@jmlanzaf said:
The contradiction is apparent. Well, to almost everyone. Parsing the market doesn't change the fact that "supply is gone" cannot be reconciled with "more... than can be absorbed".
Well, until now.. lol
Schrödinger's coins?
edited to add... Or it could be "heads I win, tails you lose".
Until you open that 1971 proof set you don't know whether the coins are dead or alive.
You can look at a small mountain of 1971` proof sets and there's no way to tell that most of the mintage is already gone. Belief and perception can blind as easily as enlighten.
@BillJones said:
The worst set, from my old man’s point of view, was the 1971 Proof set, which had no silver coin in it. It was dull and awful. That set was as dull as a dead rat. I hated it.
Except for the diamond in the rough 69 DCAM half dollar
@Coinscratch said:
Yes, and that half can tone black in the fields making it a SuperDCAM. I have a couple but none without corrosion.
People are missing the shrinking forest for the dying trees.
They simply don't grasp the fact that almost all the 1968 mint sets are gone and almost all of the survivors have a '68-P cent with big ugly black carbon spots and tarnish. I'd wager 98% of the few survivors were pulled from the sets before 1999 and soaked in alcohol before proper long terms storage.
Who did that?
They believe nice pristine '68 mint sets exist in the million and they all have MS-70 pennies. This is what we've been told since 1968, but nice Gems were unusual even then and many of the coins in these sets weren't even "chBU". Many of them were garbage and most of the rest were in @BillJones' words 'mediocre". These sets haven't been reproducing for half a century, improving, or becoming more robust. They have been ignored and neglected.
Fortunately I did stabilize some of these old coins but unfortunately I didn't stabilize enough proofs to be able to determine if it worked on them. I rarely made a notation they had been stabilized so my sample size with proofs is tiny. Taking them out of the sets certainly helped some. I had to haul a lot of proofs to the bank along with 1968 cents.
Every set of nice gemmy (MS-64+ or PRF-67) modern is getting very tough because more and more dates are getting tough.
“You can look at a small mountain of 1971` proof sets and there's no way to tell that most of the mintage is already gone. Belief and perception can blind as easily as enlighten.”
Speaking of 1971 Proof Sets, as dull, boring and horrible as they are, I am still a buyer today of up to 10,000 non-picked through (dare I say “fresh”) sets at “top dollar”. Anyone want to fill some or all of my order today?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@BillJones said:
The worst set, from my old man’s point of view, was the 1971 Proof set, which had no silver coin in it. It was dull and awful. That set was as dull as a dead rat. I hated it.
Except for the diamond in the rough 69 DCAM half dollar
I am sure it looks nice, but I don't chase such things. I have never seen one actually.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@wondercoin said:
“You can look at a small mountain of 1971` proof sets and there's no way to tell that most of the mintage is already gone. Belief and perception can blind as easily as enlighten.”
Speaking of 1971 Proof Sets, as dull, boring and horrible as they are, I am still a buyer today of up to 10,000 non-picked through (dare I say “fresh”) sets at “top dollar”. Anyone want to fill some or all of my order today?
Wondercoin.
Is your opinion that a lot of the cause of such low bids for the old proof and mint sets is that so many sets are partially or completely skunked?
I used to be on top of these markets but it's been many years. In the old days it was sufficient just to spot check them and make sure they weren't all bad but now buyers have to expect a lot of them to be hazed or worse. I know a lot of these can't be restored by any means.
I just don't know how these markets work at all any longer. I know I can no longer compete buying fresh stock and dealers rarely even let me look at them any longer no matter how much I'm willing to pay. Dealers in this area get very few in each year any longer. A lot of dealers are checking for Gems and some of the varieties before they sell them to jobbers. I bought a few cheap late date sets just a few years ago but found very little of interest. Even dealer stock looks a little picked over now days.
Do you discount bad sets or pay a premium for pristine sets even if they are picked over? The last proofs I bought were at face value because they were such a mess but I ended up taking almost all of them to the bank. It's probably a lot more difficult to get into these markets now. I don't understand why dates that can be expected to be good quality don't have a premium or discount to sets that are usually or always bad.
@wondercoin said:
“You can look at a small mountain of 1971` proof sets and there's no way to tell that most of the mintage is already gone. Belief and perception can blind as easily as enlighten.”
Speaking of 1971 Proof Sets, as dull, boring and horrible as they are, I am still a buyer today of up to 10,000 non-picked through (dare I say “fresh”) sets at “top dollar”. Anyone want to fill some or all of my order today?
Wondercoin.
Is your opinion that a lot of the cause of such low bids for the old proof and mint sets is that so many sets are partially or completely skunked?
I used to be on top of these markets but it's been many years. In the old days it was sufficient just to spot check them and make sure they weren't all bad but now buyers have to expect a lot of them to be hazed or worse. I know a lot of these can't be restored by any means.
I just don't know how these markets work at all any longer. I know I can no longer compete buying fresh stock and dealers rarely even let me look at them any longer no matter how much I'm willing to pay. Dealers in this area get very few in each year any longer. A lot of dealers are checking for Gems and some of the varieties before they sell them to jobbers. I bought a few cheap late date sets just a few years ago but found very little of interest. Even dealer stock looks a little picked over now days.
Do you discount bad sets or pay a premium for pristine sets even if they are picked over? The last proofs I bought were at face value because they were such a mess but I ended up taking almost all of them to the bank. It's probably a lot more difficult to get into these markets now. I don't understand why dates that can be expected to be good quality don't have a premium or discount to sets that are usually or always bad.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
You don't know how these markets work? You just spent a week and 50,000 words telling us how they supposedly worked...
I'm going to my happy place now.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
CK: You just mentioned “fresh” sets flowing into Coin shops with buffalo 5C and Bust 50C.
Five minutes ago, I just bought a deal of 181 “fresh” sets of 1965-1967 SMS sets at melt from a Coin and Jewelry Shop in the NW. I paid more than most any dealer is paying for this sort of material (same as I am overpaying now for clad 1971 or 1972 proof sets, etc) but happy to do so from honest dealers who guarantee they don’t even look at these modern “crap” sets after they buy them over the counter. One man’s crap is often another man’s treasure- right?
“I have a group of SMS sets. 1965sms /47 in envelope ,16 no envelope /1966sms 60 in box, 9 no box / 1967 sms 45 in box ,4 no box . Some of the packaging has either stickers or writing on them . these are otc purchases unsearched for grading . 181 sets at $13 each=$2353.”
My reply: “Confirmed” (no asking for 10 or 15 cents/set less even though I suspect I could likely get it). I prefer the good karma. lol.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
CK: You just mentioned “fresh” sets flowing into Coin shops with buffalo 5C and Bust 50C.
Five minutes ago, I just bought a deal of 181 “fresh” sets of 1965-1967 SMS sets at melt from a Coin and Jewelry Shop in the NW. I paid more than most any dealer is paying for this sort of material (same as I am overpaying now for clad 1971 or 1972 proof sets, etc) but happy to do so from honest dealers who guarantee they don’t even look at these modern “crap” sets after they buy them over the counter. One man’s crap is often another man’s treasure- right?
“I have a group of SMS sets. 1965sms /47 in envelope ,16 no envelope /1966sms 60 in box, 9 no box / 1967 sms 45 in box ,4 no box . Some of the packaging has either stickers or writing on them . these are otc purchases unsearched for grading . 181 sets at $13 each=$2353.”
My reply: “Confirmed” (no asking for 10 or 15 cents/set less even though I suspect I could likely get it). I prefer the good karma. lol.
Wondercoin
To be clear, this was today and not 1998? 😆
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
CK: You just mentioned “fresh” sets flowing into Coin shops with buffalo 5C and Bust 50C.
Five minutes ago, I just bought a deal of 181 “fresh” sets of 1965-1967 SMS sets at melt from a Coin and Jewelry Shop in the NW. I paid more than most any dealer is paying for this sort of material (same as I am overpaying now for clad 1971 or 1972 proof sets, etc) but happy to do so from honest dealers who guarantee they don’t even look at these modern “crap” sets after they buy them over the counter. One man’s crap is often another man’s treasure- right?
“I have a group of SMS sets. 1965sms /47 in envelope ,16 no envelope /1966sms 60 in box, 9 no box / 1967 sms 45 in box ,4 no box . Some of the packaging has either stickers or writing on them . these are otc purchases unsearched for grading . 181 sets at $13 each=$2353.”
My reply: “Confirmed” (no asking for 10 or 15 cents/set less even though I suspect I could likely get it). I prefer the good karma. lol.
Wondercoin
Those SMS's are bringing pretty good prices retail now. With $11.25 wholesale silver in them you couldn't do much better. Most are trading at $20 to $25. Half the coins are fine and 80% of the bad coins will clean up. Reassembling nice sets is easy and you'll 3or four FB and a couple FS. You'll get a couple nice cameos as well and maybe a variety. I know you're just looking for the best of the best and there's a good chance there'll be one but I always cut out the best 2 or 3%.
You might get one of those mushy strike almost mark free '66 quarters in that many sets.
I'm jealous. I'm not even buying any longer but might have gone for a deal like this.
I'm suddenly seeing interest in SMS rolls for the first time. It used to be you couldn't give them away and could find them for 50% over face but with the sets going higher I'm seeing bids at four to six times over face.
I don't think we're in the eye of the storm but it's coming straight toward us.
CK: You mention “$11.25 wholesale silver in them”. But, at current $87+/oz, aren’t we talking about nearly $13 in silver in every 50C coin? But, the shops want these fresh sets at 14% back of silver melt- yes? And- Forget about the other 41 cents of coins in every set from 60 years ago! Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
CK: You mention “$11.25 wholesale silver in them”. But, at current $87+/oz, aren’t we talking about nearly $13 in silver in every 50C coin? But, the shops want these fresh sets at 14% back if silver melt- yes? And- Forget about the other 41 cents of coins in every set from 60 years ago! Wondercoin
Ace pays $11.25 at $87 but they might be filled up right now but, yes, they have more silver than that.
You can get really good prices on the half dollars; usually they'll buy half dollars for a little more than bid for the whole set but all the buyers are very picky so 20% of them have to be melted. The '65 halfs get the strongest prices. I've been getting $40 and more for quarter rolls.
The SMS's are among the most under rated moderns. They've had huge attrition but more rolls survive than most mint sets and nearly as many as the proof sets. But the demand for SMS may turn out to be twice as high where the mintage is only 40% (annually). I'm a huge fan of the FB and FS because they aren't that hard to find but account for less than 1% of mintage for most of them. It takes only about five of these sets to have something scarce in them. There are also a lot of different types and finishes to attract collectors' eyes.
Clad silver is underrated too. A lot of people don't realize how many of these have been melted and the sorry condition of what's left. I think we'll actually see a premium on F and better coins before too much longer. Bags can contain as few as about 25% untarnished and unmolested coins. And they are still suffering enormous attrition.
Wondercoin - not only good karma but now you have aother happy dealer working for you.”
Coinscratch- I wouldn’t say anyone is working for me. Tomorrow, a higher buyer than me might step up on these particular sets and capture the entire market! It’s a “dog eats dog” universe out there and I know it!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Fortunately for the little guys like me these sets will continue to seep out from the common public and find there way into local shops. Obscure amounts in shallow places where the bigger fish are seldom seen.
I know it’s a numbers game but I also know it requires a great deal of luck and being at the right place at the right time is everything.
Is that 1,000 words ?
(No, I'm not going to count them).
No problem, Word Counter came up with 450 words with 2,864 characters.
But it seemed more like 1,000 at least. And people wonder why they get put on ignore. (not you dcarr)
But serious off-topic (if this thread has a topic anymore) question. Can you use the lowest cost clad proof sets for making restrikes?
I have heard that you won't do a 1959 Lincoln mule due to the one from the Goldman auctions, but how about a 1960 Mule Lincoln wheat? Thanks!
.
Proof coins work just the same for over-striking as normal uncirculated coins.
The one exception is the the planchet integrity of circulation-strike 1960-1964 silver coins is rather poor, especially the closer they are to 1964. In other words, leading up to 1964, the silver coins have more and more subsurface slag pockets and rolled-in particles that can come loose and/or become exposed during the over-striking process. But I have noticed that the proof silver coins (including 1964) have much better planchets and do not cause problems like the non-proof coins. I believe the reason for this is the hectic production environment of the 1960s.
As a result, if I am buying 90% silver Roosevelt Dimes, Washington Quarters, or Franklin Half Dollars for over-striking, I try to pick out coins that are 1959 or before.
PS:
I did a 1958-D MEMORIAL cent and that is the only such "mule" cent that I am inclined to do: moonlightmint.com/blog_20.htm
@cladking said:
Most of the rest of the sets are gone now.
Ok. Most of everything ever struck will eventually be gone, too. Nothing lasts forever.
This is quite true but very highly misleading. It is especially misleading when it comes to coins and proof sets. Significant percentages of mintages can survive for some coins and especially gold and silver. Even ancient coins can survive in "large" percentages but something like an aluminum 1950-E East German 10p is whittled down to the tens of thousands from the tens of millions and most of these are in highly degraded condition unlike most gold minted in the last five centuries.
Despite not being very old more than half of something like 1969 proof sets are gone and many of the survivors are tarnished or hazed.
Attrition on most moderns is far higher than even the attrition on the much older Morgan dollars. How many 1983 pennies are left? 1966?
@cladking said:
In the '80's and '90's I was chased out of shops for merely saying I liked clad quarters.
I'll take "Things That Never Happened" for $1000, Alex.
Even if it is hyperbole, I would not be surprised if it happened as that tends to be the sentiment. I honestly think it is time to discontinue the clad proof set.
Really? How many people have you seen chased out of shops?
If anything, dealers would welcome someone to come in and buy their buckets of clad.
Unless you are picky about clad and cherry picking.
@cladking said:
In the '80's and '90's I was chased out of shops for merely saying I liked clad quarters.
I'll take "Things That Never Happened" for $1000, Alex.
Even if it is hyperbole, I would not be surprised if it happened as that tends to be the sentiment. I honestly think it is time to discontinue the clad proof set.
Really? How many people have you seen chased out of shops?
If anything, dealers would welcome someone to come in and buy their buckets of clad.
Unless you are picky about clad and cherry picking.
I don't believe this was the problem. After twelve or fifteen minutes of picking over his entire stock I had found about $50 worth of stuff to buy including a few foreign and some tokens but it was mostly mint sets. When I was ready to pay he was still all smiles but only lost it when I told him it wasn't ikes I had wanted in the mint sets but quarters. He asked! I told him the truth.
Many people hate clad coins almost as much as I did in 1965. And then I hated them more as I watched the abysmal quality of the coins being produced and a bill in Congress to outlaw coin collecting. First the coin market was destroyed, then the coin hobby and then Congress wanted my collection. What was there not to hate; the debased worthless mass produced garbage in circulation?
The hate simply evolved into apathy and neglect over the years but it's still rampant in every coin shop./
@olympicsos said:
Unless you are picky about clad and cherry picking.
I know what "random" is supposed to look like so I know when something is culls or when it's been salted. I can usually find a few things I need in any random grouping but I don't even look at the culls. Even though I'm picky I rarely take very long and I also leave dealer stock in better condition than I found it by restoring order or leaving packaging for other mint sets. I usually just paid a small premiums for mint and proof sets I wanted (bid plus 5 or 10%). I always tallied up the bill myself and many dealers didn't check my math.
If they weren't busy we often talked about coins or something.
‘’Unless you are picky about clad and cherry picking.”
Exactly. Let’s say I want to hunt down a key date high grade Clad 50C or Ike and I want to spend the entire day in the shop screening hundreds and hundreds of mint and proof sets looking for that “needle in the haystack”. How many times will the dealer happily welcome me to do so when, in the end, I buy $50 or $60 worth of material after spending 4-6 hours getting handed these hundreds of sets that I cherry-pick the best 2%?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I don't believe this was the problem. After twelve or fifteen minutes of picking over his entire stock I had found about $50 worth of stuff to buy including a few foreign and some tokens but it was mostly mint sets. When I was ready to pay he was still all smiles but only lost it when I told him it wasn't ikes I had wanted in the mint sets but quarters. He asked! I told him the truth.
I'm still not buying this story, atleast not your version of it. There is no way that he would have snapped like that for no reason.
Previously in this thread you've also said these things, which provide some clues:
In the '80's and '90's I was chased out of shops for merely saying I liked clad quarters.
>
I was a much more imposing figure in those days but one old geezer in Ohio was threatening to jump the counter to slug me while being restrained by his son. I had already gone through all his stuff and was about to pay for it when he asked which of the Ikes caught my fancy. When I told him it was the quarters he became irate...
>
There was another freak once (WW II vet) who was selling cars partially made in Japan and when I complained about the quality of his repair shop started jumping up and down screaming about how we beat them in WW II and should have made them pay. Quite an attitude for someone who hired incompetent managers to fix the cars he sold. The Japanese car was great, the repair shop was the problem.
"Imposing figure"? "Complained about the quality of his repair shop"?
It's pretty obvious that you probably swaggered into those places pontificating about your view of how they should be conducting their businesses. That would explain the reactions you received.
@JBK said:
It's pretty obvious that you probably swaggered into those places pontificating about your view of how they should be conducting their businesses. That would explain the reactions you received.
I am the proverbial bull in the china shop. Once after commandeering a tour bus to visit all the Smithsonian museums instead of seeing the city I broke away from the tour group and wandered deep into the Capitol. I only broke stride when I came upon a couple guys in sunglasses on either side of the hallway in $1000 suits. If I hadn't blinked I'd probably have gone much further.
But I have never imposed myself on anyone. I came, I saw, I acted like I owned the place. It's not so much my size, athleticism, or physique that makes me "imposing"; it's the fact I own every place. -Very low key though as I always let employees do their job without my interference. I'm not that big and I'm not threatening.
The guy didn't like clad or mebbe my right guard left my guard. I don't know. He turned suddenly right after I said I collect clad quarters. I was with a buddy and he didn't see anything either.
This wasn't the only time I encountered people put off by moderns. Maybe everyone's used to moderns now days but they were not back in the old days. Madison Avenue used pictures of old silver coinage in all advertising until 1993. Today they use modern coins but it's often proofs instead of worn or BU coins. Numismatic News listed everything at the same price until the early '80's. PCGS wouldn't grade moderns before about 1996. The US mint claimed there mint set coins were just like all the other coins that came out of the mint until 1996. The mint was opposed to the state quarter program until Diane Wolf convinced them they'd make a lot of money with it. People didn't save BU coins even in 1982. The vault manager for the First National Bank of East Chicago said he actually spoke to several cohorts and none had ever heard of anyone requesting bags (or rolls) of new coin. There were only five dealers in the whole country selling BU rolls of quarters and the largest of them, Julian Jarvis, said he didn't even distribute 2 whole bags of 1969-P's and took the balance back to the bank around 1971.
If you were there you'd have seen that there were only two ways to deal with moderns; hate them or ignore them. When people saw me doing neither it did get attention and sometimes highly negative attention. I spoke to a lot of people including individuals at the Federal Reserve and mint so I know what was going on.
A lot of people still hate clads. It might not be as emotional as it used to be but suffice to say most are never going to collect or promote clad quarters. I don't believe this applies to the new generation of collectors we see in Charmy's (@ThePennyLady) reports and I know it doesn't apply to the general public. The disdain for moderns is fading into the past.
I always thought I could affect this equation but now I know it merely required the passage of time and a whole lot of time has passed. It was fun, anyway.
If you want, we can build the next move — the one that ties this back to the modern scarcity crisis and why the hobby still doesn’t understand what’s coming.
@wondercoin said:
‘’Unless you are picky about clad and cherry picking.”
Exactly. Let’s say I want to hunt down a key date high grade Clad 50C or Ike and I want to spend the entire day in the shop screening hundreds and hundreds of mint and proof sets looking for that “needle in the haystack”. How many times will the dealer happily welcome me to do so when, in the end, I buy $50 or $60 worth of material after spending 4-6 hours getting handed these hundreds of sets that I cherry-pick the best 2%?
Wondercoin.
Most gave me permission to serve myself. I never stayed more than a couple hours. If they didn't want to do it, I left.
It dawned on me last night that my favorite place where I have scored some really nice and profitable mint sets, that I had been putting off buying any of their proof sets. And some of these may have been from the same collection that I had found silver coins and tokens inside the mint sets.
Wondering about the possibilities It took me a while to fall asleep realizing I had let a possible massive score sitting on the table for months. As soon as I got a chance to leave work early today, I headed straight down there a three hour tour. Only to find out that just yesterday someone had come in and bought $7000 worth of their clad proof sets. They didn’t even take the silver. I took those today.
The dealer did mention that he was also a dealer buying them for his stock. And the lady that was being served in front of me who was pillaging the remaining sets was apparently a whatnot seller.
Comments
Until you open that 1971 proof set you don't know whether the coins are dead or alive.
You can look at a small mountain of 1971` proof sets and there's no way to tell that most of the mintage is already gone. Belief and perception can blind as easily as enlighten.
Except for the diamond in the rough 69 DCAM half dollar
Yes, and that half can tone black in the fields making it a SuperDCAM. I have a couple but none without corrosion.
People are missing the shrinking forest for the dying trees.
They simply don't grasp the fact that almost all the 1968 mint sets are gone and almost all of the survivors have a '68-P cent with big ugly black carbon spots and tarnish. I'd wager 98% of the few survivors were pulled from the sets before 1999 and soaked in alcohol before proper long terms storage.
Who did that?
They believe nice pristine '68 mint sets exist in the million and they all have MS-70 pennies. This is what we've been told since 1968, but nice Gems were unusual even then and many of the coins in these sets weren't even "chBU". Many of them were garbage and most of the rest were in @BillJones' words 'mediocre". These sets haven't been reproducing for half a century, improving, or becoming more robust. They have been ignored and neglected.
Fortunately I did stabilize some of these old coins but unfortunately I didn't stabilize enough proofs to be able to determine if it worked on them. I rarely made a notation they had been stabilized so my sample size with proofs is tiny. Taking them out of the sets certainly helped some. I had to haul a lot of proofs to the bank along with 1968 cents.
Every set of nice gemmy (MS-64+ or PRF-67) modern is getting very tough because more and more dates are getting tough.
“You can look at a small mountain of 1971` proof sets and there's no way to tell that most of the mintage is already gone. Belief and perception can blind as easily as enlighten.”
Speaking of 1971 Proof Sets, as dull, boring and horrible as they are, I am still a buyer today of up to 10,000 non-picked through (dare I say “fresh”) sets at “top dollar”. Anyone want to fill some or all of my order today?
Wondercoin.
I am sure it looks nice, but I don't chase such things. I have never seen one actually.
Is your opinion that a lot of the cause of such low bids for the old proof and mint sets is that so many sets are partially or completely skunked?
I used to be on top of these markets but it's been many years. In the old days it was sufficient just to spot check them and make sure they weren't all bad but now buyers have to expect a lot of them to be hazed or worse. I know a lot of these can't be restored by any means.
I just don't know how these markets work at all any longer. I know I can no longer compete buying fresh stock and dealers rarely even let me look at them any longer no matter how much I'm willing to pay. Dealers in this area get very few in each year any longer. A lot of dealers are checking for Gems and some of the varieties before they sell them to jobbers. I bought a few cheap late date sets just a few years ago but found very little of interest. Even dealer stock looks a little picked over now days.
Do you discount bad sets or pay a premium for pristine sets even if they are picked over? The last proofs I bought were at face value because they were such a mess but I ended up taking almost all of them to the bank. It's probably a lot more difficult to get into these markets now. I don't understand why dates that can be expected to be good quality don't have a premium or discount to sets that are usually or always bad.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
You don't know how these markets work? You just spent a week and 50,000 words telling us how they supposedly worked...
I'm going to my happy place now.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I know exactly how they worked until 1998.
I know most original sets still flow into coin shops with collections of buffalo nickels and bust half dollars.
Most of the rest of the sets are gone now.
Ommmmm. Ommmmmm. Ommmmm.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Ok. Most of everything ever struck will eventually be gone, too. Nothing lasts forever.
CK: You just mentioned “fresh” sets flowing into Coin shops with buffalo 5C and Bust 50C.
Five minutes ago, I just bought a deal of 181 “fresh” sets of 1965-1967 SMS sets at melt from a Coin and Jewelry Shop in the NW. I paid more than most any dealer is paying for this sort of material (same as I am overpaying now for clad 1971 or 1972 proof sets, etc) but happy to do so from honest dealers who guarantee they don’t even look at these modern “crap” sets after they buy them over the counter. One man’s crap is often another man’s treasure- right?
“I have a group of SMS sets. 1965sms /47 in envelope ,16 no envelope /1966sms 60 in box, 9 no box / 1967 sms 45 in box ,4 no box . Some of the packaging has either stickers or writing on them . these are otc purchases unsearched for grading . 181 sets at $13 each=$2353.”
My reply: “Confirmed” (no asking for 10 or 15 cents/set less even though I suspect I could likely get it). I prefer the good karma. lol.
Wondercoin
To be clear, this was today and not 1998? 😆
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Those SMS's are bringing pretty good prices retail now. With $11.25 wholesale silver in them you couldn't do much better. Most are trading at $20 to $25. Half the coins are fine and 80% of the bad coins will clean up. Reassembling nice sets is easy and you'll 3or four FB and a couple FS. You'll get a couple nice cameos as well and maybe a variety. I know you're just looking for the best of the best and there's a good chance there'll be one but I always cut out the best 2 or 3%.
You might get one of those mushy strike almost mark free '66 quarters in that many sets.
I'm jealous. I'm not even buying any longer but might have gone for a deal like this.
I'm suddenly seeing interest in SMS rolls for the first time. It used to be you couldn't give them away and could find them for 50% over face but with the sets going higher I'm seeing bids at four to six times over face.
I don't think we're in the eye of the storm but it's coming straight toward us.
CK: You mention “$11.25 wholesale silver in them”. But, at current $87+/oz, aren’t we talking about nearly $13 in silver in every 50C coin? But, the shops want these fresh sets at 14% back of silver melt- yes? And- Forget about the other 41 cents of coins in every set from 60 years ago! Wondercoin
“To be clear, this was today and not 1998? 😆”
The sad thing is the sets were -33- years old even back in 1998 and getting No respect!
Wondercoin.
Edited to add- The sets cost $4 from the Mint in 1965.
$4.00 in 1965 is worth approximately $41.16 to $41.55 in 2026, assuming an average inflation rate of roughly
3.9%.
Ace pays $11.25 at $87 but they might be filled up right now but, yes, they have more silver than that.
You can get really good prices on the half dollars; usually they'll buy half dollars for a little more than bid for the whole set but all the buyers are very picky so 20% of them have to be melted. The '65 halfs get the strongest prices. I've been getting $40 and more for quarter rolls.
The SMS's are among the most under rated moderns. They've had huge attrition but more rolls survive than most mint sets and nearly as many as the proof sets. But the demand for SMS may turn out to be twice as high where the mintage is only 40% (annually). I'm a huge fan of the FB and FS because they aren't that hard to find but account for less than 1% of mintage for most of them. It takes only about five of these sets to have something scarce in them. There are also a lot of different types and finishes to attract collectors' eyes.
Clad silver is underrated too. A lot of people don't realize how many of these have been melted and the sorry condition of what's left. I think we'll actually see a premium on F and better coins before too much longer. Bags can contain as few as about 25% untarnished and unmolested coins. And they are still suffering enormous attrition.
If they were, would you have had the same opportunity to buy them today?
Wondercoin - not only good karma but now you have aother happy dealer working for you.
Wondercoin - not only good karma but now you have aother happy dealer working for you.”
Coinscratch- I wouldn’t say anyone is working for me. Tomorrow, a higher buyer than me might step up on these particular sets and capture the entire market! It’s a “dog eats dog” universe out there and I know it!
Wondercoin
Fortunately for the little guys like me these sets will continue to seep out from the common public and find there way into local shops. Obscure amounts in shallow places where the bigger fish are seldom seen.
I know it’s a numbers game but I also know it requires a great deal of luck and being at the right place at the right time is everything.
.
Proof coins work just the same for over-striking as normal uncirculated coins.
The one exception is the the planchet integrity of circulation-strike 1960-1964 silver coins is rather poor, especially the closer they are to 1964. In other words, leading up to 1964, the silver coins have more and more subsurface slag pockets and rolled-in particles that can come loose and/or become exposed during the over-striking process. But I have noticed that the proof silver coins (including 1964) have much better planchets and do not cause problems like the non-proof coins. I believe the reason for this is the hectic production environment of the 1960s.
As a result, if I am buying 90% silver Roosevelt Dimes, Washington Quarters, or Franklin Half Dollars for over-striking, I try to pick out coins that are 1959 or before.
PS:
I did a 1958-D MEMORIAL cent and that is the only such "mule" cent that I am inclined to do:
moonlightmint.com/blog_20.htm
.
This is quite true but very highly misleading. It is especially misleading when it comes to coins and proof sets. Significant percentages of mintages can survive for some coins and especially gold and silver. Even ancient coins can survive in "large" percentages but something like an aluminum 1950-E East German 10p is whittled down to the tens of thousands from the tens of millions and most of these are in highly degraded condition unlike most gold minted in the last five centuries.
Despite not being very old more than half of something like 1969 proof sets are gone and many of the survivors are tarnished or hazed.
Attrition on most moderns is far higher than even the attrition on the much older Morgan dollars. How many 1983 pennies are left? 1966?
Unless you are picky about clad and cherry picking.
I don't believe this was the problem. After twelve or fifteen minutes of picking over his entire stock I had found about $50 worth of stuff to buy including a few foreign and some tokens but it was mostly mint sets. When I was ready to pay he was still all smiles but only lost it when I told him it wasn't ikes I had wanted in the mint sets but quarters. He asked! I told him the truth.
Many people hate clad coins almost as much as I did in 1965. And then I hated them more as I watched the abysmal quality of the coins being produced and a bill in Congress to outlaw coin collecting. First the coin market was destroyed, then the coin hobby and then Congress wanted my collection. What was there not to hate; the debased worthless mass produced garbage in circulation?
The hate simply evolved into apathy and neglect over the years but it's still rampant in every coin shop./
I know what "random" is supposed to look like so I know when something is culls or when it's been salted. I can usually find a few things I need in any random grouping but I don't even look at the culls. Even though I'm picky I rarely take very long and I also leave dealer stock in better condition than I found it by restoring order or leaving packaging for other mint sets. I usually just paid a small premiums for mint and proof sets I wanted (bid plus 5 or 10%). I always tallied up the bill myself and many dealers didn't check my math.
If they weren't busy we often talked about coins or something.
With all the melting going on I'd be surprised if accurate estimates of survival could be made, especially for modern gold coins.
No idea. Maybe ask over on the World & Ancient Coins Forum?
‘’Unless you are picky about clad and cherry picking.”
Exactly. Let’s say I want to hunt down a key date high grade Clad 50C or Ike and I want to spend the entire day in the shop screening hundreds and hundreds of mint and proof sets looking for that “needle in the haystack”. How many times will the dealer happily welcome me to do so when, in the end, I buy $50 or $60 worth of material after spending 4-6 hours getting handed these hundreds of sets that I cherry-pick the best 2%?
Wondercoin.
I'm still not buying this story, atleast not your version of it. There is no way that he would have snapped like that for no reason.
Previously in this thread you've also said these things, which provide some clues:
>
>
"Imposing figure"? "Complained about the quality of his repair shop"?
It's pretty obvious that you probably swaggered into those places pontificating about your view of how they should be conducting their businesses. That would explain the reactions you received.
I am the proverbial bull in the china shop. Once after commandeering a tour bus to visit all the Smithsonian museums instead of seeing the city I broke away from the tour group and wandered deep into the Capitol. I only broke stride when I came upon a couple guys in sunglasses on either side of the hallway in $1000 suits. If I hadn't blinked I'd probably have gone much further.
But I have never imposed myself on anyone. I came, I saw, I acted like I owned the place. It's not so much my size, athleticism, or physique that makes me "imposing"; it's the fact I own every place. -Very low key though as I always let employees do their job without my interference. I'm not that big and I'm not threatening.
The guy didn't like clad or mebbe my right guard left my guard. I don't know. He turned suddenly right after I said I collect clad quarters. I was with a buddy and he didn't see anything either.
This wasn't the only time I encountered people put off by moderns. Maybe everyone's used to moderns now days but they were not back in the old days. Madison Avenue used pictures of old silver coinage in all advertising until 1993. Today they use modern coins but it's often proofs instead of worn or BU coins. Numismatic News listed everything at the same price until the early '80's. PCGS wouldn't grade moderns before about 1996. The US mint claimed there mint set coins were just like all the other coins that came out of the mint until 1996. The mint was opposed to the state quarter program until Diane Wolf convinced them they'd make a lot of money with it. People didn't save BU coins even in 1982. The vault manager for the First National Bank of East Chicago said he actually spoke to several cohorts and none had ever heard of anyone requesting bags (or rolls) of new coin. There were only five dealers in the whole country selling BU rolls of quarters and the largest of them, Julian Jarvis, said he didn't even distribute 2 whole bags of 1969-P's and took the balance back to the bank around 1971.
If you were there you'd have seen that there were only two ways to deal with moderns; hate them or ignore them. When people saw me doing neither it did get attention and sometimes highly negative attention. I spoke to a lot of people including individuals at the Federal Reserve and mint so I know what was going on.
A lot of people still hate clads. It might not be as emotional as it used to be but suffice to say most are never going to collect or promote clad quarters. I don't believe this applies to the new generation of collectors we see in Charmy's (@ThePennyLady) reports and I know it doesn't apply to the general public. The disdain for moderns is fading into the past.
I always thought I could affect this equation but now I know it merely required the passage of time and a whole lot of time has passed. It was fun, anyway.
Copilot-
If you want, we can build the next move — the one that ties this back to the modern scarcity crisis and why the hobby still doesn’t understand what’s coming.
Most gave me permission to serve myself. I never stayed more than a couple hours. If they didn't want to do it, I left.
It dawned on me last night that my favorite place where I have scored some really nice and profitable mint sets, that I had been putting off buying any of their proof sets. And some of these may have been from the same collection that I had found silver coins and tokens inside the mint sets.
Wondering about the possibilities It took me a while to fall asleep realizing I had let a possible massive score sitting on the table for months. As soon as I got a chance to leave work early today, I headed straight down there a three hour tour. Only to find out that just yesterday someone had come in and bought $7000 worth of their clad proof sets. They didn’t even take the silver. I took those today.
The dealer did mention that he was also a dealer buying them for his stock. And the lady that was being served in front of me who was pillaging the remaining sets was apparently a whatnot seller.
Back to the drawing board, I digress.