The strategy works if you are able to get into the non-CAC coin at a compelling, non-CAC price. Then, of course when you sell, you will receive a non-CAC price as well, but you are not really losing in this scenario. If your goal is to own nice, problem-free coins that fit your taste and collecting goals, this isn't a bad strategy.
Of course, if you buy low you can sell low and be fine financially. However, the post I was quoting was specifically stating that high end dealers such as Laura or Rick could sell non-CAC coins, but essentially everyone else would likely need a CAC sticker on such pieces. So, we already know that Laura or Rick are not going to sell you a wonderful, non-CAC coin at bottom of the barrel pricing, which means that if you bay a coin from them, unless you can get it into a CAC sticker you will take a loss upon resale since the vast majority of buyers are unknown, anonymous, no reputation collectors who will have to sell on ebay or to other dealers.
As was already stated, she did indeed offer the coin retail for just a 10% markup over wholesale non sticker price. This leaves plenty of room for not taking a bath upon resale
To be honest, I have been pivoting in this direction and have entertained the idea of some type of approval sticker that id buy back at x% premium in my specific area of focus. There are far too few pioneer coins to go around, and seeing some that end up being condemned because they "failed" makes me question the position we've ended up in. I agree with CAC about 70-90% of the time, depending on the series.....but I have had some perplexing head scratchers lately, for both unjust condemnation and uninspiring approval. As you mentioned before, I think it's not an intentional consequence, but until humans aren't steering the ship anymore, there's always an element of subjectivity that will vary from one to the next. It concerns me for the future, when supply is not re-entering the market in the same cyclical frequency, and I don't know if it does any justice to the hobby itself .
@1madman said:
All that matters to her is some sort of cac affiliation with the coins she sells, so if it’s in a pcgs non stickered holder, she can get it in a cacg holder, and that should satisfy her business model.
I concur with this. If the reason is because the coin is "over graded", then put it in a CACG slab for the "right" grade. Problem solved.
For some of us who see a coin and aren't able to determine whether the coin has a surface issue, the question is whether it would cross at CACG. In this case, one may not wish to go through the trouble.
CACG can/will drop a coin to a much lower than its wear suggests the grade to be based upon surface issues. This coin has at least VF30 details yet is graded CACG VG10. I showed this coin on the Facebook LSCC site, and EVERYBODY thought I was screwed, but I knew there were some problems with "black schmutz" and associated corrosion on the surfaces and wasn't entirely surprised. I just didn't think they would drop the grade five grading steps.
I can see silently net-grading it, but VG10 seems ludicrous. It should have still graded some level of VF in my opinion. Nice coin.
Not my series, but per the old Photgrade guide, VF20 must have a complete & sharp LIBERTY. Agree the rest of the coin looks mid VF, so not sure what happened to that coin.
The strategy works if you are able to get into the non-CAC coin at a compelling, non-CAC price. Then, of course when you sell, you will receive a non-CAC price as well, but you are not really losing in this scenario. If your goal is to own nice, problem-free coins that fit your taste and collecting goals, this isn't a bad strategy.
Of course, if you buy low you can sell low and be fine financially. However, the post I was quoting was specifically stating that high end dealers such as Laura or Rick could sell non-CAC coins, but essentially everyone else would likely need a CAC sticker on such pieces. So, we already know that Laura or Rick are not going to sell you a wonderful, non-CAC coin at bottom of the barrel pricing, which means that if you bay a coin from them, unless you can get it into a CAC sticker you will take a loss upon resale since the vast majority of buyers are unknown, anonymous, no reputation collectors who will have to sell on ebay or to other dealers.
As was already stated, she did indeed offer the coin retail for just a 10% markup over wholesale non sticker price. This leaves plenty of room for not taking a bath upon resale
Correct, and the hypothetical hasn't been put to the test in the real world since she doesn't retail non-CAC coins for the most part. I think I can speak for many dealers, certainly not all of them, but I wouldn't expect to sell a non-stickered coin for the same retail prices of the usual beaned counterparts, but if it's somewhere in the middle, the margin is adjusted to allow for the same buy-sell spread, so no one "takes a bath". I don't retail anything I wouldn't want to buy back, and that's why I don't mind offering default buyback for a specific period of time, I want any collector's who purchase to have that confidence, and I think the buyback may bridge the gap on the "non stickered but still worth half of that premium" coins that just miss the mark.
TDN - I 100% agree with you that Laura should be offering very high end nonCAC coins. Whenever I attend shows there is just a small percentage of CAC coins being offered by dealers right now. So from a business point of view, I feel that JA may not agree that its a high end coin, but Laura might think otherwise. Many collectors trust Laura's opinion so I would feel comfortable buying a nonCAC coin from Laura knowing its top quality (but not CAC'd).
"At the moment" is a significant and noteworthy distinction in connection with the subjective nature of grading. Opinions of TPG and CAC can change and so can the opinions of a coin at any given time. The positive attributes of a coin really do not change unless the coin is subsequently enhanced. However, the opinions of those positive attributes can change- especially over time and based on a review of similar situated coins and the surviving population. And a top pop coin is no guarantee that it is finest example as there is a clear difference between eye appeal and the natural state of preservation of a coin in contrast to a higher technical grade with a sterile look that simply fails to capture what matters. Slabs and stickers really do not change the coin, they merely frame and shape a narrative for those that seek it.
1855 Florin
A picture often can illustrate points much easier than words.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@Nephilim said:
This is all so interesting.
What is the takeaway for most collectors?
Buy nice coins you like. Don't be a slave to stickers because the coin can often be overpriced.
This is spot on. Buy the coins you like whether they have a sticker or not.
Having been branded as a low life for not endorsing the CAC concept 100%, I don’t give a rat’s tail about what CAC does. It drove me from the U.S. coin hobby for several years. I collected British and Roman imperial coins instead. When I see the grinning CAC cartoon logo, I have negative feelings.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@tradedollarnut said:
Laura wouldn’t have bought it in the first place so the theoretical is moot
Respectfully, I disagree. There is always the possibility that she and PCGS missed it.
I sold an expensive PCGS coin through a Legend auction that was by submitted by Legend to CAC which failed. Everybody said it was a really nice coin. Legend did not know why it failed. After the auction I had the courage to ask JA why it failed. PVC.
What if Albanese got it wrong, and Laura and PCGS were right? I do not know Albanese, but perhaps he is not as perfect as you may think. We are all human and we all makes mistakes from time to time.
Here's a notion...buy the coin and not the holder (or sticker).
Question 7: What percentage of coins CAC reviews sticker?
Answer 7: As of April 1, 2023, CAC has stickered approximately 43% of the coins received.
Question 15: How many graders look at each coin?
Answer 15: At least two graders look at each coin.
Question 16: Does John Albanese look at every coin?
Answer 16: Yes, John reviews each coin that comes in.
Question 7: What percentage of coins CAC reviews sticker?
Answer 7: As of April 1, 2023, CAC has stickered approximately 43% of the coins received.
Not that my opinion matters much. But 43% is far too high in my opinion if the point of CAC is to highlight “top-quality examples” (taking that quote directly from their website).
43% can’t all be “top quality”. Sure there’s some bias in what is being sent in and what isn’t. But even thinking about that, 43% seems too high.
Might as well just give them all a participation trophy at that point.
Question 7: What percentage of coins CAC reviews sticker?
Answer 7: As of April 1, 2023, CAC has stickered approximately 43% of the coins received.
Not that my opinion matters much. But 43% is far too high in my opinion if the point of CAC is to highlight “top-quality examples” (taking that quote directly from their website).
43% can’t all be “top quality”. Sure there’s some bias in what is being sent in and what isn’t. But even thinking about that, 43% seems too high.
Might as well just give them all a participation trophy at that point.
Tell that to the collectors who have carefully screened their best coins before sending them in.
Question 7: What percentage of coins CAC reviews sticker?
Answer 7: As of April 1, 2023, CAC has stickered approximately 43% of the coins received.
Not that my opinion matters much. But 43% is far too high in my opinion if the point of CAC is to highlight “top-quality examples” (taking that quote directly from their website).
43% can’t all be “top quality”. Sure there’s some bias in what is being sent in and what isn’t. But even thinking about that, 43% seems too high.
Might as well just give them all a participation trophy at that point.
That figure hasn’t been updated in 3 years, and nevertheless, it’s fairly useless now. With each passing year, more and more had already been there that the rate would have progressively lowered continuously, but there’s many variables.
Consider that dealer were only sending 30% of their inventory, then the 43% figure would sound about right.
But also, that doesn’t factor in the coins that have been in 6 different holders across 2 grade levels. and been stickers in 2 out of those 6. So many coins upgrade and sticker again, the coins that stand out look good in almost any grade, and they skew the numbers. That number should be retired though, it serves no purpose anymore.
And to that point, we have all the data we need in the CAC pops. Pick almost any pre civil war issue of consequential value and the CAC pop vs that of the combined totals from both Tpgs will often be in the 10-15% range. My hit rate would be much different than someone sending ever set of OGH Merc dimes.
There is no black and white, no “right or wrong”. No “correct vs incorrect”.
There is only the holder grade that it currently lives in, and a very subjective market consensus that attempts to arbitrate it.
It seems a reasonable suggestion to me. I won't buy an unstickered coin from most dealers unless I can see it in hand but I have numerous times from Doug Winter, who will explain why he thinks a coin did not sticker. Would do the same if Laura or George told me they liked a coin for grade.
George has more than once told me to pass on a coin that was stickered. There are a few pair of eyes I trust far over my own, even in series I focus on.
None of this changes that I am a believer in CAC.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
And I will add that in my 5 years in this board, I can’t recall anyone ever having been chastised or branded as “less than” because they didn’t buy into the sticker concept with the full weight of their wallet….I don’t think JA ever had a fun to anyone’s head, so my presumption is that some of these perceived victimizations manifest from internal or historical resentments.
I think you should start selling nice non doctored non CAC coins as well. That PR67 trade would have been a screaming bargain for someone at $22.5k and there are others. I said all along that CAC would hurt your business because someone else would get the money for their expertise- you can take that niche back by selling ‘Laura select’ coins at appropriate prices. The discount for non cac non doctored coins is simply too high.
I don’t disagree, but I’m curious. Did you actually see the Trade Dollar in hand? Based on the pics, I wouldn’t have been tempted to buy it sight unseen.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In my opinion, the key to this whole conversation is know WHY a coin did not sticker! With that knowledge, you can make an informed decision, based on that reason, the coins merits, and price!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Question 7: What percentage of coins CAC reviews sticker?
Answer 7: As of April 1, 2023, CAC has stickered approximately 43% of the coins received.
Not that my opinion matters much. But 43% is far too high in my opinion if the point of CAC is to highlight “top-quality examples” (taking that quote directly from their website).
43% can’t all be “top quality”. Sure there’s some bias in what is being sent in and what isn’t. But even thinking about that, 43% seems too high.
Might as well just give them all a participation trophy at that point.
If you think 43% is too high to be "solid for the grade" (which is the definition), then we should really hate the 57% that fail to meet that (by your estimation) low standard.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@PeakRarities said:
And I will add that in my 5 years in this board, I can’t recall anyone ever having been chastised or branded as “less than” because they didn’t buy into the sticker concept with the full weight of their wallet….I don’t think JA ever had a fun to anyone’s head, so my presumption is that some of these perceived victimizations manifest from internal or historical resentments.
JA is constantly holding a fun to our head!
I generally agree with what you are saying, as you've narrowly defined it. I don't recall anyone ever being told they should open their wallet. However, many anti-CACers have been criticized for their negativity.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@tradedollarnut said:
No - but where did I say I’d buy it sight unseen?
You didn't. I will say, for myself, the reason I like CAC is for sight unseen purchases. I don't mind buying raw coins if I've seen them myself. But when I'm buying at a distance, I prefer TPG and I triply prefer TPG + CAC because it is far less likely there will be any negative surprises.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@PeakRarities said:
And I will add that in my 5 years in this board, I can’t recall anyone ever having been chastised or branded as “less than” because they didn’t buy into the sticker concept with the full weight of their wallet….I don’t think JA ever had a fun to anyone’s head, so my presumption is that some of these perceived victimizations manifest from internal or historical resentments.
JA is constantly holding a fun to our head!
I generally agree with what you are saying, as you've narrowly defined it. I don't recall anyone ever being told they should open their wallet. However, many anti-CACers have been criticized for their negativity.
The venom that was directed toward me was over the top. At one point it got so bad that John Albanese called me to apologize for the comments of some of his supporters. The PCGS monitor sent me a PM advising me to just put a certain person on “ignore” because there was not anything the monitor could do to stop it. Why they were so concerned about one collector’s opinion is beyond me.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@winesteven said:
In my opinion, the key to this whole conversation is know WHY a coin did not sticker! With that knowledge, you can make an informed decision, based on that reason, the coins merits, and price!
Steve
Sure, that would be helpful, but this information is most often not available when faced with a buying decision.
Seated Half Society member #38
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress, running like a water color in the rain...."
@tradedollarnut said:
No - but where did I say I’d buy it sight unseen?
You didn’t. You said “ it would have been a screaming bargain for someone at 22.5K”. Which to me implied that you have an opinion about the quality of the coin.
FWIW, I haven’t seen the coin in hand, so I don’t have an opinion about it. But the pics are good enough that I can say I doubt I’d like the coin as a 67, or even at 22.5K. The thing that bothers me most in the pics is the upper right quadrant of the obverse.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Ok but you’re forgetting one inferable fact that I have in my possession- laura offered it to a client. I absolutely positively am 100% certain that would never happen if she didn’t like the coin.
@winesteven said:
In my opinion, the key to this whole conversation is know WHY a coin did not sticker! With that knowledge, you can make an informed decision, based on that reason, the coins merits, and price!
Steve
Sure, that would be helpful, but this information is most often not available when faced with a buying decision.
Perhaps you should look at the item and make up your own mind. I am sure that CAC does not want to get into arguments as to why something didn’t sticker.
On the other side, I might ask why something DID sticker. I was criticized for saying that CAC gets it right more than 95% of the time.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
That I do Bill! I've bought non-stickered coins for which I am quite happy to own. I also own a couple of CAC'd coins that I question why they stickered.
Seated Half Society member #38
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress, running like a water color in the rain...."
You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.
I've posted about a coin several times that was originally sold by legend some years ago in pcgs , cac that end for thousands over price guide.
The coin in question is very toned and has very deep scratches on both sides.
The coin is currently in a new pcgs holder with a new cert number and new cac sticker and sold for thousands again over price guide.
Again nobody cares that cac blessed it with such deep scratches.
There are many great coins with cac, but look at the coin if you're laying out that much over guide.
@winesteven said:
In my opinion, the key to this whole conversation is know WHY a coin did not sticker! With that knowledge, you can make an informed decision, based on that reason, the coins merits, and price!
Steve
Sure, that would be helpful, but this information is most often not available when faced with a buying decision.
Perhaps you should look at the item and make up your own mind. I am sure that CAC does not want to get into arguments as to why something didn’t sticker.
On the other side, I might ask why something DID sticker. I was criticized for saying that CAC gets it right more than 95% of the time.
Obviously not knowing why a coin failed to sticker and then buying the coin is clearly one's choice. But if an informed decision is wanted, then one would need to know. The best way to find out is EVERY TIME when one submits coins for stickering, just ask, "If by chance some coins don't sticker, PLEASE provide a brief explanation. Thanks."
Obviously, seeing a non-stickered coin in an auction, or at a dealer's inventory, you don't have that luxury. My point is still the same - buy the coin if you want, but your decision is not as informed as it would be if you knew the reason it failed. Being repetitive, once you know the reason the coin failed, you may still be OK with that, or maybe not!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@gtstang said:
You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.
I've posted about a coin several times that was originally sold by legend some years ago in pcgs , cac that end for thousands over price guide.
The coin in question is very toned and has very deep scratches on both sides.
The coin is currently in a new pcgs holder with a new cert number and new cac sticker and sold for thousands again over price guide.
Again nobody cares that cac blessed it with such deep scratches.
There are many great coins with cac, but look at the coin if you're laying out that much over guide.
When someone says something such as “nobody cares…”, “everybody…”, “always…” or “never…” far more often than not, they’re wrong. And this is yet another example of that. If the coin is actually as you described, a lot of people would care.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I never liked CAC. No one knows whether or not I like a coin better than me. Paying someone else to tell me whether or not I like a coin is a humiliation ritual.
That said, in theory, it should have been something that helped collectors identify quality coins within the grade and weed out "messed with" coins that the TPG's started slabbing as "market acceptable". In reality, you get a set of biases like toning over white, or "dirty" gold over bright etc. that are about aesthetics not quality.
And unfortunately, rather than CAC being a net positive for the average collector, it became a net positive for dealers and elite collectors who use a sticker as a measure of worth, rather than the coin itself, as this thread is attempting to point out.
No one cared when the average Joe had to pay an extra $50 for a Morgan, but 20k starts to matter to the elites so we can actually have a serious discussion about it now instead of getting dog piled as an unsophisticated rube for not understanding how CAC works.
@gtstang said:
You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.
I've posted about a coin several times that was originally sold by legend some years ago in pcgs , cac that end for thousands over price guide.
The coin in question is very toned and has very deep scratches on both sides.
The coin is currently in a new pcgs holder with a new cert number and new cac sticker and sold for thousands again over price guide.
Again nobody cares that cac blessed it with such deep scratches.
There are many great coins with cac, but look at the coin if you're laying out that much over guide.
When someone says something such as “nobody cares…”, “everybody…”, “always…” or “never…” far more often than not, they’re wrong. And this is yet another example of that. If the coin is actually as you described, a lot of people would care.
I can honestly say that noone really cared when I posted about it. There are pics provided and truviews that show the problems.
Maybe because I'm not a prolific poster and a "nobody" in the coin world.
Like I said, the coin is in a new pcgs holder and new cert number and new cac from when legend sold it. I originally posted about this coin after the auction ended by legend years ago.
It sold again last year.
“You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.”
Absolutely incorrect. My opinion OF cac has not changed -they still do what they do on as consistent a basis as is reasonably achievable. My opinion ON cac has changed due to the effects that the market is assigning to what they do. It’s ridiculous that a B- coin is half the price of a B+ coin.
It used to be a very nice continuum of value - at any given grade valuation was progressive:
Ngc, PCGS, ngc with sticker, PCGS+, PCGS with sticker, PCGS + with sticker. Modify as you see fit but you could break the values down pretty smoothly. Sure, coins would double in price between grades in the same category, but you simply didn’t see a coin doubling in price between the top and bottom of just the B designation within the grade. Simply crazy IMO
@tradedollarnut said:
“You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.”
Absolutely incorrect. My opinion OF cac has not changed -they still do what they do on as consistent a basis as is reasonably achievable. My opinion ON cac has changed due to the effects that the market is assigning to what they do. It’s ridiculous that a B- coin is half the price of a B+ coin.
It used to be a very nice continuum of value - at any given grade valuation was progressive:
Ngc, PCGS, ngc with sticker, PCGS+, PCGS with sticker, PCGS + with sticker. Modify as you see fit but you could break the values down pretty smoothly. Sure, coins would double in price between grades in the same category, but you simply didn’t see a coin doubling in price between the top and bottom of just the B designation within the grade. Simply crazy IMO
Are you seeing this in the majority of ask price vs. Actual sold price in the areas you reference?
@gtstang said:
You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.
I've posted about a coin several times that was originally sold by legend some years ago in pcgs , cac that end for thousands over price guide.
The coin in question is very toned and has very deep scratches on both sides.
The coin is currently in a new pcgs holder with a new cert number and new cac sticker and sold for thousands again over price guide.
Again nobody cares that cac blessed it with such deep scratches.
There are many great coins with cac, but look at the coin if you're laying out that much over guide.
When someone says something such as “nobody cares…”, “everybody…”, “always…” or “never…” far more often than not, they’re wrong. And this is yet another example of that. If the coin is actually as you described, a lot of people would care.
I can honestly say that noone really cared when I posted about it. There are pics provided and truviews that show the problems.
Maybe because I'm not a prolific poster and a "nobody" in the coin world.
Like I said, the coin is in a new pcgs holder and new cert number and new cac from when legend sold it. I originally posted about this coin after the auction ended by legend years ago.
It sold again last year.
For various reasons, people don”t automatically post just because they care about something. And I doubt that your not being a prolific poster had much, if anything to do with the lack of responses. Your previous thread aside, even if nobody who read it cared, that doesn’t mean that the rest of the world (who didn’t see the thread) wouldn’t care.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@tradedollarnut said:
Laura wouldn’t have bought it in the first place so the theoretical is moot
Respectfully, I disagree. There is always the possibility that she and PCGS missed it.
I sold an expensive PCGS coin through a Legend auction that was by submitted by Legend to CAC which failed. Everybody said it was a really nice coin. Legend did not know why it failed. After the auction I had the courage to ask JA why it failed. PVC.
If both Pcgs and laura missed it, I’m certainly not gonna catch it. Shrug
And if you missed it too, I would have no chance of seeing it.
@tradedollarnut said:
This is the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. Can I see why no sticker? Probably the slight reverse haze. But with a sticker it’s $40k and w/o the sticker she wholesaled it for $22.5k. IMO, the latter might be the better purchase.
Is that remnants of a fingerprint on the obverse behind Lady Liberty? If so, maybe that's why it didn't sticker.
The thrust of this entire post is ridiculous, collectors have been willing to overpay for the holder brand, for the color, for the plus, for the provenance, and on and on. That collectors are willing to pay more for the sticker is just another one to add on that list. In truth collectors are not that smart, they are easily convinced to follow the herd if told to by the "right " influencer. This post cannot make that more clear, people have announced that they would buy any coin if Laura told them to buy, that is crazy.
@MFeld said:
Don’t be a slave to holders, either. That can be just as (or even more) costly.
Funny, when I put this in my sig line (still there after many years) I took significant heat for it, you get likes and agrees, smh. Just goes to prove my point above, people are fine with anything if the right person says it.
@gtstang said:
You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.
I've posted about a coin several times that was originally sold by legend some years ago in pcgs , cac that end for thousands over price guide.
The coin in question is very toned and has very deep scratches on both sides.
The coin is currently in a new pcgs holder with a new cert number and new cac sticker and sold for thousands again over price guide.
Again nobody cares that cac blessed it with such deep scratches.
There are many great coins with cac, but look at the coin if you're laying out that much over guide.
When someone says something such as “nobody cares…”, “everybody…”, “always…” or “never…” far more often than not, they’re wrong. And this is yet another example of that. If the coin is actually as you described, a lot of people would care.
I can honestly say that noone really cared when I posted about it. There are pics provided and truviews that show the problems.
Maybe because I'm not a prolific poster and a "nobody" in the coin world.
Like I said, the coin is in a new pcgs holder and new cert number and new cac from when legend sold it. I originally posted about this coin after the auction ended by legend years ago.
It sold again last year.
For various reasons, people don”t automatically post just because they care about something. And I doubt that your not being a prolific poster had much, if anything to do with the lack of responses. Your previous thread aside, even if nobody who read it cared, that doesn’t mean that the rest of the world (who didn’t see the thread) wouldn’t care.
I cared, but disagreed that the coin was so egregiously overgraded to be bought back. It was a liner coin, and probably one of the coins CAC had made a mistake on.
@coinbuf said:
The thrust of this entire post is ridiculous, collectors have been willing to overpay for the holder brand, for the color, for the plus, for the provenance, and on and on. That collectors are willing to pay more for the sticker is just another one to add on that list. In truth collectors are not that smart, they are easily convinced to follow the herd if told to by the "right " influencer. This post cannot make that more clear, people have announced that they would buy any coin if Laura told them to buy, that is crazy.
How can it be “overpaying” in a free market with widespread auction price discovery? Your personal willingness not to pay more has no bearing on the market value of CAC, toning, stars, color, provenance…
There are two dealers I’d buy sight unseen from - because they consistently and only sell high quality material that aligns with my desired aesthetic. Neither is CAC exclusive and both sell coins at a premium because of their reputation for quality.
@Morgan White said:
I never liked CAC. No one knows whether or not I like a coin better than me. Paying someone else to tell me whether or not I like a coin is a humiliation ritual.
That said, in theory, it should have been something that helped collectors identify quality coins within the grade and weed out "messed with" coins that the TPG's started slabbing as "market acceptable". In reality, you get a set of biases like toning over white, or "dirty" gold over bright etc. that are about aesthetics not quality.
And unfortunately, rather than CAC being a net positive for the average collector, it became a net positive for dealers and elite collectors who use a sticker as a measure of worth, rather than the coin itself, as this thread is attempting to point out.
No one cared when the average Joe had to pay an extra $50 for a Morgan, but 20k starts to matter to the elites so we can actually have a serious discussion about it now instead of getting dog piled as an unsophisticated rube for not understanding how CAC works.
If you never liked CAC for the reasons you stated above, it would seem that you wouldn’t like professional grading companies, either. If CAC is guilty of telling you whether you like a coin (which, by the way, they’re not doing) and of causing the “average Joe” to have to pay extra money for coins, so do the grading companies, often to a much larger extent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Morgan White said:
I never liked CAC. No one knows whether or not I like a coin better than me. Paying someone else to tell me whether or not I like a coin is a humiliation ritual.
That said, in theory, it should have been something that helped collectors identify quality coins within the grade and weed out "messed with" coins that the TPG's started slabbing as "market acceptable". In reality, you get a set of biases like toning over white, or "dirty" gold over bright etc. that are about aesthetics not quality.
And unfortunately, rather than CAC being a net positive for the average collector, it became a net positive for dealers and elite collectors who use a sticker as a measure of worth, rather than the coin itself, as this thread is attempting to point out.
No one cared when the average Joe had to pay an extra $50 for a Morgan, but 20k starts to matter to the elites so we can actually have a serious discussion about it now instead of getting dog piled as an unsophisticated rube for not understanding how CAC works.
If you never liked CAC for the reasons you stated above, it would seem that you wouldn’t like professional grading companies, either. As if CAC is guilty of telling you whether you like a coin and of causing the “average Joe” to have to pay extra money for coins, so do the grading companies, often to a much larger extent.
TPG's served a useful purpose in that I've been around long enough to remember mail order BU's were often dipped AU's and TPG grading cleaned that up. TPG's went off the rails when they decided to start slabbing coins as "market acceptable", which is exactly what created the demand for CAC. Now, CAC has evolved into something where people are starting to see the gap again, as this thread indicates.
You're right in this sense, in my area of collecting, which has always been high end circulated coins, VF-XF bust, seated, barbar etc., I don't need TPG's or CAC for any reason whatsoever. I had my complete F-XF seated quarter set in a Dansco including some crack outs. I started certifying them (and then upgrading some as already slabbed) to make them easier to sell because that's the reality of the market. It doesn't mean I like it.
Bottom line here is that TPG's, CAC, and just about any system you can think of "drifts", "inflates", whatever you want to call it because people are always trying to profit from the gaps and margins. What you're seeing in this thread are the first signs of the "gaps" in the CAC system actually being acknowledged by someone that people will listen to without dismissing as an unsophisticated rube who "doesn't understand how the market works".
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As was already stated, she did indeed offer the coin retail for just a 10% markup over wholesale non sticker price. This leaves plenty of room for not taking a bath upon resale
To be honest, I have been pivoting in this direction and have entertained the idea of some type of approval sticker that id buy back at x% premium in my specific area of focus. There are far too few pioneer coins to go around, and seeing some that end up being condemned because they "failed" makes me question the position we've ended up in. I agree with CAC about 70-90% of the time, depending on the series.....but I have had some perplexing head scratchers lately, for both unjust condemnation and uninspiring approval. As you mentioned before, I think it's not an intentional consequence, but until humans aren't steering the ship anymore, there's always an element of subjectivity that will vary from one to the next. It concerns me for the future, when supply is not re-entering the market in the same cyclical frequency, and I don't know if it does any justice to the hobby itself .
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Not my series, but per the old Photgrade guide, VF20 must have a complete & sharp LIBERTY. Agree the rest of the coin looks mid VF, so not sure what happened to that coin.
Correct, and the hypothetical hasn't been put to the test in the real world since she doesn't retail non-CAC coins for the most part. I think I can speak for many dealers, certainly not all of them, but I wouldn't expect to sell a non-stickered coin for the same retail prices of the usual beaned counterparts, but if it's somewhere in the middle, the margin is adjusted to allow for the same buy-sell spread, so no one "takes a bath". I don't retail anything I wouldn't want to buy back, and that's why I don't mind offering default buyback for a specific period of time, I want any collector's who purchase to have that confidence, and I think the buyback may bridge the gap on the "non stickered but still worth half of that premium" coins that just miss the mark.
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TDN - I 100% agree with you that Laura should be offering very high end nonCAC coins. Whenever I attend shows there is just a small percentage of CAC coins being offered by dealers right now. So from a business point of view, I feel that JA may not agree that its a high end coin, but Laura might think otherwise. Many collectors trust Laura's opinion so I would feel comfortable buying a nonCAC coin from Laura knowing its top quality (but not CAC'd).
"At the moment" is a significant and noteworthy distinction in connection with the subjective nature of grading. Opinions of TPG and CAC can change and so can the opinions of a coin at any given time. The positive attributes of a coin really do not change unless the coin is subsequently enhanced. However, the opinions of those positive attributes can change- especially over time and based on a review of similar situated coins and the surviving population. And a top pop coin is no guarantee that it is finest example as there is a clear difference between eye appeal and the natural state of preservation of a coin in contrast to a higher technical grade with a sterile look that simply fails to capture what matters. Slabs and stickers really do not change the coin, they merely frame and shape a narrative for those that seek it.
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This is all so interesting.
What is the takeaway for most collectors?
"This is all so interesting.
What is the takeaway for most collectors?"
Enjoy the hobby.
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It never made sense to me that a wispy hairline or two would penalize the grade far more than a couple large bag-marks on a "crusty" coin.
Buy nice coins you like. Don't be a slave to stickers because the coin can often be overpriced.
This is spot on. Buy the coins you like whether they have a sticker or not.
Having been branded as a low life for not endorsing the CAC concept 100%, I don’t give a rat’s tail about what CAC does. It drove me from the U.S. coin hobby for several years. I collected British and Roman imperial coins instead. When I see the grinning CAC cartoon logo, I have negative feelings.
Question 7: What percentage of coins CAC reviews sticker?
Answer 7: As of April 1, 2023, CAC has stickered approximately 43% of the coins received.
Question 15: How many graders look at each coin?
Answer 15: At least two graders look at each coin.
Question 16: Does John Albanese look at every coin?
Answer 16: Yes, John reviews each coin that comes in.
Not that my opinion matters much. But 43% is far too high in my opinion if the point of CAC is to highlight “top-quality examples” (taking that quote directly from their website).
43% can’t all be “top quality”. Sure there’s some bias in what is being sent in and what isn’t. But even thinking about that, 43% seems too high.
Might as well just give them all a participation trophy at that point.
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Tell that to the collectors who have carefully screened their best coins before sending them in.
That figure hasn’t been updated in 3 years, and nevertheless, it’s fairly useless now. With each passing year, more and more had already been there that the rate would have progressively lowered continuously, but there’s many variables.
Consider that dealer were only sending 30% of their inventory, then the 43% figure would sound about right.
But also, that doesn’t factor in the coins that have been in 6 different holders across 2 grade levels. and been stickers in 2 out of those 6. So many coins upgrade and sticker again, the coins that stand out look good in almost any grade, and they skew the numbers. That number should be retired though, it serves no purpose anymore.
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I actually like to cherry pick the non-CAC holdered coins and have done so for years. There is a lot more financial upside to doing it that way.
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My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
And to that point, we have all the data we need in the CAC pops. Pick almost any pre civil war issue of consequential value and the CAC pop vs that of the combined totals from both Tpgs will often be in the 10-15% range. My hit rate would be much different than someone sending ever set of OGH Merc dimes.
There is no black and white, no “right or wrong”. No “correct vs incorrect”.
There is only the holder grade that it currently lives in, and a very subjective market consensus that attempts to arbitrate it.
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It seems a reasonable suggestion to me. I won't buy an unstickered coin from most dealers unless I can see it in hand but I have numerous times from Doug Winter, who will explain why he thinks a coin did not sticker. Would do the same if Laura or George told me they liked a coin for grade.
George has more than once told me to pass on a coin that was stickered. There are a few pair of eyes I trust far over my own, even in series I focus on.
None of this changes that I am a believer in CAC.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
And I will add that in my 5 years in this board, I can’t recall anyone ever having been chastised or branded as “less than” because they didn’t buy into the sticker concept with the full weight of their wallet….I don’t think JA ever had a fun to anyone’s head, so my presumption is that some of these perceived victimizations manifest from internal or historical resentments.
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I don’t disagree, but I’m curious. Did you actually see the Trade Dollar in hand? Based on the pics, I wouldn’t have been tempted to buy it sight unseen.
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No - but where did I say I’d buy it sight unseen?
I buy what I like, regardless of stickers, lately I almost prefer it to not be stickered because usually you get a much better deal that way…
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In my opinion, the key to this whole conversation is know WHY a coin did not sticker! With that knowledge, you can make an informed decision, based on that reason, the coins merits, and price!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
If you think 43% is too high to be "solid for the grade" (which is the definition), then we should really hate the 57% that fail to meet that (by your estimation) low standard.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
JA is constantly holding a fun to our head!
I generally agree with what you are saying, as you've narrowly defined it. I don't recall anyone ever being told they should open their wallet. However, many anti-CACers have been criticized for their negativity.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You didn't. I will say, for myself, the reason I like CAC is for sight unseen purchases. I don't mind buying raw coins if I've seen them myself. But when I'm buying at a distance, I prefer TPG and I triply prefer TPG + CAC because it is far less likely there will be any negative surprises.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The venom that was directed toward me was over the top. At one point it got so bad that John Albanese called me to apologize for the comments of some of his supporters. The PCGS monitor sent me a PM advising me to just put a certain person on “ignore” because there was not anything the monitor could do to stop it. Why they were so concerned about one collector’s opinion is beyond me.
That should never happen, sorry. I'm glad you're still here. That being said...
I think this explains the vast majority of the vehemently anti-CAC crowd.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Sure, that would be helpful, but this information is most often not available when faced with a buying decision.
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running like a water color in the rain...."
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Don’t be a slave to holders, either. That can be just as (or even more) costly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You didn’t. You said “ it would have been a screaming bargain for someone at 22.5K”. Which to me implied that you have an opinion about the quality of the coin.
FWIW, I haven’t seen the coin in hand, so I don’t have an opinion about it. But the pics are good enough that I can say I doubt I’d like the coin as a 67, or even at 22.5K. The thing that bothers me most in the pics is the upper right quadrant of the obverse.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Ok but you’re forgetting one inferable fact that I have in my possession- laura offered it to a client. I absolutely positively am 100% certain that would never happen if she didn’t like the coin.
Perhaps you should look at the item and make up your own mind. I am sure that CAC does not want to get into arguments as to why something didn’t sticker.
On the other side, I might ask why something DID sticker. I was criticized for saying that CAC gets it right more than 95% of the time.
That I do Bill! I've bought non-stickered coins for which I am quite happy to own. I also own a couple of CAC'd coins that I question why they stickered.
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.
I've posted about a coin several times that was originally sold by legend some years ago in pcgs , cac that end for thousands over price guide.
The coin in question is very toned and has very deep scratches on both sides.
The coin is currently in a new pcgs holder with a new cert number and new cac sticker and sold for thousands again over price guide.
Again nobody cares that cac blessed it with such deep scratches.
There are many great coins with cac, but look at the coin if you're laying out that much over guide.
Obviously not knowing why a coin failed to sticker and then buying the coin is clearly one's choice. But if an informed decision is wanted, then one would need to know. The best way to find out is EVERY TIME when one submits coins for stickering, just ask, "If by chance some coins don't sticker, PLEASE provide a brief explanation. Thanks."
Obviously, seeing a non-stickered coin in an auction, or at a dealer's inventory, you don't have that luxury. My point is still the same - buy the coin if you want, but your decision is not as informed as it would be if you knew the reason it failed. Being repetitive, once you know the reason the coin failed, you may still be OK with that, or maybe not!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
When someone says something such as “nobody cares…”, “everybody…”, “always…” or “never…” far more often than not, they’re wrong. And this is yet another example of that. If the coin is actually as you described, a lot of people would care.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I never liked CAC. No one knows whether or not I like a coin better than me. Paying someone else to tell me whether or not I like a coin is a humiliation ritual.
That said, in theory, it should have been something that helped collectors identify quality coins within the grade and weed out "messed with" coins that the TPG's started slabbing as "market acceptable". In reality, you get a set of biases like toning over white, or "dirty" gold over bright etc. that are about aesthetics not quality.
And unfortunately, rather than CAC being a net positive for the average collector, it became a net positive for dealers and elite collectors who use a sticker as a measure of worth, rather than the coin itself, as this thread is attempting to point out.
No one cared when the average Joe had to pay an extra $50 for a Morgan, but 20k starts to matter to the elites so we can actually have a serious discussion about it now instead of getting dog piled as an unsophisticated rube for not understanding how CAC works.
On the T$ I'd find the hairlines, and where they are, as an aesthetic turn-off, but as a rank amateur on high end material like this it's just my 2c.
I can honestly say that noone really cared when I posted about it. There are pics provided and truviews that show the problems.
Maybe because I'm not a prolific poster and a "nobody" in the coin world.
Like I said, the coin is in a new pcgs holder and new cert number and new cac from when legend sold it. I originally posted about this coin after the auction ended by legend years ago.
It sold again last year.
“You know, even though your opinion of cac has changed, the fact is nobody cares.”
Absolutely incorrect. My opinion OF cac has not changed -they still do what they do on as consistent a basis as is reasonably achievable. My opinion ON cac has changed due to the effects that the market is assigning to what they do. It’s ridiculous that a B- coin is half the price of a B+ coin.
It used to be a very nice continuum of value - at any given grade valuation was progressive:
Ngc, PCGS, ngc with sticker, PCGS+, PCGS with sticker, PCGS + with sticker. Modify as you see fit but you could break the values down pretty smoothly. Sure, coins would double in price between grades in the same category, but you simply didn’t see a coin doubling in price between the top and bottom of just the B designation within the grade. Simply crazy IMO
Are you seeing this in the majority of ask price vs. Actual sold price in the areas you reference?
For various reasons, people don”t automatically post just because they care about something. And I doubt that your not being a prolific poster had much, if anything to do with the lack of responses. Your previous thread aside, even if nobody who read it cared, that doesn’t mean that the rest of the world (who didn’t see the thread) wouldn’t care.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And if you missed it too, I would have no chance of seeing it.
On the highest resolution image on our host it sure looks like it could be an old print.
https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/cert/188963839/fdYpXoIR906eieUK9hOhXA.jpg
The thrust of this entire post is ridiculous, collectors have been willing to overpay for the holder brand, for the color, for the plus, for the provenance, and on and on. That collectors are willing to pay more for the sticker is just another one to add on that list. In truth collectors are not that smart, they are easily convinced to follow the herd if told to by the "right " influencer. This post cannot make that more clear, people have announced that they would buy any coin if Laura told them to buy, that is crazy.
Funny, when I put this in my sig line (still there after many years) I took significant heat for it, you get likes and agrees, smh. Just goes to prove my point above, people are fine with anything if the right person says it.
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I cared, but disagreed that the coin was so egregiously overgraded to be bought back. It was a liner coin, and probably one of the coins CAC had made a mistake on.
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How can it be “overpaying” in a free market with widespread auction price discovery? Your personal willingness not to pay more has no bearing on the market value of CAC, toning, stars, color, provenance…
There are two dealers I’d buy sight unseen from - because they consistently and only sell high quality material that aligns with my desired aesthetic. Neither is CAC exclusive and both sell coins at a premium because of their reputation for quality.
If you never liked CAC for the reasons you stated above, it would seem that you wouldn’t like professional grading companies, either. If CAC is guilty of telling you whether you like a coin (which, by the way, they’re not doing) and of causing the “average Joe” to have to pay extra money for coins, so do the grading companies, often to a much larger extent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
TPG's served a useful purpose in that I've been around long enough to remember mail order BU's were often dipped AU's and TPG grading cleaned that up. TPG's went off the rails when they decided to start slabbing coins as "market acceptable", which is exactly what created the demand for CAC. Now, CAC has evolved into something where people are starting to see the gap again, as this thread indicates.
You're right in this sense, in my area of collecting, which has always been high end circulated coins, VF-XF bust, seated, barbar etc., I don't need TPG's or CAC for any reason whatsoever. I had my complete F-XF seated quarter set in a Dansco including some crack outs. I started certifying them (and then upgrading some as already slabbed) to make them easier to sell because that's the reality of the market. It doesn't mean I like it.
Bottom line here is that TPG's, CAC, and just about any system you can think of "drifts", "inflates", whatever you want to call it because people are always trying to profit from the gaps and margins. What you're seeing in this thread are the first signs of the "gaps" in the CAC system actually being acknowledged by someone that people will listen to without dismissing as an unsophisticated rube who "doesn't understand how the market works".