Two Bidders Really Wanted to Own This Coin
gemtone65
Posts: 963 ✭✭✭
Did you ever view a coin for sale privately or via auction, and think: "I need to own that coin at any price which I can muster the funds to pay for it?" Well, apparently 2 bidders must have had that same thought after viewing lot number 4300 offered in Heritage's FUN Signature Sale Thursday night. It involved a common date Morgan dollar, 1881-s, in what is sometimes referred to as uncommon condition: a gem rainbow toned NGC 67. This coin was also strangely the only colorful piece in the entire auction, suggesting it may have been consigned by a dealer rather than collector, and at the same time focused attention from toned Morgan dollar lovers on this single coin in this major sale.
In the catalogue, which was all I was able to view, Heritage presented 2 distinctly different obverse pictures. I show them both below. The first image below, in the holder, seems to be an attractive, mostly violet toned gem. It looked like a coin that might realize $4000 to $5000 or so.
The second image, without showing the holder, seemed like a beautiful, classic bag toned gem with many classic rainbow colors acquired from years residing in a canvas bag. It seemed to me that this was a coin I might sell for something south of say, $7500.
Well, clearly at least 2 bidders had different thoughts in mind. I don't know which image is more representative of the actual coin, but given the startling result, I think it's safe to say the rainbow toned coin image is likely more representative. In any event, after heated bidding, the final gross sale price was $43,932. As best I can recall, this is an auction record for the Morgan dollar's date, mint, and grade classification. Note as well that this coin was neither graded by PCGS nor certified by CAC. Finally, observe the coin does not have the coveted NGC* designation, although to be fair, and based on the holder, the coin appears to have been originally graded before the star designation became available. Still, without all that, the coin still sold for almost $44,000!
Anyone here seen this coin in person, bid on it, or perhaps even win it? Sadly, it wasn't me.
Comments
Oh wow, that's insane! (the price). Same with the saturation enhancement on the bottom photo. Cool coin regardless.
Although, to be fair, I have paid triple over the price guide figures for a couple of toners in my collection.
That's a lot of money. I can understand the psychology of people bidding things up, someone may think that the other bidders know more than they do, realize it is super special and worthy of higher and higher price levels. But that doesn't make any sense to me on this coin since no doubt it has been to cac or possibly tried for crossovers or a "reconsideration" submission, though NGC used to call that "response regrade" or something like that.
It is very easy to acquire a beautiful naturally toned coin that is formally white & lustrous.
Take the white silver coin outside into an often sun- lighted area. Place it on a short wood stool.
Place a clear glass CONVEX small bowl over the coin and let sit for 6+ months, occasionally turning it over so the sun hits it thru the clear glass convex bowl.
It will tone gold and colbalt blue slowly and evenly with glowing luster showing thru. Totally natural.
I’ve done it quite successfully , partic with a classic early American coin now slabbed as a MS67 which was formally a medium grey dull coin that was first dipped to make it bright.
So much for a $44K ultra common silver dollar more often seen choice white Unc 62-63 than any other grade
I distinctly recall in the 1950-60’s era when toning was out and white was in. Everything silver was dipped which was then called “ cleaned “.
I personally cannot understand it, I just dont see the value. The consignor must be out of their mind with joy. Thats alot of dough. I doubt it would sell for that price privately but I am not a big toner guy. I like PL and DMPL Morgans.
I could assemble a very nice collection with that kind of money.
On the other hand I am not wealthy so I dont buy in the same arena as the top dogs.
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I understand folks can do what they want with their own money, but I cannot understand that sales price.
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That coin is very pretty, but while the images don't quite show how the color and lustre play with each other, at crazy price levels, the toning needs to be perfect, and at least in the photos, I don't like the little spots near the bridge of the nose. The only real justification I can think of for that price level is two people thinking the coin is at least a 68, but if that were the case, I can't imagine the coin not being tried for the upgrade or at least stickered (and you'd surely want gold versus green to be dead set on the upgrade). The serial isn't in CAC's database, so that says it either hasn't been sent in or just didn't get a sticker at all. At this point in time, it's hard to imagine a coin like this not being sent in prior to sale unless the seller or auction house have a good reason to not try it.
Take a look at the OP's coin again, which I don't think would be accurately described as "gold and cobalt blue"
@airplanenut said:
Do both of you really think there would have been a significant difference in the price realized if the coin had been in a PCGS holder and/or was accompanied by a CAC sticker?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't even like the coin that much. For that kind of moon money there should not be any ugly spots in front of Ms. Liberty's face. The toning has some attractionm but it's not great. Let em have it. They will be sorry later.
Oh the Chain Cent I could buy with that kind of money...
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"Sadly, it wasn't me?" You should be happy it wasn't you!
AT
I wonder when the 3rd place bidder dropped out....
So... I guess the next time someone argues that auction results are a reflection of current market values, they'll ignore this one then?
I would be thrilled I did not win that.
That's not what I was trying to say. From the information in front me, I can't justify how the coin sold for anywhere near as much as it did. It would be one thing if it sold a little bit high, but not an order of magnitude high. To that end, I could imagine that if two bidders were confident the coin would upgrade (either with a gold sticker or grading at 68 or higher) that could justify a significantly higher price than if everyone agrees the coin is a very colorful 67, and definitely a 67.
Now, because the coin went through knowledgeable hands (this wasn't some collector who happened to have the coin and just threw it up on eBay), it's hard for me to believe that if anyone thought it would sticker (specifically gold) or upgrade they wouldn't have tried, because such an upgrade would garner increased bids from many buyers (whether they'd go all the way to what was seen here is an aside). So with the knowledge that the coin isn't in a 68 holder and doesn't have a sticker, I'm simply that much more perplexed by the sale price, because I'm inferring that some very smart people didn't think the coin to be an upgrade candidate, yet perhaps not one but two bidders did.
While very nice, I like when there is a rainbow effect and the color progression toning and not how this coin toned, also too much of the blue and magenta. Also agree, that 2nd photo does not improve the look and the color over saturated.
That’s the most common date in the whole series. To pay that much of a premium just because of some color and an older slab doesn’t make much sense to me.
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This is one of those cases where the underbidder was the actual winner of this auction.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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But would it be neon bag toned?
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People have laughed at what truly special toned Morgans will realize for as long as I’ve been collecting. IIRC, the Moose brought that $40k level over two decades ago. And just to show the grade don’t matter much, here’s a 66+going for a fortune.
Should we know the bidder's available disposable income, then reason goes out the window. Both bidders, most likely, could afford the expenditure and really wanted this coin. One of them won, one lost. It happens in many auctions, called "sellers dream".
Jim
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2 rich bidders in bid war who love toners.
For those with an interest in the coin's history, the 1881-S has some interesting tales to tell.
This was one of the coins that was actively sold by telemarketers and others in the late-1980's as we entered The Coin Bubble. From mid-1989 to a few years later the price of an 1881-S MS-66 plunged from $1,400 to $200 (85% decline) and in MS-67 the drop was $3,950 to $680 (83% drop).
The coin has never come all the way back; I see 1881-S MS-66's for about $400 in recent months and that's with PCGS CAC/CACG grading, a bit lower without CAC or with NGC.
$800 is tops for the MS-67's unless you have Rainbow Toning or DMPLE attributes.
As someone who checked out the coin at lot viewing, in addition to being the lunatic who bought the 66+ ex-Northern Lights coin that the article referenced that TDN just shared, I feel qualified to add to this thread😂😂.
Some coins are just like that, I wasn’t seriously back in the hobby for the Northern Lights sale so I’ve always had a little FOMO about those coins (which are cataloged beautifully on the monstertonedmorgans website; amazing site if you have never seen it) so when I saw the 66+ in the Heritage catalog, I knew I was buying the coin and I didn’t care if the money got stupid.
That said, I was also pretty shocked with the price that the NGC 67 just went for. The coin is a monster for sure with awesome original bag toning and typically nice s-mint luster. I think the HA close up photo is a pretty fair representation of the coin in hand, the slab shot is pretty bad/inaccurate. I think the coin would likely CAC as a 66, but I recall thinking that the cheek probably had a scuff or two too many for CAC 67. My thoughts on viewing in person were very similar to your thoughts @gemtone65 ; I would have been a bidder up to $5500, maybe $6000, but I didn’t really expect to be competitive and $7500 seemed to be about market to me at the time.
It is an awesome coin and whoever the top 2 bidders are, I hope they leave a few monsters for the rest of us😁.
Like the Anaconda days.
I say to each their own. Good for them; they have deep pockets. I'd rather have a nicely straight graded 1793 chain cent.
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I would have been skeptical of the close up photo (since I did not see it in person or see a video) but since @DrewU saw it in hand and says it is fair, I feel safe calling it a monster toner. The price is one of those stunning results but can be explained by two overly enthusiastic bidders. I recall a similar event with a monster Franklin at Legend. That one had some upgrades and was PCGS plus CAC but the story was no one at show was paying even a tenth of the final 129k price. Everyone was surprised by the result. A few years later it sold for "only" 47k (with one of the bidders now being the seller, there seems to have been less enthusiasm). I could see a similar result with the Morgan. If it goes back to auction in the next few years, the hammer might be 1/3 to 1/2 of the current result. That would still be a strong price but a little more in line with what something like this would tend to sell for.
https://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/43537837/50c-1958-pcgs-ms67--fbl-cac
https://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/89896798
NACIH!
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Not a fan of that coin at all. For that kind of money, I would rather have a Chain Cent.
I suppose I’m in the minority, but that coin is HIDEOUS!
I’ve paid up more than I should have for some of the coins in my collection due to it’s beautiful toning/color
FIFY
Why?
If you don't like the look, then you wouldn't have bid, right?
If you don't like the final price, then you would only have bid up to what you were comfortable with and, anything above that, wouldn't have impacted you either then, right?
So, what would make you "thrilled" about NOT winning it?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I think he means that once cured of auction fever, and upon returning to his senses, he would realize that paying $40k for a common coin that may or may not be "pretty" is foolish and (in essence) he won by losing.
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I think that coin in hand could be spectacular. I know sometimes you get sucked into wanting something badly especially in a competitive bidding scenario. Later, after the dust settles as Spock would say:
"After a time, you may find that "having" is not so pleasing a thing after all as "wanting". It is not logical, but it is often true."
I think my avatar recognizes that quote...
Ever hear of "buyer's remorse"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If that coin were raw, how much would you pay for it?
If that coin were raw, would you question if the toning is natural or artificial?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This coin is not for me yet I bet the buyer is currently happy with the results.
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Over 8,000 coins graded at this level totaling both services. 42K Yikes. The underbidder is a lucky man, or woman.
To each his own but there are other coins I would be buying if I was going to lay down $40K+ for a coin.
@Bochiman said:
I was thinking the same thing. I guess that was just his way of saying (in an emphatic manner) that he wouldn’t have bid anywhere close to the winning amount.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’m sure he has. Ever heard that realistically, only a buyer can have “buyer’s remorse”? 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To each their own, but to pay ridiculously crazy money for a very common coin makes no sense whatsoever. That said, the toning seems a bit off to me.
Raw it would certainly go for less as would almost any high grade coin without the TPG opinion.
As far as the toning, it is natural (market acceptable) in raw or graded form. There is no questioning the toning with this coin.
People thought this stupid at the time. Now I bet it’s $100k+
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/what-makes-an-1881-s-morgan-dollar-worth--45-825-.html
I hope the two bidders at least saw the coin in hand. Or had Mark Feld look at it for them, which seems unlikely given his responses.
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All you Broke people criticize how someone spends their money......
Maybe that $44K is chump change to them.......
jealousy can be ugly........