<< <i>Thanks for all the advice everyone, but I'm going to do it how I'm going to do it. >>
Then why post on this subject?
How do you justify numismatics as a major, or even as a minor? I can see majoring in history with an interest in a topic that can be illuminated with numismatic knowledge but not much more. I am open to hearing your argument, don't get me wrong. To me, numismatics, taken in isolation, is ultimately about identification and classification of coins. This is an experteise in which one might get a certification but it is not really an academic field.
<< <i>Thanks for all the advice everyone, but I'm going to do it how I'm going to do it. >>
Then why post on this subject?
How do you justify numismatics as a major, or even as a minor? I can see majoring in history with an interest in a topic that can be illuminated with numismatic knowledge but not much more. I am open to hearing your argument, don't get me wrong. To me, numismatics, taken in isolation, is ultimately about identification and classification of coins. This is an experteise in which one might get a certification but it is not really an academic field. >>
While it is true that numismatics includes the identification and classification of coins, the subject includes much more than that. How could one not include history, economics, art, political science, or chemistry? Or even business when it comes to the buying/selling of coins. My interest in numismatics is writing. I love to research and write about coins, no matter what topic. All of the above mentioned topics can collectively or individually be included in any writings about numismatics. With a degree in numismatics, I am getting a college-level education in each of them. Therefore, I can take the knowledge from each of them and apply them to numismatics. Isn't it nice to know that the person who wrote the book you're reading is acredited to some degree?
Here's how I designed the degrees to proportionately add all of the topics. I considered history to be a major (though not the only) area of the numismatics that I am interested in. Instead of clogging up the numismatics degree with history courses, I decided to add it as a second major. Economics, art, and a little bit of political science comprise the numismatics degree. At first, I wasn't going to add chemistry because the amount of prerequisites needed to get to the courses that I wanted to take would have clogged the degree with chemistry courses. Then, when I mentioned this numismatics degree here, a member mentioned that they would add chemistry to the curriculum no matter how long it took. That got me thinking that chemistry is pretty important. So, I decided that since I was going to have to take the amount of courses needed to get to the ones that I wanted, I should just add chemistry as a minor to the numismatics. Then I realized that even the prerequisites could be tied into numismatics, so it made it even better. A good understanding of chemistry does come in handy when it comes to toning, environmental damage, compositions, and especially determining authenticity.
What it really comes down to is personal satisfaction. I'm not going to college right out of high school. After graduation, I spent six years working as a plumber before finally realizing that I was never going to be happy in that profession. I have been interested in numismatics since I was seven. Throughout middle and high school, I was a less than average student because my true interests were in numismatics and not in school. I nearly failed the seventh grade because I couldn't keep my head out of coin books. After deciding to go back to college, already with a wife and child, I decided to do something that will ultimately make me happy. At the local community college I earned two associate's degrees, one in history and the other in performing arts, graduating with a 4.0 GPA and international recognitions. Now, I'm in my second semester at the four year school doing what I'm doing. I'm not saying that to be a numismatist, one must have a degree. I'm not saying that my having a degree will make me more knowledgable than any of the experts. But, for the field of numismatics that I am pursuing, I would feel more comfortable knowing that I have learned the basis of my work in college.
A well-rounded four-year university education with a couple of semesters each of English, communications, chemistry, math, physics, economics, world and American history, art, law, biology, political science and a foreign language or two is immensely valuable to a numismatist, whether there is ever such a degree or not.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS). Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
@JesseKraft said:
I wonder what ever happened to this guy?
Congratulations on your success. How long did it take for you to get the Ph.D.? Any insights you can offer YNs on the forum? I am far from a YN, but I do remember your initial post way back when.
OK, so it's an old thread.
I think a PHD in Numismatics would help in securing a position at an auction firm as it adds value in promotion. Academics are generally not handsomely paid, see curators, researchers, writers, teachers and such. Add skills in grading and business if you want more money. Personally, I don't see the added value for the cost.
My path has been the less highly paid, but lower pressure environments. ANA, museums, smaller grading services. I was a dealer for a while after military and college. It was a little tuff being a rookie on the bourse in 1981-1983. Cutting my teeth in that market gave me the edge I needed.
Seeing the lines forming up to the ANACS table made me curious. Here were a group of guys helping people with grading authentication and attributions that had the respect of the floor while making only a fraction of the traders. This seemed to fit up with my desires and I joined them in 1984. I'm pretty sure I would have made more as a young, hungry, trader, but I am content with were I ended up. Don't get me wrong, I have done very well for myself and family. I also have the satisfaction of knowing and helping thousands of collectors sharpen their coin skills.
But back to your question of what a career in this area will net you financially.
When I joined ANACS as a grader, I was offered $14,000, and took it. I thought I'd do a year, pick
up all I could and go back to dealing. Within a year I was at $35,000 and decided to Stay. Probably
50,000 when I left. Remember ANA is a not for profit organization not known for high pay.
I started ICG at $125,000 (1998) left at $340,000. Went with ANACS that same year at $240,000. Less pay, stress and drama. Now working as an ANACS consultant at a $300,000 rate.
As for the PCGS, and NGC, I remember in 1986, asking David Hall what he paid his graders and he proudly proclaimed that they make at least $100,000. I also heard they were doing 200-400 coins an hour. Mainly dollars, but the burn out rate was high. There were 6 months of backlogs to be gone through in 1986-1988. Most graders worked a couple of weeks between shows as they were full time Dealers.
Today the grading room makeup has shifted and there are many levels of graders. Cheap eyes are used for high volume, lower cost items. They may see 10,000 coins a day, modern, Silver eagles and such. Researchers might see 20 coins a day. Think rarities with pedigrees
These are my estimates based on hearsay, whispers, lies and educated guesses
Sorters $30,000-$50,000
First base. $50,000-$75,000, Entry level graders with basic Redbook knowledge.
Second base. $75,000-$125,000, graders with experience some variety experience.
3rd base. $125-$250,000. Finalizer grader, consolidates grades, checks authentication, varieties, attributions, etc.
Quality control. 250,000-$500,000. Oversees the grading standard, Has a firm grasp of what each grade means in terms of value, placement in registry sets, and previous grade rankings. Last word on authentication, grading lines, Etc.
President, Owner, Manager, $500,000- $1,000,000. Last word on the overall grading standard, quality control. Oversees the liabilities to the firm.
Remember, Money is only part of it. I've known too many unhappy dealers with regrets on what wealth has done to them. Do what feeds your family and your soul. J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
So ... What does my PhD in Systems Engineering have to do with numismatics? Well, I created private POTUS Numismatic Artifact registry (new research methods for a new area of numismatic area.
Comments
<< <i>Thanks for all the advice everyone, but I'm going to do it how I'm going to do it. >>
Then why post on this subject?
How do you justify numismatics as a major, or even as a minor? I can see majoring in history with an interest in a topic that can be illuminated with numismatic knowledge but not much more. I am open to hearing your argument, don't get me wrong. To me, numismatics, taken in isolation, is ultimately about identification and classification of coins. This is an experteise in which one might get a certification but it is not really an academic field.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for all the advice everyone, but I'm going to do it how I'm going to do it. >>
Then why post on this subject?
How do you justify numismatics as a major, or even as a minor? I can see majoring in history with an interest in a topic that can be illuminated with numismatic knowledge but not much more. I am open to hearing your argument, don't get me wrong. To me, numismatics, taken in isolation, is ultimately about identification and classification of coins. This is an experteise in which one might get a certification but it is not really an academic field. >>
While it is true that numismatics includes the identification and classification of coins, the subject includes much more than that. How could one not include history, economics, art, political science, or chemistry? Or even business when it comes to the buying/selling of coins. My interest in numismatics is writing. I love to research and write about coins, no matter what topic. All of the above mentioned topics can collectively or individually be included in any writings about numismatics. With a degree in numismatics, I am getting a college-level education in each of them. Therefore, I can take the knowledge from each of them and apply them to numismatics. Isn't it nice to know that the person who wrote the book you're reading is acredited to some degree?
Here's how I designed the degrees to proportionately add all of the topics. I considered history to be a major (though not the only) area of the numismatics that I am interested in. Instead of clogging up the numismatics degree with history courses, I decided to add it as a second major. Economics, art, and a little bit of political science comprise the numismatics degree. At first, I wasn't going to add chemistry because the amount of prerequisites needed to get to the courses that I wanted to take would have clogged the degree with chemistry courses. Then, when I mentioned this numismatics degree here, a member mentioned that they would add chemistry to the curriculum no matter how long it took. That got me thinking that chemistry is pretty important. So, I decided that since I was going to have to take the amount of courses needed to get to the ones that I wanted, I should just add chemistry as a minor to the numismatics. Then I realized that even the prerequisites could be tied into numismatics, so it made it even better. A good understanding of chemistry does come in handy when it comes to toning, environmental damage, compositions, and especially determining authenticity.
What it really comes down to is personal satisfaction. I'm not going to college right out of high school. After graduation, I spent six years working as a plumber before finally realizing that I was never going to be happy in that profession. I have been interested in numismatics since I was seven. Throughout middle and high school, I was a less than average student because my true interests were in numismatics and not in school. I nearly failed the seventh grade because I couldn't keep my head out of coin books. After deciding to go back to college, already with a wife and child, I decided to do something that will ultimately make me happy. At the local community college I earned two associate's degrees, one in history and the other in performing arts, graduating with a 4.0 GPA and international recognitions. Now, I'm in my second semester at the four year school doing what I'm doing. I'm not saying that to be a numismatist, one must have a degree. I'm not saying that my having a degree will make me more knowledgable than any of the experts. But, for the field of numismatics that I am pursuing, I would feel more comfortable knowing that I have learned the basis of my work in college.
I wonder what ever happened to this guy?
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
last on apr 14, 2022
any update @jessecarlk ?
Deleted
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Ancient Thread Alert
ouch I wonder as well now ... I thought this was current
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
It appears he has risen to the top of his field and paved new roads while doing it! Congratulations!!!
Nothing like pursuing your dreams and proving the naysayers wrong in the process!
I believe a certificate in Numismatics from the ANA would work.
As far as a university Degree would suggest Accounting.
Is the ANA certificate program still offered?
Could not find it when I searched a few days ago.
Overly complicated IMHO.
Where is the largest concentration of clubs? Where is the largest concentration of shows within one days travel?
Guessing the Northeast.
Since the OP's initial post, so much has changed.
That said, hasn't it always been about contacts and endless access to coins?
Could one hustle enough in four or five years to land a job with a PCGS or Heritage?
I would want a degree with almost fool proof fall back employment opportunities. Teaching for example.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Congratulations on your success. How long did it take for you to get the Ph.D.? Any insights you can offer YNs on the forum? I am far from a YN, but I do remember your initial post way back when.
OK, so it's an old thread.
I think a PHD in Numismatics would help in securing a position at an auction firm as it adds value in promotion. Academics are generally not handsomely paid, see curators, researchers, writers, teachers and such. Add skills in grading and business if you want more money. Personally, I don't see the added value for the cost.
My path has been the less highly paid, but lower pressure environments. ANA, museums, smaller grading services. I was a dealer for a while after military and college. It was a little tuff being a rookie on the bourse in 1981-1983. Cutting my teeth in that market gave me the edge I needed.
Seeing the lines forming up to the ANACS table made me curious. Here were a group of guys helping people with grading authentication and attributions that had the respect of the floor while making only a fraction of the traders. This seemed to fit up with my desires and I joined them in 1984. I'm pretty sure I would have made more as a young, hungry, trader, but I am content with were I ended up. Don't get me wrong, I have done very well for myself and family. I also have the satisfaction of knowing and helping thousands of collectors sharpen their coin skills.
But back to your question of what a career in this area will net you financially.
When I joined ANACS as a grader, I was offered $14,000, and took it. I thought I'd do a year, pick
up all I could and go back to dealing. Within a year I was at $35,000 and decided to Stay. Probably
50,000 when I left. Remember ANA is a not for profit organization not known for high pay.
I started ICG at $125,000 (1998) left at $340,000. Went with ANACS that same year at $240,000. Less pay, stress and drama. Now working as an ANACS consultant at a $300,000 rate.
As for the PCGS, and NGC, I remember in 1986, asking David Hall what he paid his graders and he proudly proclaimed that they make at least $100,000. I also heard they were doing 200-400 coins an hour. Mainly dollars, but the burn out rate was high. There were 6 months of backlogs to be gone through in 1986-1988. Most graders worked a couple of weeks between shows as they were full time Dealers.
Today the grading room makeup has shifted and there are many levels of graders. Cheap eyes are used for high volume, lower cost items. They may see 10,000 coins a day, modern, Silver eagles and such. Researchers might see 20 coins a day. Think rarities with pedigrees
These are my estimates based on hearsay, whispers, lies and educated guesses
Sorters $30,000-$50,000
First base. $50,000-$75,000, Entry level graders with basic Redbook knowledge.
Second base. $75,000-$125,000, graders with experience some variety experience.
3rd base. $125-$250,000. Finalizer grader, consolidates grades, checks authentication, varieties, attributions, etc.
Quality control. 250,000-$500,000. Oversees the grading standard, Has a firm grasp of what each grade means in terms of value, placement in registry sets, and previous grade rankings. Last word on authentication, grading lines, Etc.
President, Owner, Manager, $500,000- $1,000,000. Last word on the overall grading standard, quality control. Oversees the liabilities to the firm.
Remember, Money is only part of it. I've known too many unhappy dealers with regrets on what wealth has done to them. Do what feeds your family and your soul. J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
Me with my dementia every time these ancient threads get resurrected.
CAC | PCGS | NGC
My PhD in Systems Engineering was conferred in 2010. Here is a visual for those seeking a PhD.
So ... What does my PhD in Systems Engineering have to do with numismatics? Well, I created private POTUS Numismatic Artifact registry (new research methods for a new area of numismatic area.
Here is a cool item from my research (page 1 & 2 only shown)
Another (page 1 & 2 only shown)