Nope. The lists date from May 1965 as part of an internal investigation supported by the Secret Service. They tracked down everyone who came in contact with the project (not just finished coins - everything).
Thank You. I would think that a transcript (investigation report) with very interesting information does exist and could possibly be available thru FOI procedure, since national security isn't involved(unless Pres. Johnson kept some). If FOI does not apply and investigation is sealed, how did you come by this list? Respectfully, John Curlis
<< <i>Another batch of unverifiable anecdotes, most of which didn’t surface until years after events of 1965. Who was the employee? When and where did they work at the Denver mint? What exactly did they say? Is there a transcript? What prompted the employee to comment? When and where did the conversation take place? (Note: I have a list of every employee who worked on the 1964-D Peace dollars at Denver, and another for Philadelphia. These lists have never been published or, to my knowledge, circulated among numismatists.)
Also, the 1964-D dollar situation was nothing like the 1933 $20 - >>
Well, the conversation took place in the rotunda of the ANA Headquarters before the early 1980's renovation. At the time we had one of the large Mint scales there on loan from the Denver Mint. This man and his wife came in with some coins he wanted looked at, and he pointed at the scale and said that he used to use one of those when he worked in the weighing department at the Denver Mint.
I asked him if he was working there when they struck the silver dollars in the mid-1960's, and he said yes. I then asked if it was true that employees were allowed to buy some of the new coins, and he said yes. I asked him if he had bought any himself, and he said no, that to him they were just another coin, but that his buddy had stopped and bought two of them on the way out.
He then said that the next day there was a terrible uproar, and that the supervisors were going around telling everybody that anybody who had bought the coins had to bring them back, and that anybody who didn't bring them back would be fired. He said that his buddy told them that he had spent the coins in a bar on Colfax Avenue the night before. The buddy was not fired. . After I published this story in an article, I received a letter from Dan Brown, then retired, who for years had been the pre-eminent coin dealer in Denver. He said in the letter that he had heard similar stories over the years, and that when he had asked the Superintendent if it was true that the Mint had sold 1964 Peace dollars to employees on the day that they were struck she told him yes, it was true, but that they had gotten all of them back. I have that letter somewhere if you would like to include it in the book.
The Mint lies because it can. When they say that they never sold 1964 Peace dollars to employees, they are lying. You may quote me. Tom DeLorey
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
CaptHenway, I think you may still have to buy the book, even if info is supplied. My questions are not understood, but the info will be in the book.Respectfully, John Curlis
Tom, Not questioning your word or recollection of the story. But there is little that can be independently verified. The same for all the other variations and permutations that exist.
There are only two living former Denver Mint employees with any connection to the Peace dollar, and their connections were tenuous. We interviewed these plus another who has since passed away. No one mentioned any kind of situation except in relation to the Kennedy half dollar where there was an internal release (2 per person) before the authorized release date. Apparently several employees got into trouble for showing the new halves around town.
The conclusion: The existence of a 1964-D Peace dollar has never been independently verified.
I know that the Mint has been trying to sell the story that the frantic recall was over 1964-D halves, not dollars, but I choose not to believe them. . When I was researching the 2000-P Cheerios pattern dollars, and asked the Mint about their official publicity photos which showed the pattern reverse and not the normal circulation reverse, they told me with a straight face that those pictures were merely artist's conceptions of the designs, and that no dies had ever been made in those designs. Then the pictures of the illegal gold strikes came out, and they showed the pattern reverse design that I had seen at a press conference in October of 1999. The Cheerios dollars also show that reverse. . The Mint lies.
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
There has been, and still is, an unwillingness on the part of the US mint to disclose information openly and honestly. Sometimes it appears they are just trying to give a quick answer, but more often the responses appear to be intentionally misleading or confusing. This is why I do not rely on press releases or other public-issue documents, including most letters from mint staff to collectors for research. During the 1964 dollar mess, mint officials misled both others at treasury and the Congress. They also participated in a completely unnecessary (and unsuccessful) attempt to prevent the cost of making the coins from appearing on accounting records. (I have copies of the records.) The obvious thing for the mint to have done in May 1965, at least obvious to collectors, would have been to count the struck trial pieces, preserve a small number for the Smithsonian, and openly discuss what had occurred. It was a very simple matter. Yet they were not clear with Congress or anyone else, and all that did was increase mistrust. One of the outcomes was the 5-yr temporary ban on any dollar coins.
The good information is internal correspondence – stuff that was exchanged by people working for the mint to others working for the mint. Their discussions of daily problems, operating procedures and accounting, tell you much more about what was really occurring. This is the real research and it is what I’ve used in published books and articles. (For example, read the story of Giles Anderson and his attempts to buy a 1909 minor proof set. You can see both Anderson’s letters and the relies, as well as the internal – and very different – documents from Asst Sec Andrew. See Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915. The 1921 Peace dollar and the deliberate suppression of what occurred is another example See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921. Also, there are the behind-the-scenes machinations of TR and Saint-Gaudens and others about the gold designs. See Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908. )
The 1964 dollar is, at present, an imaginary thing. We know they once existed (actually “twice” existed) and we know that all were claimed to have been destroyed. We know that many people claim to have seen one or more long after they were supposedly destroyed. We know that so far, no example, no photograph, nothing, has shown up of the coin. There are lots of stories, but without independent verification, they are just tall tales and hot air. Maybe they sit in a hidden cave deep within the Swiss Alps, where their owner comes one a year to gaze on them and laugh at the rest of us.
One can say they won’t believe something all they want, but that does not change events. (The earth is flat, man never stepped on the moon, there’s a conspiracy of this or that….etc.) The half dollar information can be verified and one day, when I have enough of the backlog of other research completed, I’ll probably write a little article about what happened with all the proper citations. The source materials all date from 1964, not 1965 as with the Peace dollars.
That letter from Dan Brown would be interesting to see and the scuttlebutt that TD refers to would be awesome to disclose in your book. This does not mean that it is verified but at least makes for a more interesting read. You can then let the reader decide what to believe with your own admonition that you are sceptical (sic).
Readers love unsolved mysteries.
Does that mean, I can get in your book as a "thanks to xxxxx"
The Chapter on 1964-D dollars paraphrases several popular, and uniformly unsubstantiated, stories. There is also material noting discrepancies in various stories, including the mint’s, when compared to the Asst. Coiner and financial records.
The letter by Dan Brown would be interesting, but how can any of it be verified? It couldn’t be verified decades ago, why should today be any different?
As stated many times – until someone comes forward with a genuine 1964-D dollar and permits it to be independently examined and authenticated, the various stories are just hot air.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
I had forgotten this statement which says that Peace Dollar dies had been used to trial strike .800 fine silver.
@RWB said:
There has never been a finding by anyone, other than a treasury Dept attorney, that possession of a genuine 1964-D silver dollar is illegal. The Secret Service has never been involved. Peace dollar dies were also used in early 1970 as surrogates for the Ike design to strike ten .800 fine pieces.
The only basis for the Treasury Dept finding was a twisted interpretation of the 1947 trial relating to possession of a 1933 double eagle.
All of the information I have been able to dig up (there is a lot of it) will be in the Whitman Guide Book of Peace Dollars 1921-1964 planned for release in November.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@jdillane said:
I know what I wouldn't do....send it to the mint for authentication!
In that case, you can kiss it good-bye.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Rooster1 said:
If by some chance you were to come across a 1964-D Peace Dollar, and you thought
it was authentic, what would you do?
What I would do is turn it in to the United States Secret Service.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Interesting. My understanding is that the 1964 Peace dollars would only be produced at Denver. Of the 316,000 that were struck, they were all considered trial pieces. The actual minting of circulating pieces hadn't begun. There was authorization to mint 45 million but as of May 1965, production had not started. This was all going on during a silver "hoarding" where the Mint was still producing 1964 dated coins into 1965 - previously unheard of. At the same time, coins dated 1965 and later would be reduced to 40% silver.
Congress said "what is the purpose of producing another silver coin to hoard if we are reducing the amount of other silver coin to discourage hoarding?"
The program was canceled.
The story about employees being able to purchase 2 1964 Peace dollars becomes more interesting as all involved with the trial pieces signed an affidavit that all pieces never left the premises, were all accounted for and their melting and the destruction of the dies was witnessed in person.
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
Comments
<< <i>Another batch of unverifiable anecdotes, most of which didn’t surface until years after events of 1965. Who was the employee? When and where did they work at the Denver mint? What exactly did they say? Is there a transcript? What prompted the employee to comment? When and where did the conversation take place? (Note: I have a list of every employee who worked on the 1964-D Peace dollars at Denver, and another for Philadelphia. These lists have never been published or, to my knowledge, circulated among numismatists.)
Also, the 1964-D dollar situation was nothing like the 1933 $20 - >>
Well, the conversation took place in the rotunda of the ANA Headquarters before the early 1980's renovation. At the time we had one of the large Mint scales there on loan from the Denver Mint. This man and his wife came in with some coins he wanted looked at, and he pointed at the scale and said that he used to use one of those when he worked in the weighing department at the Denver Mint.
I asked him if he was working there when they struck the silver dollars in the mid-1960's, and he said yes. I then asked if it was true that employees were allowed to buy some of the new coins, and he said yes. I asked him if he had bought any himself, and he said no, that to him they were just another coin, but that his buddy had stopped and bought two of them on the way out.
He then said that the next day there was a terrible uproar, and that the supervisors were going around telling everybody that anybody who had bought the coins had to bring them back, and that anybody who didn't bring them back would be fired. He said that his buddy told them that he had spent the coins in a bar on Colfax Avenue the night before. The buddy was not fired.
.
After I published this story in an article, I received a letter from Dan Brown, then retired, who for years had been the pre-eminent coin dealer in Denver. He said in the letter that he had heard similar stories over the years, and that when he had asked the Superintendent if it was true that the Mint had sold 1964 Peace dollars to employees on the day that they were struck she told him yes, it was true, but that they had gotten all of them back. I have that letter somewhere if you would like to include it in the book.
The Mint lies because it can. When they say that they never sold 1964 Peace dollars to employees, they are lying. You may quote me.
Tom DeLorey
2. Run it thru PCGS or NGC
<< <i>1. Hire a lawyer.
2. Run it thru PCGS or NGC >>
You would surely need the mouthpiece as the Guvmint would be all over PCGS or NGC for their records like stink on chit.
Not questioning your word or recollection of the story. But there is little that can be independently verified. The same for all the other variations and permutations that exist.
There are only two living former Denver Mint employees with any connection to the Peace dollar, and their connections were tenuous. We interviewed these plus another who has since passed away. No one mentioned any kind of situation except in relation to the Kennedy half dollar where there was an internal release (2 per person) before the authorized release date. Apparently several employees got into trouble for showing the new halves around town.
The conclusion: The existence of a 1964-D Peace dollar has never been independently verified.
.
When I was researching the 2000-P Cheerios pattern dollars, and asked the Mint about their official publicity photos which showed the pattern reverse and not the normal circulation reverse, they told me with a straight face that those pictures were merely artist's conceptions of the designs, and that no dies had ever been made in those designs. Then the pictures of the illegal gold strikes came out, and they showed the pattern reverse design that I had seen at a press conference in October of 1999. The Cheerios dollars also show that reverse.
.
The Mint lies.
TD
The good information is internal correspondence – stuff that was exchanged by people working for the mint to others working for the mint. Their discussions of daily problems, operating procedures and accounting, tell you much more about what was really occurring. This is the real research and it is what I’ve used in published books and articles. (For example, read the story of Giles Anderson and his attempts to buy a 1909 minor proof set. You can see both Anderson’s letters and the relies, as well as the internal – and very different – documents from Asst Sec Andrew. See Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915. The 1921 Peace dollar and the deliberate suppression of what occurred is another example See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921. Also, there are the behind-the-scenes machinations of TR and Saint-Gaudens and others about the gold designs. See Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908. )
The 1964 dollar is, at present, an imaginary thing. We know they once existed (actually “twice” existed) and we know that all were claimed to have been destroyed. We know that many people claim to have seen one or more long after they were supposedly destroyed. We know that so far, no example, no photograph, nothing, has shown up of the coin. There are lots of stories, but without independent verification, they are just tall tales and hot air. Maybe they sit in a hidden cave deep within the Swiss Alps, where their owner comes one a year to gaze on them and laugh at the rest of us.
One can say they won’t believe something all they want, but that does not change events. (The earth is flat, man never stepped on the moon, there’s a conspiracy of this or that….etc.) The half dollar information can be verified and one day, when I have enough of the backlog of other research completed, I’ll probably write a little article about what happened with all the proper citations. The source materials all date from 1964, not 1965 as with the Peace dollars.
That letter from Dan Brown would be interesting to see and the scuttlebutt that TD refers to would be awesome to disclose in your book. This does not mean that it is verified but at least makes for a more interesting read. You can then let the reader decide what to believe with your own admonition that you are sceptical (sic).
Readers love unsolved mysteries.
Does that mean, I can get in your book as a "thanks to xxxxx"
Best,
Robert
P.S. I will buy one too!
The letter by Dan Brown would be interesting, but how can any of it be verified? It couldn’t be verified decades ago, why should today be any different?
As stated many times – until someone comes forward with a genuine 1964-D dollar and permits it to be independently examined and authenticated, the various stories are just hot air.
TD
Ancient thread alert.
I had forgotten this statement which says that Peace Dollar dies had been used to trial strike .800 fine silver.
In that case, you can kiss it good-bye.
What I would do is turn it in to the United States Secret Service.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
LOL
"I know nothing" if I had one. Thank you kindly Sgt Schultz 🫡
Interesting. My understanding is that the 1964 Peace dollars would only be produced at Denver. Of the 316,000 that were struck, they were all considered trial pieces. The actual minting of circulating pieces hadn't begun. There was authorization to mint 45 million but as of May 1965, production had not started. This was all going on during a silver "hoarding" where the Mint was still producing 1964 dated coins into 1965 - previously unheard of. At the same time, coins dated 1965 and later would be reduced to 40% silver.
Congress said "what is the purpose of producing another silver coin to hoard if we are reducing the amount of other silver coin to discourage hoarding?"
The program was canceled.
The story about employees being able to purchase 2 1964 Peace dollars becomes more interesting as all involved with the trial pieces signed an affidavit that all pieces never left the premises, were all accounted for and their melting and the destruction of the dies was witnessed in person.