@Insider2 said:
Let's see the Half dime. The POSITION of the "drill" mark argues that it is a test mark and not an attempt to hole a coin for adornment.
If anyone really wants to discuss that rediculous half disme further, please start a new thread. It’s way off topic here.
My takeaways from this thread. This DDO is a really notable DDO amougst all DDO's. It's cool as heck. It's friggin rare. Very high R6. Most examples have been mucked with (to varying degrees...some are not that bad). To date, only 3 unmucked coins are known (this includes one beautiful chop marked coin). Three coins put it at a high R7. All that means is that I'm celebrating this coin. Well done.
keoj
@Insider2 said:
Let's see the Half dime. The POSITION of the "drill" mark argues that it is a test mark and not an attempt to hole a coin for adornment.
Your wish is my command
Clearly damage from a wooddrill and not done by a hand with a Metalworker’s tool that had done thousands before. It was Cletus trying to make a neckless for Mary sue
@Insider2 said:
Let's see the Half dime. The POSITION of the "drill" mark argues that it is a test mark and not an attempt to hole a coin for adornment.
If anyone really wants to discuss that rediculous half disme further, please start a new thread. It’s way off topic here.
@Insider2 said:
Let's see the Half dime. The POSITION of the "drill" mark argues that it is a test mark and not an attempt to hole a coin for adornment.
If anyone really wants to discuss that rediculous half disme further, please start a new thread. It’s way off topic here.
@Insider2 said:
Let's see the Half dime. The POSITION of the "drill" mark argues that it is a test mark and not an attempt to hole a coin for adornment.
If anyone really wants to discuss that rediculous half disme further, please start a new thread. It’s way off topic here.
So that it might be suggested often enough......
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
I just received my final new coin of the year. While the 75 very wide CC is the scarcest trade dollar variety with five known, this DDO is widely regarded as the King of Trade Dollar varieties. FS-101 in the old terms and TDV-27 per @keoj 's book.
There may be 20 or so in existence. There are 14 listed in the trade dollar book but 3 of those are rumored and some of the others may be duplicates.
Of the for sure, known population, this is probably the 4th or 5th best(?). It's certainly not a perfect coin. But I am SOOO happy to add it to my collection.
@DDR said: @lermish - what is the story behind this acquisition?
Cherrypicked at Great Collections this past Sunday. Nothing that exciting except for my blood pressure readings in the two weeks leading up to the auction. The photos (which are normally amazing) were a touch less than stellar and there was no GreatPhoto.
There were only three bidders; one who made an incremental, Greysheet type bid, and another who seemingly recognized the variety but not the value. I ended up paying AU58 money, which was significantly below my max bid.
Here is Dan's AU50 from two years ago at Heritage:
Very nice. I have not seen one of these without the radial die crack by star 12. It must have occurred when the original Type I die was rehubbed with a Type II hub. The offset of design elements made this so cool. Double feet, a goiter, and the revealing Type II LIBERTY banner tips over Type I banner tips. This variety has it all - rare and interesting with few peers as such.
@alefzero said:
Very nice. I have not seen one of these without the radial die crack by star 12. It must have occurred when the original Type I die was rehubbed with a Type II hub. The offset of design elements made this so cool. Double feet, a goiter, and the revealing Type II LIBERTY banner tips over Type I banner tips. This variety has it all - rare and interesting with few peers as such.
Thanks! It's a really interesting coin and a lot of fun to study.
The coin is out of its holder (as the cleaned grade is marginal IMO so I will attempt to get it in the "right" holder) and I put it under the glass. I can't even see a hint of the die crack referenced in your book.
However, regarding the type 1/type 2 re-hub, in @keoj 's book, he states:
This variety is a Type IIM obverse, but it is difficult to verify since many of the obverse diagnostics are obscured by features that are doubled. A very subtle difference in the folds of Miss Liberty’s robe ended up being the conclusive distinguishing attribute to conclude that the coin was produced with a Type IIM master obverse hub.
Is there a disagreement regarding the source of the doubling or am I being dense?
@alefzero said:
Very nice. I have not seen one of these without the radial die crack by star 12. It must have occurred when the original Type I die was rehubbed with a Type II hub. The offset of design elements made this so cool. Double feet, a goiter, and the revealing Type II LIBERTY banner tips over Type I banner tips. This variety has it all - rare and interesting with few peers as such.
Thanks! It's a really interesting coin and a lot of fun to study.
The coin is out of its holder (as the cleaned grade is marginal IMO so I will attempt to get it in the "right" holder) and I put it under the glass. I can't even see a hint of the die crack referenced in your book.
However, regarding the type 1/type 2 re-hub, in @keoj 's book, he states:
This variety is a Type IIM obverse, but it is difficult to verify since many of the obverse diagnostics are obscured by features that are doubled. A very subtle difference in the folds of Miss Liberty’s robe ended up being the conclusive distinguishing attribute to conclude that the coin was produced with a Type IIM master obverse hub.
Is there a disagreement regarding the source of the doubling or am I being dense?
The crack emerges a couple denticles below the 12th star.
The evidence that the die was originally Type I but rehubbed with the Type II design can be seen in that the underlying banner tips turn to the left while the rehubbed ones hang down, like gravity likes them to do.
@alefzero said:
Very nice. I have not seen one of these without the radial die crack by star 12. It must have occurred when the original Type I die was rehubbed with a Type II hub. The offset of design elements made this so cool. Double feet, a goiter, and the revealing Type II LIBERTY banner tips over Type I banner tips. This variety has it all - rare and interesting with few peers as such.
Thanks! It's a really interesting coin and a lot of fun to study.
The coin is out of its holder (as the cleaned grade is marginal IMO so I will attempt to get it in the "right" holder) and I put it under the glass. I can't even see a hint of the die crack referenced in your book.
However, regarding the type 1/type 2 re-hub, in @keoj 's book, he states:
This variety is a Type IIM obverse, but it is difficult to verify since many of the obverse diagnostics are obscured by features that are doubled. A very subtle difference in the folds of Miss Liberty’s robe ended up being the conclusive distinguishing attribute to conclude that the coin was produced with a Type IIM master obverse hub.
Is there a disagreement regarding the source of the doubling or am I being dense?
The crack emerges a couple denticles below the 12th star.
Joe's coin doesn't appear to have the die crack either.
@alefzero said:
Very nice. I have not seen one of these without the radial die crack by star 12. It must have occurred when the original Type I die was rehubbed with a Type II hub. The offset of design elements made this so cool. Double feet, a goiter, and the revealing Type II LIBERTY banner tips over Type I banner tips. This variety has it all - rare and interesting with few peers as such.
Thanks! It's a really interesting coin and a lot of fun to study.
The coin is out of its holder (as the cleaned grade is marginal IMO so I will attempt to get it in the "right" holder) and I put it under the glass. I can't even see a hint of the die crack referenced in your book.
However, regarding the type 1/type 2 re-hub, in @keoj 's book, he states:
This variety is a Type IIM obverse, but it is difficult to verify since many of the obverse diagnostics are obscured by features that are doubled. A very subtle difference in the folds of Miss Liberty’s robe ended up being the conclusive distinguishing attribute to conclude that the coin was produced with a Type IIM master obverse hub.
Is there a disagreement regarding the source of the doubling or am I being dense?
The crack emerges a couple denticles below the 12th star.
The evidence that the die was originally Type I but rehubbed with the Type II design can be seen in that the underlying banner tips turn to the left while the rehubbed ones hang down, like gravity likes them to do.
If you look at the other L, I don’t think that’s where the ribbon tip would be.
Congratulations lermish, I can't believe I did not catch that as I look at GC's listings all the time. I'm also surprised Pcgs or GC didn't catch it. Great cherrypick.
I'll take a look at a couple of images over the next few days...I'm not sure that I'm on the "its a Type I obverse with a Type II final impression". However, this is not be without precedent, as the 1878-S DDR die reverse was based upon a IIM original hit with a final IIL die impression. The 1876-S DDO is difficult to assess as the original impression is pretty obscured. I always thought it was a simple IIM over a IIM die hit as everything looks pretty exact, just offset. Especially Miss Liberty's robe folds on her right leg but I'll look closer. Happy Holiday's!
I saw the discovery piece of that variety at the Collectors Clearinghouse office some time in the very early 70’s. I used to visit there every now and then while lobbying for the job with Coin World that I eventually got in late ‘73, and Ed Fleischmann would show me neat stuff he was working on. I especially remember the doubling on the hand.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Finally getting back to this query....was the TD 76-S DDO Type II second strike over an original Type I die or was it a Type II second strike over a Type II first strike.
To me it looks like the latter, a Type IIM strike over, but offset to the right , on a Type IIM original strike. To me, the original and doubled Type IIM bottom right LIBERTY banner tip looks pretty clear. A Type I obverse image is attached for reference.
Comments
Let's see the Half dime. The POSITION of the "drill" mark argues that it is a test mark and not an attempt to hole a coin for adornment.
If anyone really wants to discuss that rediculous half disme further, please start a new thread. It’s way off topic here.
My takeaways from this thread. This DDO is a really notable DDO amougst all DDO's. It's cool as heck. It's friggin rare. Very high R6. Most examples have been mucked with (to varying degrees...some are not that bad). To date, only 3 unmucked coins are known (this includes one beautiful chop marked coin). Three coins put it at a high R7. All that means is that I'm celebrating this coin. Well done.
keoj
Your wish is my command
Clearly damage from a wooddrill and not done by a hand with a Metalworker’s tool that had done thousands before. It was Cletus trying to make a neckless for Mary sue
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
So that it might be suggested often enough......
OLD THREAD ALERT
I just received my final new coin of the year. While the 75 very wide CC is the scarcest trade dollar variety with five known, this DDO is widely regarded as the King of Trade Dollar varieties. FS-101 in the old terms and TDV-27 per @keoj 's book.
There may be 20 or so in existence. There are 14 listed in the trade dollar book but 3 of those are rumored and some of the others may be duplicates.
Of the for sure, known population, this is probably the 4th or 5th best(?). It's certainly not a perfect coin. But I am SOOO happy to add it to my collection.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Awesome coin
Seriously awesome coin! What a find.
Looks way better than 4th or 5th known
There is your old chopped 55 and Joe's VF has good surfaces. This coin looks pretty similar to Dan's old 50 from the OP. It's around there somewhere.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Cherry pick of the year!!!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Sick snag!
Congratulations!
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
@lermish . Congratulations. Don't you love it when rare and attractive cross paths and find you too? James
@lermish - what is the story behind this acquisition?
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Cherrypicked at Great Collections this past Sunday. Nothing that exciting except for my blood pressure readings in the two weeks leading up to the auction. The photos (which are normally amazing) were a touch less than stellar and there was no GreatPhoto.
There were only three bidders; one who made an incremental, Greysheet type bid, and another who seemingly recognized the variety but not the value. I ended up paying AU58 money, which was significantly below my max bid.
Here is Dan's AU50 from two years ago at Heritage:
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1977217/1876-S-Trade-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-Genuine-AU-Details-from-photo#gallery-1
Very nice. I have not seen one of these without the radial die crack by star 12. It must have occurred when the original Type I die was rehubbed with a Type II hub. The offset of design elements made this so cool. Double feet, a goiter, and the revealing Type II LIBERTY banner tips over Type I banner tips. This variety has it all - rare and interesting with few peers as such.
Thanks! It's a really interesting coin and a lot of fun to study.
The coin is out of its holder (as the cleaned grade is marginal IMO so I will attempt to get it in the "right" holder) and I put it under the glass. I can't even see a hint of the die crack referenced in your book.
However, regarding the type 1/type 2 re-hub, in @keoj 's book, he states:
Is there a disagreement regarding the source of the doubling or am I being dense?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
The crack emerges a couple denticles below the 12th star.
The evidence that the die was originally Type I but rehubbed with the Type II design can be seen in that the underlying banner tips turn to the left while the rehubbed ones hang down, like gravity likes them to do.
Joe's coin doesn't appear to have the die crack either.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Very interesting! That was a question that is finally answered. (I might need to make 36.2 the one with the crack in my enumeration.)
If you look at the other L, I don’t think that’s where the ribbon tip would be.
Congratulations lermish, I can't believe I did not catch that as I look at GC's listings all the time. I'm also surprised Pcgs or GC didn't catch it. Great cherrypick.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. YOU SUCK
I'll take a look at a couple of images over the next few days...I'm not sure that I'm on the "its a Type I obverse with a Type II final impression". However, this is not be without precedent, as the 1878-S DDR die reverse was based upon a IIM original hit with a final IIL die impression. The 1876-S DDO is difficult to assess as the original impression is pretty obscured. I always thought it was a simple IIM over a IIM die hit as everything looks pretty exact, just offset. Especially Miss Liberty's robe folds on her right leg but I'll look closer. Happy Holiday's!
Keoj
Oh yeah, "you suck" as well. Congrats! One of the best DD's of all times in any series.
keoj
I saw the discovery piece of that variety at the Collectors Clearinghouse office some time in the very early 70’s. I used to visit there every now and then while lobbying for the job with Coin World that I eventually got in late ‘73, and Ed Fleischmann would show me neat stuff he was working on. I especially remember the doubling on the hand.
Finally getting back to this query....was the TD 76-S DDO Type II second strike over an original Type I die or was it a Type II second strike over a Type II first strike.
To me it looks like the latter, a Type IIM strike over, but offset to the right , on a Type IIM original strike. To me, the original and doubled Type IIM bottom right LIBERTY banner tip looks pretty clear. A Type I obverse image is attached for reference.
Great, tough variety!
Keoj