@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
I think steroids were way more wide spread, much earlier than we realize.
I know Canseco wrote "the book" on steroids 20 years ago, but I sure wish Tom House would have written one 30 years before that. House has stated that he estimates that 6-7 pitchers on every staff in baseball was using steroids and HGH as far back as the early 1970s!!! He would know as he was a user himself at the time.
that would set the steroid timeline way earlier.
as you stated with the Chiefs players using back in the 1960s, they were already a known thing back then.
I wonder if baseball players said they did not want to lift in public as a diversion? we know that players were working out. Yaz and Seaver were weight training in the 1960s. Ryan was a workout feind starting in the 1970s. 1948 mentioned Ruth using resistance training 40 years before that.
If Jose Canseo's book is the defense, then he claimed that at least 80% of players were juicing at that time...so then there would be no competitive advantage for Bonds or McGwire or anyone else then. It would also mean that the character should not be in question because then that is what the league was for everyone.
Canseco also says that several juicers are already in the HOF.
I would not choose to equate usage of steroids or testosterone pre-1970 with post-1980 (with the decade between showing organic adoption among elite athletes). Russia did a lot of great work in developing process for doping programs used to maximize potential of their elite athletes. Players openly injected themselves with "steroids" since the 1930s - generally testosterone - which is banned today. It wasn't the same as what we saw in the 70s, 80s and 90s though so I would pause before conflating those eras.
MLB didn't care until the public started to see that steroid usage was emerging prolifically in the general population. When High School and College kids were using steroids then it was a problem and then MLB had to clamp down. So the players during this era got screwed by the senseless fickle stupidity of changing social mores - and this includes many players who likely had the personal integrity to do it without PEDs.
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
I think steroids were way more wide spread, much earlier than we realize.
I know Canseco wrote "the book" on steroids 20 years ago, but I sure wish Tom House would have written one 30 years before that. House has stated that he estimates that 6-7 pitchers on every staff in baseball was using steroids and HGH as far back as the early 1970s!!! He would know as he was a user himself at the time.
that would set the steroid timeline way earlier.
as you stated with the Chiefs players using back in the 1960s, they were already a known thing back then.
I wonder if baseball players said they did not want to lift in public as a diversion? we know that players were working out. Yaz and Seaver were weight training in the 1960s. Ryan was a workout feind starting in the 1970s. 1948 mentioned Ruth using resistance training 40 years before that.
You're kind of all over the place in that post, but I think there was a general fear of lifting HEAVY weights in the 1970's with the exception of body builders and football players.
I remember buying my first set of weights in the early 1970's wanting to get bigger and stronger for football.
I was warned about becoming muscle bound. Ha ha, no such luck.
"Working out" meaning push ups, pull ups sit ups? Most likely not good for big muscle gain, but great for strength and your underlying muscle.
Resistance training, more effective, but similar to exercise.
Would love to see exactly what Tom House said. Occasional, haphazard use of steroids without serious weight training isn't going to do a lot for performance. Probably help with inflammation and recovery time though.
Here's what I found about HGH. I doubt anyone was using it prior to 1985 if it was that scarce, although I'm sure some people could get it;
You also mentioned Andro somewhere along the line. While it is a steroid, it's not nearly as effective as some of the others.
Canseco laughed about when McGwire admitted using it when it was legal. Jose said it was brilliant showing the andro when Big Mac was injecting himself with much "better" drugs.
You didn't see the complete transformation of guys' bodies in the 60's-80's.
Bonds and McGwire got HUGE. Barry was an athletic guy and Mark carried most of his strength in his lower body.
Their upper bodies became IMMENSE after using the juice.
Can you name any baseball players in the 1960's who got big like that?
Widespread (whatever that actually means) use, doesn't mean guys were getting big benefits.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Watch a late 50's of early 60's movie. The dudes where all muscled out. Looked like the movie Predator at the beginning. My HS was doing roids in 1980. you know if HS where doing it the pros were.
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
I think steroids were way more wide spread, much earlier than we realize.
I know Canseco wrote "the book" on steroids 20 years ago, but I sure wish Tom House would have written one 30 years before that. House has stated that he estimates that 6-7 pitchers on every staff in baseball was using steroids and HGH as far back as the early 1970s!!! He would know as he was a user himself at the time.
that would set the steroid timeline way earlier.
as you stated with the Chiefs players using back in the 1960s, they were already a known thing back then.
I wonder if baseball players said they did not want to lift in public as a diversion? we know that players were working out. Yaz and Seaver were weight training in the 1960s. Ryan was a workout feind starting in the 1970s. 1948 mentioned Ruth using resistance training 40 years before that.
You're kind of all over the place in that post, but I think there was a general fear of lifting HEAVY weights in the 1970's with the exception of body builders and football players.
I remember buying my first set of weights in the early 1970's wanting to get bigger and stronger for football.
I was warned about becoming muscle bound. Ha ha, no such luck.
"Working out" meaning push ups, pull ups sit ups? Most likely not good for big muscle gain, but great for strength and your underlying muscle.
Resistance training, more effective, but similar to exercise.
Would love to see exactly what Tom House said. Occasional, haphazard use of steroids without serious weight training isn't going to do a lot for performance. Probably help with inflammation and recovery time though.
Here's what I found about HGH. I doubt anyone was using it prior to 1985 if it was that scarce, although I'm sure some people could get it;
You also mentioned Andro somewhere along the line. While it is a steroid, it's not nearly as effective as some of the others.
Canseco laughed about when McGwire admitted using it when it was legal. Jose said it was brilliant showing the andro when Big Mac was injecting himself with much "better" drugs.
You didn't see the complete transformation of guys' bodies in the 60's-80's.
Bonds and McGwire got HUGE. Barry was an athletic guy and Mark carried most of his strength in his lower body.
Their upper bodies became IMMENSE after using the juice.
Can you name any baseball players in the 1960's who got big like that?
Widespread (whatever that actually means) use, doesn't mean guys were getting big benefits.
I am sure that professional athletes would not have too much trouble acquiring whatever PED (HGH) they wanted with the type of connections people at that level have even when HGH was relatively new.
here are a few Tom House quotes talking about PED's in the 60s and 70s:
House, later an accomplished pitching coach with Texas and now co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and '70s. He and his teammates laughed and rationalized losses by saying, "We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed. And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."
House described the dynamic as similar to the majors in recent years: Players knew their competition had chemical help and felt compelled to keep pace. He said he and several teammates used amphetamines (known as "greenies"), human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
House was listed at 5 feet 11 and 190 pounds, and his weight increased to 215 or 220 while on steroids. He blamed the extra pounds for putting additional wear and tear on his knees; he had five surgeries on his right knee and two on his left.
House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff were "fiddling" with steroids or growth hormone. He said the drugs and devoted conditioning improved his recovery, but his velocity didn't budge.
"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 mph," House said. "I was a failed experiment."
@craig44 said:
for older guys who supposedly did not weight train, have you ever seen the pictures of Willie Mays? guy was pretty ripped up for not weight lifting.
He was very muscular, Mantle was as well. Similar to Bonds in Barry's early career.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
I think steroids were way more wide spread, much earlier than we realize.
I know Canseco wrote "the book" on steroids 20 years ago, but I sure wish Tom House would have written one 30 years before that. House has stated that he estimates that 6-7 pitchers on every staff in baseball was using steroids and HGH as far back as the early 1970s!!! He would know as he was a user himself at the time.
that would set the steroid timeline way earlier.
as you stated with the Chiefs players using back in the 1960s, they were already a known thing back then.
I wonder if baseball players said they did not want to lift in public as a diversion? we know that players were working out. Yaz and Seaver were weight training in the 1960s. Ryan was a workout feind starting in the 1970s. 1948 mentioned Ruth using resistance training 40 years before that.
You're kind of all over the place in that post, but I think there was a general fear of lifting HEAVY weights in the 1970's with the exception of body builders and football players.
I remember buying my first set of weights in the early 1970's wanting to get bigger and stronger for football.
I was warned about becoming muscle bound. Ha ha, no such luck.
"Working out" meaning push ups, pull ups sit ups? Most likely not good for big muscle gain, but great for strength and your underlying muscle.
Resistance training, more effective, but similar to exercise.
Would love to see exactly what Tom House said. Occasional, haphazard use of steroids without serious weight training isn't going to do a lot for performance. Probably help with inflammation and recovery time though.
Here's what I found about HGH. I doubt anyone was using it prior to 1985 if it was that scarce, although I'm sure some people could get it;
You also mentioned Andro somewhere along the line. While it is a steroid, it's not nearly as effective as some of the others.
Canseco laughed about when McGwire admitted using it when it was legal. Jose said it was brilliant showing the andro when Big Mac was injecting himself with much "better" drugs.
You didn't see the complete transformation of guys' bodies in the 60's-80's.
Bonds and McGwire got HUGE. Barry was an athletic guy and Mark carried most of his strength in his lower body.
Their upper bodies became IMMENSE after using the juice.
Can you name any baseball players in the 1960's who got big like that?
Widespread (whatever that actually means) use, doesn't mean guys were getting big benefits.
I am sure that professional athletes would not have too much trouble acquiring whatever PED (HGH) they wanted with the type of connections people at that level have even when HGH was relatively new.
here are a few Tom House quotes talking about PED's in the 60s and 70s:
House, later an accomplished pitching coach with Texas and now co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and '70s. He and his teammates laughed and rationalized losses by saying, "We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed. And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."
House described the dynamic as similar to the majors in recent years: Players knew their competition had chemical help and felt compelled to keep pace. He said he and several teammates used amphetamines (known as "greenies"), human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
House was listed at 5 feet 11 and 190 pounds, and his weight increased to 215 or 220 while on steroids. He blamed the extra pounds for putting additional wear and tear on his knees; he had five surgeries on his right knee and two on his left.
House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff were "fiddling" with steroids or growth hormone. He said the drugs and devoted conditioning improved his recovery, but his velocity didn't budge.
"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 mph," House said. "I was a failed experiment."
this interview was from back in 2005
Thanks for the quotes. Too bad he didn't speak a little more seriously about it.
When Bonds started his major league career with the Pittsburgh Pirates, he was listed at 185 pounds. Eighteen years later, Bonds' weighed in at 228 pounds. He looked bigger than that to me.
"fiddling" isn't going to get it done. amphetamines are spoken of at length in Jim Bouton's book "Ball Four" he says the hurt your performance as much as they helped. He did say they were used by a lot of players and easily available. They don't however put 40 pounds of pure muscle on you.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
So he had absolutely no idea what he was doing or how to do it. About as I expected.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
I think steroids were way more wide spread, much earlier than we realize.
I know Canseco wrote "the book" on steroids 20 years ago, but I sure wish Tom House would have written one 30 years before that. House has stated that he estimates that 6-7 pitchers on every staff in baseball was using steroids and HGH as far back as the early 1970s!!! He would know as he was a user himself at the time.
that would set the steroid timeline way earlier.
as you stated with the Chiefs players using back in the 1960s, they were already a known thing back then.
I wonder if baseball players said they did not want to lift in public as a diversion? we know that players were working out. Yaz and Seaver were weight training in the 1960s. Ryan was a workout feind starting in the 1970s. 1948 mentioned Ruth using resistance training 40 years before that.
You're kind of all over the place in that post, but I think there was a general fear of lifting HEAVY weights in the 1970's with the exception of body builders and football players.
I remember buying my first set of weights in the early 1970's wanting to get bigger and stronger for football.
I was warned about becoming muscle bound. Ha ha, no such luck.
"Working out" meaning push ups, pull ups sit ups? Most likely not good for big muscle gain, but great for strength and your underlying muscle.
Resistance training, more effective, but similar to exercise.
Would love to see exactly what Tom House said. Occasional, haphazard use of steroids without serious weight training isn't going to do a lot for performance. Probably help with inflammation and recovery time though.
Here's what I found about HGH. I doubt anyone was using it prior to 1985 if it was that scarce, although I'm sure some people could get it;
You also mentioned Andro somewhere along the line. While it is a steroid, it's not nearly as effective as some of the others.
Canseco laughed about when McGwire admitted using it when it was legal. Jose said it was brilliant showing the andro when Big Mac was injecting himself with much "better" drugs.
You didn't see the complete transformation of guys' bodies in the 60's-80's.
Bonds and McGwire got HUGE. Barry was an athletic guy and Mark carried most of his strength in his lower body.
Their upper bodies became IMMENSE after using the juice.
Can you name any baseball players in the 1960's who got big like that?
Widespread (whatever that actually means) use, doesn't mean guys were getting big benefits.
I am sure that professional athletes would not have too much trouble acquiring whatever PED (HGH) they wanted with the type of connections people at that level have even when HGH was relatively new.
here are a few Tom House quotes talking about PED's in the 60s and 70s:
House, later an accomplished pitching coach with Texas and now co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and '70s. He and his teammates laughed and rationalized losses by saying, "We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed. And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."
House described the dynamic as similar to the majors in recent years: Players knew their competition had chemical help and felt compelled to keep pace. He said he and several teammates used amphetamines (known as "greenies"), human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
House was listed at 5 feet 11 and 190 pounds, and his weight increased to 215 or 220 while on steroids. He blamed the extra pounds for putting additional wear and tear on his knees; he had five surgeries on his right knee and two on his left.
House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff were "fiddling" with steroids or growth hormone. He said the drugs and devoted conditioning improved his recovery, but his velocity didn't budge.
"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 mph," House said. "I was a failed experiment."
this interview was from back in 2005
Thanks for the quotes. Too bad he didn't speak a little more seriously about it.
When Bonds started his major league career with the Pittsburgh Pirates, he was listed at 185 pounds. Eighteen years later, Bonds' weighed in at 228 pounds. He looked bigger than that to me.
"fiddling" isn't going to get it done. amphetamines are spoken of at length in Jim Bouton's book "Ball Four" he says the hurt your performance as much as they helped. He did say they were used by a lot of players and easily available. They don't however put 40 pounds of pure muscle on you.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
So he had absolutely no idea what he was doing or how to do it. About as I expected.
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
@bgr said:
Joe - I guess the only point I would take away from that is that cheating is cheating and some guys are better at cheating... and maybe baseball too.
Everything's fine until a guy like Ponzi comes along and ruins it for everyone.
If you cheat and it doesn't help your performance much, it's not as big a deal as if you figure out how to DOUBLE your numbers and diminish guys who are (or were) much better than you are.
Bonds didn't need to use, but he did, and now a lot of people actually think he is the GOAT.
McGwire and Sosa were not much more than slugs who became record setting HR hitters. Sosa was barely above an average player. McGwire couldn't carry KIllebrew's jock and the casual observer thinks he was MUCH better.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
Is it "cheating" if it is not against the rules?
It's cheating to use ILLEGAL drugs to enhance performance, even if the "rules" haven't been updated.
If it's against the law to possess a drug without a prescription it's cheating.
What if you were given the drugs by a doctor? a team doctor? remember, these guys are the rich and famous. they have connections us normals do not have
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
I think steroids were way more wide spread, much earlier than we realize.
I know Canseco wrote "the book" on steroids 20 years ago, but I sure wish Tom House would have written one 30 years before that. House has stated that he estimates that 6-7 pitchers on every staff in baseball was using steroids and HGH as far back as the early 1970s!!! He would know as he was a user himself at the time.
that would set the steroid timeline way earlier.
as you stated with the Chiefs players using back in the 1960s, they were already a known thing back then.
I wonder if baseball players said they did not want to lift in public as a diversion? we know that players were working out. Yaz and Seaver were weight training in the 1960s. Ryan was a workout feind starting in the 1970s. 1948 mentioned Ruth using resistance training 40 years before that.
You're kind of all over the place in that post, but I think there was a general fear of lifting HEAVY weights in the 1970's with the exception of body builders and football players.
I remember buying my first set of weights in the early 1970's wanting to get bigger and stronger for football.
I was warned about becoming muscle bound. Ha ha, no such luck.
"Working out" meaning push ups, pull ups sit ups? Most likely not good for big muscle gain, but great for strength and your underlying muscle.
Resistance training, more effective, but similar to exercise.
Would love to see exactly what Tom House said. Occasional, haphazard use of steroids without serious weight training isn't going to do a lot for performance. Probably help with inflammation and recovery time though.
Here's what I found about HGH. I doubt anyone was using it prior to 1985 if it was that scarce, although I'm sure some people could get it;
You also mentioned Andro somewhere along the line. While it is a steroid, it's not nearly as effective as some of the others.
Canseco laughed about when McGwire admitted using it when it was legal. Jose said it was brilliant showing the andro when Big Mac was injecting himself with much "better" drugs.
You didn't see the complete transformation of guys' bodies in the 60's-80's.
Bonds and McGwire got HUGE. Barry was an athletic guy and Mark carried most of his strength in his lower body.
Their upper bodies became IMMENSE after using the juice.
Can you name any baseball players in the 1960's who got big like that?
Widespread (whatever that actually means) use, doesn't mean guys were getting big benefits.
I am sure that professional athletes would not have too much trouble acquiring whatever PED (HGH) they wanted with the type of connections people at that level have even when HGH was relatively new.
here are a few Tom House quotes talking about PED's in the 60s and 70s:
House, later an accomplished pitching coach with Texas and now co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and '70s. He and his teammates laughed and rationalized losses by saying, "We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed. And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."
House described the dynamic as similar to the majors in recent years: Players knew their competition had chemical help and felt compelled to keep pace. He said he and several teammates used amphetamines (known as "greenies"), human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
House was listed at 5 feet 11 and 190 pounds, and his weight increased to 215 or 220 while on steroids. He blamed the extra pounds for putting additional wear and tear on his knees; he had five surgeries on his right knee and two on his left.
House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff were "fiddling" with steroids or growth hormone. He said the drugs and devoted conditioning improved his recovery, but his velocity didn't budge.
"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 mph," House said. "I was a failed experiment."
this interview was from back in 2005
Thanks for the quotes. Too bad he didn't speak a little more seriously about it.
When Bonds started his major league career with the Pittsburgh Pirates, he was listed at 185 pounds. Eighteen years later, Bonds' weighed in at 228 pounds. He looked bigger than that to me.
"fiddling" isn't going to get it done. amphetamines are spoken of at length in Jim Bouton's book "Ball Four" he says the hurt your performance as much as they helped. He did say they were used by a lot of players and easily available. They don't however put 40 pounds of pure muscle on you.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
So he had absolutely no idea what he was doing or how to do it. About as I expected.
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
His own words indicate he had NO IDEA what he was doing.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
@craig44 said:
Is it "cheating" if it is not against the rules?
It's cheating to use ILLEGAL drugs to enhance performance, even if the "rules" haven't been updated.
If it's against the law to possess a drug without a prescription it's cheating.
What if you were given the drugs by a doctor? a team doctor? remember, these guys are the rich and famous. they have connections us normals do not have
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They weren't, they weren't, still illegal.
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what were the repercussions pre 2005?
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Don't care if there were any. Different topic.
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We've done this time and time again, I'm bored with it.
Drugs that are ILLEGAL makes it cheating. Steroids were a controlled substance. Just because your employment contract doesn't specifically name every single illegal thing doesn't mean the ones omitted are OK.
_If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
_
Don't bother to go off an one of your tangents asking me anymore questions to drag the discussion on for eternity until you answer that question. I'll ask it again;
If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
Is it "cheating" if it is not against the rules?
I think this is purely perspective. Not enough people care about that distinction as I see it.
I was brought up in a different, better time, I guess.
rules and laws are not always so aligned with right and wrong so as to make that simple of a distinction. I think this discussion is again off the rails. the amount of mental rigidity here prevents useful discourse on contentious subjects.
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
in the context of the interview, why would anyone assume House meant anything OTHER than muscle gain? The interview was about steroids/PED. when athletes are working out, and on gear, they are not gaining fat because of increased appetite. come on...
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
@craig44 said:
Is it "cheating" if it is not against the rules?
It's cheating to use ILLEGAL drugs to enhance performance, even if the "rules" haven't been updated.
If it's against the law to possess a drug without a prescription it's cheating.
What if you were given the drugs by a doctor? a team doctor? remember, these guys are the rich and famous. they have connections us normals do not have
>
They weren't, they weren't, still illegal.
>
>
what were the repercussions pre 2005?
>
Don't care if there were any. Different topic.
>
>
We've done this time and time again, I'm bored with it.
Drugs that are ILLEGAL makes it cheating. Steroids were a controlled substance. Just because your employment contract doesn't specifically name every single illegal thing doesn't mean the ones omitted are OK.
_If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
_
Don't bother to go off an one of your tangents asking me anymore questions to drag the discussion on for eternity until you answer that question. I'll ask it again;
If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
how would I know why people lie? social stigma? I dont know.
how would you know players were not getting scripts signed by team docs? the rich and famous have WAY more connections than you and I. look at entertainers like Elvis, Prince, Michael Jackson etc. they got pretty much whatever drugs they wanted from doctors. we never would have found any of it out had they not died because of it.
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
Is it "cheating" if it is not against the rules?
It's cheating to use ILLEGAL drugs to enhance performance, even if the "rules" haven't been updated.
If it's against the law to possess a drug without a prescription it's cheating.
What if you were given the drugs by a doctor? a team doctor? remember, these guys are the rich and famous. they have connections us normals do not have
>
They weren't, they weren't, still illegal.
>
>
what were the repercussions pre 2005?
>
Don't care if there were any. Different topic.
>
>
We've done this time and time again, I'm bored with it.
Drugs that are ILLEGAL makes it cheating. Steroids were a controlled substance. Just because your employment contract doesn't specifically name every single illegal thing doesn't mean the ones omitted are OK.
_If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
_
Don't bother to go off an one of your tangents asking me anymore questions to drag the discussion on for eternity until you answer that question. I'll ask it again;
If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
how would I know why people lie? social stigma? I dont know.
how would you know players were not getting scripts signed by team docs? the rich and famous have WAY more connections than you and I. look at entertainers like Elvis, Prince, Michael Jackson etc. they got pretty much whatever drugs they wanted from doctors. we never would have found any of it out had they not died because of it.
You don't think Elvis and the others were actually getting the drugs legally do you? It's NOT legal to lie to a Doctor to get a prescription for narcotics.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
I'll guarantee he wasn't working out like Bonds and McGwire. And assuming every steroid he took was anabolic, which it probably wasn't, it only helps with protein synthesis within muscle fibers. If he didn’t cut out carbs and fat, and load up on lean protein, which he didn't... then he'd be lucky if half of his weight gain was muscle mass.
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
I'll guarantee he wasn't working out like Bonds and McGwire. And assuming every steroid he took was anabolic, which it probably wasn't, it only helps with protein synthesis within muscle fibers. If he didn’t cut out carbs and fat, and load up on lean protein, which he didn't... then he'd be lucky if half of his weight gain was muscle mass.
I'm assuming from his comments, not many of the players were doing things in away that was going to get results.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
I'll guarantee he wasn't working out like Bonds and McGwire. And assuming every steroid he took was anabolic, which it probably wasn't, it only helps with protein synthesis within muscle fibers. If he didn’t cut out carbs and fat, and load up on lean protein, which he didn't... then he'd be lucky if half of his weight gain was muscle mass.
I'm assuming from his comments, not many of the players were doing things in away that was going to get results.
if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
Well this post took a turn. I thought it would die on its own but it continues to live. As the OP I feel like I have to at least chime in on this debate.
I do think Bonds, Clemens, and Company from that era did something to improve their performance. Since they never tested positive or proven in court, I find it hard to put up some arbitrary wall to keep them out.
However all this debate will be fruitless on the 2031 ballot if Bond/Clemens don't get at least 5 votes. The debate whether or not they get into the Hall will be over, the answer will be NEVER. For Team Bonds/Clemens, there needs to be pressure placed on the HOF to remove that rule. There is no need for it as long as the HOF chooses the committees and nominates players. The only reason for the rule is to CYA the HOF management from outside pressure.
@ndleo said:
Well this post took a turn. I thought it would die on its own but it continues to live. As the OP I feel like I have to at least chime in on this debate.
I do think Bonds, Clemens, and Company from that era did something to improve their performance. Since they never tested positive or proven in court, I find it hard to put up some arbitrary wall to keep them out.
However all this debate will be fruitless on the 2031 ballot if Bond/Clemens don't get at least 5 votes. The debate whether or not they get into the Hall will be over, the answer will be NEVER. For Team Bonds/Clemens, there needs to be pressure placed on the HOF to remove that rule. There is no need for it as long as the HOF chooses the committees and nominates players. The only reason for the rule is to CYA the HOF management from outside pressure.
In 2031 it will be over for them in their lifetimes and ours. After that only you grandchildren will know
Bottom line for those with card "investments" in those players, HOF wise its game over.
Deal with it or not its your choice folks but it won't matter!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972) Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me (2025)
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
I'll guarantee he wasn't working out like Bonds and McGwire. And assuming every steroid he took was anabolic, which it probably wasn't, it only helps with protein synthesis within muscle fibers. If he didn’t cut out carbs and fat, and load up on lean protein, which he didn't... then he'd be lucky if half of his weight gain was muscle mass.
I'm assuming from his comments, not many of the players were doing things in away that was going to get results.
if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
Asked and answered.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@ndleo said:
Well this post took a turn. I thought it would die on its own but it continues to live. As the OP I feel like I have to at least chime in on this debate.
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Yes, it did. I was ready to stop posting about steroids on your thread. This will be my last.
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I do think Bonds, Clemens, and Company from that era did something to improve their performance. Since they never tested positive or proven in court, I find it hard to put up some arbitrary wall to keep them out.
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Bonds admitted that he used. It was testimony we're not supposed to find out, it was leaked.
Some of his samples were retested using better methods, they failed.
McGwire admitted to using, but claimed he only did it to get over injuries and get back out on the field.
Sosa failed an "anonymous" test in 2003. Recently, he admitted to "making mistakes" in order to recover from injuries.
Clemens never tested positive and was accused, but not convicted.
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However all this debate will be fruitless on the 2031 ballot if Bond/Clemens don't get at least 5 votes. The debate whether or not they get into the Hall will be over, the answer will be NEVER. For Team Bonds/Clemens, there needs to be pressure placed on the HOF to remove that rule. There is no need for it as long as the HOF chooses the committees and nominates players. The only reason for the rule is to CYA the HOF management from outside pressure.
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Thanks for being patient with the steroid argument.
I would like to see Mattinly get in!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
I'll guarantee he wasn't working out like Bonds and McGwire. And assuming every steroid he took was anabolic, which it probably wasn't, it only helps with protein synthesis within muscle fibers. If he didn’t cut out carbs and fat, and load up on lean protein, which he didn't... then he'd be lucky if half of his weight gain was muscle mass.
I'm assuming from his comments, not many of the players were doing things in away that was going to get results.
if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
Asked and answered.
No, i previously asked if you thought Steroids were cheating if they were not against the rules.
I asked a different question. you did not answer that one.
again, if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
I'll guarantee he wasn't working out like Bonds and McGwire. And assuming every steroid he took was anabolic, which it probably wasn't, it only helps with protein synthesis within muscle fibers. If he didn’t cut out carbs and fat, and load up on lean protein, which he didn't... then he'd be lucky if half of his weight gain was muscle mass.
I'm assuming from his comments, not many of the players were doing things in away that was going to get results.
if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
Asked and answered.
No, i previously asked if you thought Steroids were cheating if they were not against the rules.
I asked a different question. you did not answer that one.
again, if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
You're not reading my posts.
Not that I blame you! LOL
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
It might have seemed this thread went off topic, but the guys Donnie Baseball was competing with for votes were Bonds and Clemens who would normally be slam dunk HOFers with the except of the PED cloud over them.
As mentioned before, players with the PED cloud are not dealt with any consistency that applies to all players. And this minimum 5 vote rule is completely unnecessary when a HOF appointed committee already controls who the final 8 candidates for election would be. It would have been better to have 8 candidates without the steroid cloud so there can be some real voting and not a forum of PED grandstanding.
With all the imperfections of the Contemporary Era Committee, Jeff Kent deserved his place among baseball immortals. I just do not see any reason to keep Mattingly and Murphy out any longer. Both were considered the best in baseball for a stretch, but just did not pad their resumes with longevity numbers. Not every HOFer must have longevity numbers. Peak performance can be celebrated too. I expect to see them again in 2028. It's an exciting event.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
Comments
I think steroids were way more wide spread, much earlier than we realize.
I know Canseco wrote "the book" on steroids 20 years ago, but I sure wish Tom House would have written one 30 years before that. House has stated that he estimates that 6-7 pitchers on every staff in baseball was using steroids and HGH as far back as the early 1970s!!! He would know as he was a user himself at the time.
that would set the steroid timeline way earlier.
as you stated with the Chiefs players using back in the 1960s, they were already a known thing back then.
I wonder if baseball players said they did not want to lift in public as a diversion? we know that players were working out. Yaz and Seaver were weight training in the 1960s. Ryan was a workout feind starting in the 1970s. 1948 mentioned Ruth using resistance training 40 years before that.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If Jose Canseo's book is the defense, then he claimed that at least 80% of players were juicing at that time...so then there would be no competitive advantage for Bonds or McGwire or anyone else then. It would also mean that the character should not be in question because then that is what the league was for everyone.
Canseco also says that several juicers are already in the HOF.
I would not choose to equate usage of steroids or testosterone pre-1970 with post-1980 (with the decade between showing organic adoption among elite athletes). Russia did a lot of great work in developing process for doping programs used to maximize potential of their elite athletes. Players openly injected themselves with "steroids" since the 1930s - generally testosterone - which is banned today. It wasn't the same as what we saw in the 70s, 80s and 90s though so I would pause before conflating those eras.
MLB didn't care until the public started to see that steroid usage was emerging prolifically in the general population. When High School and College kids were using steroids then it was a problem and then MLB had to clamp down. So the players during this era got screwed by the senseless fickle stupidity of changing social mores - and this includes many players who likely had the personal integrity to do it without PEDs.
You're kind of all over the place in that post, but I think there was a general fear of lifting HEAVY weights in the 1970's with the exception of body builders and football players.
I remember buying my first set of weights in the early 1970's wanting to get bigger and stronger for football.
I was warned about becoming muscle bound. Ha ha, no such luck.
"Working out" meaning push ups, pull ups sit ups? Most likely not good for big muscle gain, but great for strength and your underlying muscle.
Resistance training, more effective, but similar to exercise.
Would love to see exactly what Tom House said. Occasional, haphazard use of steroids without serious weight training isn't going to do a lot for performance. Probably help with inflammation and recovery time though.
Here's what I found about HGH. I doubt anyone was using it prior to 1985 if it was that scarce, although I'm sure some people could get it;
You also mentioned Andro somewhere along the line. While it is a steroid, it's not nearly as effective as some of the others.
Canseco laughed about when McGwire admitted using it when it was legal. Jose said it was brilliant showing the andro when Big Mac was injecting himself with much "better" drugs.
You didn't see the complete transformation of guys' bodies in the 60's-80's.
Bonds and McGwire got HUGE. Barry was an athletic guy and Mark carried most of his strength in his lower body.
Their upper bodies became IMMENSE after using the juice.
Can you name any baseball players in the 1960's who got big like that?
Widespread (whatever that actually means) use, doesn't mean guys were getting big benefits.
Joe - I guess the only point I would take away from that is that cheating is cheating and some guys are better at cheating... and maybe baseball too.
Everything's fine until a guy like Ponzi comes along and ruins it for everyone.
Watch a late 50's of early 60's movie. The dudes where all muscled out. Looked like the movie Predator at the beginning. My HS was doing roids in 1980. you know if HS where doing it the pros were.
Is it "cheating" if it is not against the rules?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
for older guys who supposedly did not weight train, have you ever seen the pictures of Willie Mays? guy was pretty ripped up for not weight lifting.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I am sure that professional athletes would not have too much trouble acquiring whatever PED (HGH) they wanted with the type of connections people at that level have even when HGH was relatively new.
here are a few Tom House quotes talking about PED's in the 60s and 70s:
House, later an accomplished pitching coach with Texas and now co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and '70s. He and his teammates laughed and rationalized losses by saying, "We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed. And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."
House described the dynamic as similar to the majors in recent years: Players knew their competition had chemical help and felt compelled to keep pace. He said he and several teammates used amphetamines (known as "greenies"), human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
House was listed at 5 feet 11 and 190 pounds, and his weight increased to 215 or 220 while on steroids. He blamed the extra pounds for putting additional wear and tear on his knees; he had five surgeries on his right knee and two on his left.
House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff were "fiddling" with steroids or growth hormone. He said the drugs and devoted conditioning improved his recovery, but his velocity didn't budge.
"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 mph," House said. "I was a failed experiment."
this interview was from back in 2005
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He was very muscular, Mantle was as well. Similar to Bonds in Barry's early career.
I think this is purely perspective. Not enough people care about that distinction as I see it.
Thanks for the quotes. Too bad he didn't speak a little more seriously about it.
When Bonds started his major league career with the Pittsburgh Pirates, he was listed at 185 pounds. Eighteen years later, Bonds' weighed in at 228 pounds. He looked bigger than that to me.
"fiddling" isn't going to get it done. amphetamines are spoken of at length in Jim Bouton's book "Ball Four" he says the hurt your performance as much as they helped. He did say they were used by a lot of players and easily available. They don't however put 40 pounds of pure muscle on you.
"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said in a phone interview. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding. ...
So he had absolutely no idea what he was doing or how to do it. About as I expected.
It's cheating to use ILLEGAL drugs to enhance performance, even if the "rules" haven't been updated.
If it's against the law to possess a drug without a prescription it's cheating.
House appears to have known what he was doing though as he added 25-30 pounds of muscle
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If you cheat and it doesn't help your performance much, it's not as big a deal as if you figure out how to DOUBLE your numbers and diminish guys who are (or were) much better than you are.
Bonds didn't need to use, but he did, and now a lot of people actually think he is the GOAT.
McGwire and Sosa were not much more than slugs who became record setting HR hitters. Sosa was barely above an average player. McGwire couldn't carry KIllebrew's jock and the casual observer thinks he was MUCH better.
What if you were given the drugs by a doctor? a team doctor? remember, these guys are the rich and famous. they have connections us normals do not have
what were the repercussions pre 2005?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
His own words indicate he had NO IDEA what he was doing.
He never said 25-30 lbs of muscle. Not knowing what he was taking and no one knowing the best dietary regimen to maximize the results... a lot of that weight was most likely from fluid retention and increased appetite.
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They weren't, they weren't, still illegal.
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>
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Don't care if there were any. Different topic.
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>
We've done this time and time again, I'm bored with it.
Drugs that are ILLEGAL makes it cheating. Steroids were a controlled substance. Just because your employment contract doesn't specifically name every single illegal thing doesn't mean the ones omitted are OK.
_If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
_
Don't bother to go off an one of your tangents asking me anymore questions to drag the discussion on for eternity until you answer that question. I'll ask it again;
If it wasn't cheating, why did they lie about it, and why are most STILL lying about it?
For all we know, he just got old and fat and his knees wore out!
Well, there's no way of knowing. What you have is a few remarks in an interview and some seem like he was not being too serious.
I was brought up in a different, better time, I guess.
rules and laws are not always so aligned with right and wrong so as to make that simple of a distinction. I think this discussion is again off the rails. the amount of mental rigidity here prevents useful discourse on contentious subjects.
in the context of the interview, why would anyone assume House meant anything OTHER than muscle gain? The interview was about steroids/PED. when athletes are working out, and on gear, they are not gaining fat because of increased appetite. come on...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Uh huh. because that is what happens when professional athletes combine steroid use and weight training, they get fat...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
how would I know why people lie? social stigma? I dont know.
how would you know players were not getting scripts signed by team docs? the rich and famous have WAY more connections than you and I. look at entertainers like Elvis, Prince, Michael Jackson etc. they got pretty much whatever drugs they wanted from doctors. we never would have found any of it out had they not died because of it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. The point was, he doesn't elaborate on what he was doing exercise wise, so it's anyone's guess. He kind of sounds like a guy who just took whatever he could find and expected results.
Did he even say anything about working out in the interview? I'll look for it and see what I can find.
The steroids that Jerry Lewis took made him blow up like a balloon.
You don't think Elvis and the others were actually getting the drugs legally do you? It's NOT legal to lie to a Doctor to get a prescription for narcotics.
I'll guarantee he wasn't working out like Bonds and McGwire. And assuming every steroid he took was anabolic, which it probably wasn't, it only helps with protein synthesis within muscle fibers. If he didn’t cut out carbs and fat, and load up on lean protein, which he didn't... then he'd be lucky if half of his weight gain was muscle mass.
I'm assuming from his comments, not many of the players were doing things in away that was going to get results.
if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Well this post took a turn. I thought it would die on its own but it continues to live. As the OP I feel like I have to at least chime in on this debate.
I do think Bonds, Clemens, and Company from that era did something to improve their performance. Since they never tested positive or proven in court, I find it hard to put up some arbitrary wall to keep them out.
However all this debate will be fruitless on the 2031 ballot if Bond/Clemens don't get at least 5 votes. The debate whether or not they get into the Hall will be over, the answer will be NEVER. For Team Bonds/Clemens, there needs to be pressure placed on the HOF to remove that rule. There is no need for it as long as the HOF chooses the committees and nominates players. The only reason for the rule is to CYA the HOF management from outside pressure.
In 2031 it will be over for them in their lifetimes and ours. After that only you grandchildren will know
Bottom line for those with card "investments" in those players, HOF wise its game over.
Deal with it or not its your choice folks but it won't matter!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me (2025)
Asked and answered.
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Yes, it did. I was ready to stop posting about steroids on your thread. This will be my last.
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Bonds admitted that he used. It was testimony we're not supposed to find out, it was leaked.
Some of his samples were retested using better methods, they failed.
McGwire admitted to using, but claimed he only did it to get over injuries and get back out on the field.
Sosa failed an "anonymous" test in 2003. Recently, he admitted to "making mistakes" in order to recover from injuries.
Clemens never tested positive and was accused, but not convicted.
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Thanks for being patient with the steroid argument.
I would like to see Mattinly get in!
No, i previously asked if you thought Steroids were cheating if they were not against the rules.
I asked a different question. you did not answer that one.
again, if a player were to take steroids/HGH/PED and were doing it in such a way as to not get good results, would you consider that "cheating?"
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You're not reading my posts.
Not that I blame you! LOL
I don’t remember what we were discussing.
Hypertension symptoms.
It might have seemed this thread went off topic, but the guys Donnie Baseball was competing with for votes were Bonds and Clemens who would normally be slam dunk HOFers with the except of the PED cloud over them.
As mentioned before, players with the PED cloud are not dealt with any consistency that applies to all players. And this minimum 5 vote rule is completely unnecessary when a HOF appointed committee already controls who the final 8 candidates for election would be. It would have been better to have 8 candidates without the steroid cloud so there can be some real voting and not a forum of PED grandstanding.
With all the imperfections of the Contemporary Era Committee, Jeff Kent deserved his place among baseball immortals. I just do not see any reason to keep Mattingly and Murphy out any longer. Both were considered the best in baseball for a stretch, but just did not pad their resumes with longevity numbers. Not every HOFer must have longevity numbers. Peak performance can be celebrated too. I expect to see them again in 2028. It's an exciting event.
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