Sosa as a rookie was already a legit HR hitter with an electric bat. He hit home runs at a better rate than the league average hitter and he was only 21 with no discipline as a hitter. Raw and electric.
This is a time when hitting mechanics were evolving. Loads. Swing planes.
Later, Jose Bautista and Josh Donaldson both made mechanical adjustments to include more upper cuts on their swings and it paid off. They went' agains that old baseball grain of "swing level" and they improved greatly!
Sosa also made mechancial adjustments in his hands and load from 1997 to 1998. Keep in mind that even though sabermetrically that Sosa was not as good a hitter from 1994 to 1997 as he was from 1998-2003, he had already become a legit HR hitter.
From 1994 to 1997 Sosa was averaging 40 Home Runs per 162 games.
The notion that Sosa changed overnight is wrong. As laid out above there was an incrimental increase in his raw HR power and his sabermetric hitting.
From 1997 to 1998 Sosa took another big increase in hitting. He wasn't any more buff in 1998 compared to 1997 but he got a ton better. If he was taking steroids in 1998 he was certainly taking them in 1997.
Here is a pretty good examination of some changes he made from his rookie year, 1997, and to 1998:
Look at Sosa's first career home run. Higher hands. Not much of a power load. Small lift and step forward. Notice how the announcers remark how more home runs are expected. He did not have a good power swing and had no discipline either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcCbjt-wgPQ
Here is Sosa in 1997 as a legit elite HR hitter already at the MLB level and a consistent 125 OPS+ guy. His swing is not much different from his rookie year: Still has those high wagging hands, small left and small step forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIggxqFglZA&t=7s
Then he noticeably changed his his load to a reverse toe tap load to help him really stay back and to generate more power. He also held his hands noticeably lower which helped him with a more consisten swing plane especially on pitches lower in the strike zone.
That is a far different and more modern swing than when he was a rookie and even from the couple years before. This swing helped him generate more power than just a couple years prior and stay back on balls much better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgAieWcS3EE
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
@JoeBanzai tell me exactly when Sosa started taking steroids on this timeline.
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Then explain to me how much of his increase in production was due to steroids and how much was due to an extreme mechanical hitting change that is outlined above.
Also tell me how much his production increase was due to league wide factors that affected league averages by extreme margins in those years.
PS tell me how much of his physical body change was due to simply working out and how much was due to alleged steroid use. You do know you can have massive body change without PED, so tell me how much PED helped him in that regard too.
You are into facts so give those facts to me. Please.
no denial to it. there is no way to determine if or how much better someone's batting average becomes if they take steroids. and does it matter how much and which steroids? does it matter how often you take them? where they were made?
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
You don't post facts, you express opinions.
They're not so-called juicers it's a proven fact the used steroids.
Give you dates? How the heck should I know/ That's not the point. I already showed how much their cheating improved their performance. Read it for yourself.
I can't keep explaining this stuff for you, figure some things out for yourself.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@olb31 said:
no denial to it. there is no way to determine if or how much better someone's batting average becomes if they take steroids. and does it matter how much and which steroids? does it matter how often you take them? where they were made?
Exactly. That really is it. @ArtVandelay(I ask you to answer the same questions above I asked Banzi if you know the truth)
In the end, I think it is more of a case of the older players being a little jealous that more recent players were better than them...as well as the fans of those players too.
@olb31 said:
no denial to it. there is no way to determine if or how much better someone's batting average becomes if they take steroids. and does it matter how much and which steroids? does it matter how often you take them? where they were made?
Nobody EVER said anything about batting average. They can already put the bat on the ball. Getting stronger enables you to hit the ball FARTHER!
See above.
Some of your other questions are answered in Canseco's first book. You can get it on ebay for a few dollars. He explains in detail all the things you ask about.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
You don't post facts, you express opinions.
They're not so-called juicers it's a proven fact the used steroids.
Give you dates? How the heck should I know/ That's not the point. I already showed how much their cheating improved their performance. Read it for yourself.
I can't keep explaining this stuff for you, figure some things out for yourself.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
You don't post facts, you express opinions.
They're not so-called juicers it's a proven fact the used steroids.
Give you dates? How the heck should I know/ That's not the point. I already showed how much their cheating improved their performance. Read it for yourself.
I can't keep explaining this stuff for you, figure some things out for yourself.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
First, you debate like a child.
Second, I would assume Sosa started in 1997 probably after the regular season. October 15th. Happy now?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
You don't post facts, you express opinions.
They're not so-called juicers it's a proven fact the used steroids.
Give you dates? How the heck should I know/ That's not the point. I already showed how much their cheating improved their performance. Read it for yourself.
I can't keep explaining this stuff for you, figure some things out for yourself.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
No.
LOL, what I figured. You should prolly sit this one out. Maybe go into the yard and try the different loads/swings Sosa did above and experiment with his changes. There are a lot of factors out there for improvement. Start trying them out.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
You don't post facts, you express opinions.
They're not so-called juicers it's a proven fact the used steroids.
Give you dates? How the heck should I know/ That's not the point. I already showed how much their cheating improved their performance. Read it for yourself.
I can't keep explaining this stuff for you, figure some things out for yourself.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
No.
LOL, what I figured. You should prolly sit this one out. Maybe go into the yard and try the different loads/swings Sosa did above and experiment with his changes. There are a lot of factors out there for improvement. Start trying them out.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
Here's a fact. I went to "ignore" you and see your profile is private. What a surprise.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
That actually looks like a pretty incremental increase with very normal jumps as he aged and improved and an incremental decrease as the end.
Also, when you consider he had raw home run power from the begining, and top of the league type home run power before he broke out in 1998 already, that adds even more credence.
Where was the steroid jump? If he was taking them in 1998 he was most certainly taking them in 1997 because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998. He was even better than 1997 in the three previous years and had elite HR power.
Clearly he jumped in 1998 and that was from a major change in how he hit. For those just dismissing that you are showing ignorance on how a mechanical change he did could matter that much. It was not from steroids because he was just as big in 1997 as he was in 1998 as he was in 1996 and 1995.
2001 was his ultimate career year. Was he taking them that year but not the years prior?
Kirby Puckett
Age 24 and 25 OPS+ 86 with a total of FOUR home runs in 1,327 Plate Appearances.
Age 26-28 OPS+ 142 with a total of83 home runs in 2,082 Plate Appearances.
That seems far more fishy especially the home runs. He was no youngster when he had absolutely no power in MLB. Then all of a sudden, boom.
Sosa always had power even at age 21. Elite power before he broke out. A hitting change that made a more modern power swing and he broke out.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
You don't post facts, you express opinions.
They're not so-called juicers it's a proven fact the used steroids.
Give you dates? How the heck should I know/ That's not the point. I already showed how much their cheating improved their performance. Read it for yourself.
I can't keep explaining this stuff for you, figure some things out for yourself.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
No.
LOL, what I figured. You should prolly sit this one out. Maybe go into the yard and try the different loads/swings Sosa did above and experiment with his changes. There are a lot of factors out there for improvement. Start trying them out.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
Here's a fact. I went to "ignore" you and see your profile is private. What a surprise.
I think it's a false argument to try to determine how much benefit a single player achieved at any particular time. I certainly don't want this back and forth to ever end but I would have to support the cause arguing that there is evidence of advantage. It appears most people understand that roids didn't help with contact and the numbers show little change YoY during the steroid era in batting average.
@bgr said:
I think it's a false argument to try to determine how much benefit a single player achieved at any particular time. I certainly don't want this back and forth to ever end but I would have to support the cause arguing that there is evidence of advantage. It appears most people understand that roids didn't help with contact and the numbers show little change YoY during the steroid era in batting average.
BGR, would you conclude the league got together in the winter of 1992 and 1993 and all decided to start taking steroids? Or are there other factors at play as well since offense jumped so much and so quickly?
@olb31 said:
no denial to it. there is no way to determine if or how much better someone's batting average becomes if they take steroids. and does it matter how much and which steroids? does it matter how often you take them? where they were made?
Nobody EVER said anything about batting average. They can already put the bat on the ball. Getting stronger enables you to hit the ball FARTHER!
See above.
Some of your other questions are answered in Canseco's first book. You can get it on ebay for a few dollars. He explains in detail all the things you ask about.
well i guess lou ferrigno and arnold s. missed their calling. they should have played baseball. more muscle mass does not equate to hitting better or pitching better. roger and nolan weren't bench pressing 500 pounds neither was randy j.
i think you are making lots of assumptions here. can they help your skill, maybe. can they transform a good hitter to one of the top 3 -5 of all-time? very doubtful. steroids are not the end all be all and if it were that easy to get that good by taking them, who wouldn't take them? 10 years and 700 million is a lot of money.
so it comes down to this -- the steroids help that much, so it may be assumed that many more may have taken them or are still taking them OR
only the 10 or so players from 40 years ago did it and thats it?
@bgr said:
I think it's a false argument to try to determine how much benefit a single player achieved at any particular time. I certainly don't want this back and forth to ever end but I would have to support the cause arguing that there is evidence of advantage. It appears most people understand that roids didn't help with contact and the numbers show little change YoY during the steroid era in batting average.
!
There are other factors. Namely the ball and the strategy(with the strategy comes the swing).
HR per game of 1.39 in the year 2019 is the all time high in MLB.
The highest it ever got in the steroid era was 1.17...and that has been beaten five other times since 2017.
bgr has some nice points. more onus is put on the fastball and ko's. higher hr rates lower batting averages. more pitchers used less innings for the starters, strike zones smaller. there are lots of variables.
@bgr said:
I think it's a false argument to try to determine how much benefit a single player achieved at any particular time. I certainly don't want this back and forth to ever end but I would have to support the cause arguing that there is evidence of advantage. It appears most people understand that roids didn't help with contact and the numbers show little change YoY during the steroid era in batting average.
BGR, would you conclude the league got together in the winter of 1992 and 1993 and all decided to start taking steroids? Or are there other factors at play as well since offense jumped so much and so quickly?
I don't draw any definitive conclusions for anyone else. I think that people who are successfully taking Anabolic steroids should achieve more muscle mass. That should help them with recovery, muscle stability, and muscle strength. I would expect this to result in advantage in staying on the field, maintaining consistent muscle density as the season wears on, and additional power when contact is made. Players who are to adapt their swing to take advantage of their power should realize a significant improvement in their ability to hit it over the fences. I don't have to explain the data or figure out why it happened. I don't really care about this argument. It's stupid.
As far as these guys belonging in the HOF. I think so. By all accounts, including first-hand, it was pretty pervasive, and even encouraged organizationally. I don't recall anyone thinking there wasn't something going on when we were watching these guys mash balls. As kids we made jokes about it. MLB was aware and they were taking every advantage of the HR Frenzy bringing eyes back to baseball. Because of that... because players felt like it was necessary to compete because it was the norm... because MLB ignored it until the mob turned... that's why I think these players shouldn't be condemned so quickly... and the stuff about amphetamines is also completely true. Draw your line however you see fit I guess where you see cheating and where you don't.
@BGR I have to ask, did they all start taking steroids in the winter of 1992 and 1993 to cause such dramatic jump in offense for the next seven years? If you took out every perceived steroid user from the stats in the pre and during steroid era, there is still a large jump in offensive production around the league.
Here are the number of 40 HR hitters per season in the following eras:
4.6 from 1953 to 1961
2.2 from 1962-1968
6.5 from 1969-1970
1.7 from 1971-1980
I asked about Sosa above. How would you answer those questions? Also knowing that he was not big in 1989 but he had electric muscles and the frame to put on more muscles. What if someone like him just worked out naturally? People see large gains naturally all the time. He would see tremendous gains if he never lifted before and he had the frame and naturally ability to put on muscle mass(which some people simply cannot even with roids and he showed he did have)
My whole point in commenting is when people say a guy like Sosa would have been nothing without roids...but I showed above with his ascension, including his swing change, and that ascension was just as likely to happen without steroids as it is assuming he did it with steroids....and if someone were to point to the spot on his timeline where he did steroids(and it helped him tremendously) it simply would not make sense.
A lot of guys in the sport like Sosa began the physical strength training regiment back then for the first time in their life...unless all of them were on steroids.
The ones that didnt? Then why did those guys still increase in production league wide when you remove the 'known' steroid users?
I personally don't know for sure who did what and how much it helped. I'm not blind when I saw a lot of large muscle guys all of a sudden and I know you will be stronger using roids as opposed to not...but a lot of assumptions are being made as factual when they are indeed not...especially in terms of how a player would have done without steroids(from the perceived point where someon think they took them).
@bgr said:
As far as these guys belonging in the HOF. I think so. By all accounts, including first-hand, it was pretty pervasive, and even encouraged organizationally. I don't recall anyone thinking there wasn't something going on when we were watching these guys mash balls. As kids we made jokes about it. MLB was aware and they were taking every advantage of the HR Frenzy bringing eyes back to baseball. Because of that... because players felt like it was necessary to compete because it was the norm... because MLB ignored it until the mob turned... that's why I think these players shouldn't be condemned so quickly... and the stuff about amphetamines is also completely true. Draw your line however you see fit I guess where you see cheating and where you don't.
Cheating is as old as baseball...
Didn't see this post you answered that part. i am curious to hear your thoughts on it.
so it comes down to this -- the steroids help that much, so it may be assumed that many more may have taken them or are still taking them OR
only the 10 or so players from 40 years ago did it and thats it?
You nailed it again. What caused the huge jump in offense from 1994-1996 compared 1990-1992? If you take those 10 alleged steroid players out of the equation(for example take Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro, stats away from 1992 and from 1994), there is still a huge league jump in offense in 1994-1996 compared to 1990-1992.
So that means either nearly half the league started doing them in the the winter of 1992, then the other half in the winter of 1993 to cause such a big jump in offense starting in 1994...or the steroids weren't the cause of the huge jump in offense and didn't help as much as stated(if at all).
Either way it makes no sense to keep just a few players out because either the whole league was doing them, or the steroids didn't do anything to change their stats because their stats were going to change anyway from the league wide increase in offense starting in 1994.
In 1990 the hitters hit a home run once every 43 at bats
In 1991 once every 47.5 at bats
In 1992 once every 47 at bats
In 1993 once every 38.5....the tweener year. the so called year where the whole league must have begun starting taking steroids with presumably half in the off season becuase....
In 1994 the hitters hit a home run once every 33.3 at bats.
In 1995 once every 33.9 at bats
In 1996 once every 31.6 at bats!!
So what changed so much that in 1992 MLB hitters were hitting home runs once every 47 at bats and in 1994 once every 33.3 at bats, and by 1996 every 31.6?
In a 585 at bat season in 1992 the league average player hit 12.4 home runs
In a 585 at bat season in 1994 the league average player hit 17.5 home runs
In a 585 at bat season in 1996 the league average player hit 18.5 home runs
A 41.12% increase in 1994 compared to 1992!
A 49% increase in 1996 compared to 1992!
In 1992 McGwire hit a HR once every 11 at bats and in 1994 he hit one every 15 at bats(Injured that year with only 9 HR)
In 1992 Bonds hit a HR once every 13.9 at bats and in 1994 he hit one every 10.5 at bats.
In 1992 Canseco hit a HR once every 16.9 at bats and in 1994 he hit one every 13.8.
So if yo take Bonds and McGwire out of the league equation, the league still saw a 41% increase in home run ratio. Subtract Canseco from the league totals and it does not even move the needle in the league totals. I'm not even going to math it, but if you subtract all three from the league totals, instead of a 41.12 percent increase it might be 41.10 increase.
@bgr independent of the known steroid user, and the two biggest accused steroid users, the rest of the league had a 41% increase in home run ratio in such a short time. What caused them to do that?
So either the whole league was doing them, the steroids didn't do anything....or there were other key factors at work during what is known as the steroid era that caused the historic uptick in offense....and why wouldn't the accused steroid players ALSO see that benefit the league saw??
I am aware of the incongruity here. I do have a theory. I’ll leave it simply implied as I’m certain you will understand it and have likely already considered this aspect.
Using steroids effectively is a discipline all its own and it makes sense that the most dedicated athletes. The best of the best would also be the ones to have the necessary dedication to utilize doping effectively.
Pitchers were also using so this is why when we observe the distribution of HRs by player. It cut both ways. So we see an increase at the top but no increase overall in the league.
But again. I am not trying to convince anyone. Again I think the era is tarnished. Not the players.
Exactly. How in the world can a batter from that era be penalized when the pitchers were using as well. No one seems to care about Nolan Ryan being in the HOF.
@ArtVandelay said:
If you take Bonds' averages from 86 to 92 and apply them to the rest of his career, he looks like this.
.275 avg
526 home runs
1663 rbi's
1678 walks
This is actually very generous, as you would see a rapid drop off from age 33 to 42 much like Pujols, Griffey, Frank Thomas, Miggy, etc. So more than likely, he'd have far fewer at-bats, a natural power decrease, and fewer walks post age 32.
The league OPS in 1988 and 1989 was .696 and .695. It was .700 in 1992.
The league OPS in 1994 was .763, in 1996 it was 767. In 2000 it was .782!
If you took out every 'known' steroid user, those league percentages still went way up. So why don't you think a steroid free Bonds would also see a hitting increase in those years like a league wide set of players also saw?
So either the entire league did steroids to cause those huge increases, or other factors were also at play to cause a huge league wide jump in production.
If you can conclude when Bonds did steroids, there where do you separate his increase being from steroids, apart from his increase being from other factors that the entire league saw?
In either case, in your statistical scenario above, Bonds is going to see an increase in production post 1992, just like the rest of the league did, regardless of PED or not.
there was a natural dilution of talent during the 90s because of 2 rounds of expansion. 1993 and 1998. that adds what, 100 roster spots in a span of 5 seasons? that is a lot of AAA and AA level pitchers competing during that exact time frame. that could be one reason for the spike in OPS
@bgr said:
I think it's a false argument to try to determine how much benefit a single player achieved at any particular time. I certainly don't want this back and forth to ever end but I would have to support the cause arguing that there is evidence of advantage. It appears most people understand that roids didn't help with contact and the numbers show little change YoY during the steroid era in batting average.
BGR, would you conclude the league got together in the winter of 1992 and 1993 and all decided to start taking steroids? Or are there other factors at play as well since offense jumped so much and so quickly?
@coolstanley said:
Exactly. How in the world can a batter from that era be penalized when the pitchers were using as well. No one seems to care about Nolan Ryan being in the HOF.
very true. Nolan skates right by. people seem to forget who his pitching coach in Texas was...
ultimately it would not matter if every single player before 2005 used all of the steroids. it was simply not against the rules of MLB until 2005. there was the 1991 memo, but that was simply a memo.
already players in the HOF who admitted using steroids: bagwell and piazza. they both admitted to using andro which was reclassified in 2004 as a steroid.
ultimately it would not matter if every single player before 2005 used all of the steroids. it was simply not against the rules of MLB until 2005. there was the 1991 memo, but that was simply a memo.
already players in the HOF who admitted using steroids: bagwell and piazza. they both admitted to using andro which was reclassified in 2004 as a steroid.
As long as we don’t throw Clemens in the discussion you are safe to join the debate, right?
@olb31 said:
no denial to it. there is no way to determine if or how much better someone's batting average becomes if they take steroids. and does it matter how much and which steroids? does it matter how often you take them? where they were made?
Nobody EVER said anything about batting average. They can already put the bat on the ball. Getting stronger enables you to hit the ball FARTHER!
See above.
Some of your other questions are answered in Canseco's first book. You can get it on ebay for a few dollars. He explains in detail all the things you ask about.
well i guess lou ferrigno and arnold s. missed their calling. they should have played baseball. more muscle mass does not equate to hitting better or pitching better. roger and nolan weren't bench pressing 500 pounds neither was randy j.
>
Are you serious? These guys weren't baseball players. Nobody EVER said steroids could make a guy who can't play baseball a star baseball player!
Bonds was a tremendous hitter already. If you bothered to look at what I posted, you would have seen he went from hitting an average of 32 HR a season to 52. He wasn't hitting the ball more often, it was going farther because he was stronger.
As far as pitchers are concerned, steroids help with both strength and muscle recovery. They're not necessarily needing to get bigger.
Charlie Sheen was a great (had MLB potential) ballplayer before he became an actor. In an interview, he says for the movie "Major League" he trained hard and used steroids for 3 months and was able to increase his fastball by about 10mph. He was throwing in the 80's during filming. Most MLB pitchers were throwing in the low 90's at the time.
>
>
i think you are making lots of assumptions here. can they help your skill, maybe. can they transform a good hitter to one of the top 3 -5 of all-time? very doubtful. steroids are not the end all be all and if it were that easy to get that good by taking them, who wouldn't take them? 10 years and 700 million is a lot of money.
>
It's NOT easy. First you have to find them, then how to use them properly, cycle on and off, use different steroids for different results, then you have to be willing to work out religiously to gain the muscle strength to achieve the benefits. Some people don't even want to inject themselves with a needle.
>
>
so it comes down to this -- the steroids help that much, so it may be assumed that many more may have taken them or are still taking them OR
only the 10 or so players from 40 years ago did it and thats it?
>
>
I'm going to assume you never read Canseco's book. It's the only book I know of where an athlete explains how steroids helped him. He claims that without them he would have had trouble staying in the majors.
With them he was a star.
Just about everyone he named in the book ended up being users.
He does NOT name Bonds, but tells an interesting story about him.
Funny how the guys he named had huge years. McGwire and Giambi being two. We know Bonds, Arod and Sosa juiced. Seems like the top home run hitters of the era right there
>
>
P.S. to the yipping little poodle from 1948, you're ignored. Waste your time irritating someone else.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I think it's a false argument to try to determine how much benefit a single player achieved at any particular time. I certainly don't want this back and forth to ever end but I would have to support the cause arguing that there is evidence of advantage. It appears most people understand that roids didn't help with contact and the numbers show little change YoY during the steroid era in batting average.
BGR, would you conclude the league got together in the winter of 1992 and 1993 and all decided to start taking steroids? Or are there other factors at play as well since offense jumped so much and so quickly?
expansion happened in both 1993 and 1998
That is one aspect.
In the end, you can come up with five or six reasons to explain the offensive increase that has nothing to do with steroids.
ultimately it would not matter if every single player before 2005 used all of the steroids. it was simply not against the rules of MLB until 2005. there was the 1991 memo, but that was simply a memo.
already players in the HOF who admitted using steroids: bagwell and piazza. they both admitted to using andro which was reclassified in 2004 as a steroid.
Yup, you nave dominated joebanzi in every steroid debate I have seen on here. You pose questions and dilemmas that he cannot rectify, just like he could not here with the questions he was not capable of answering in regard to Sosa.
I don't know now if it's easy or not easy to find steroids, but in the late 80s it was super easy, as many students at my high school were using them, and using them correctly, apparently.
This was a high school of maybe 500 students total in the 4 grades, and these were kids with no potential of going further than their high school sports career. But students from that period set all kinds of athletic records for my school, many that still stand.
ultimately it would not matter if every single player before 2005 used all of the steroids. it was simply not against the rules of MLB until 2005. there was the 1991 memo, but that was simply a memo.
already players in the HOF who admitted using steroids: bagwell and piazza. they both admitted to using andro which was reclassified in 2004 as a steroid.
As long as we don’t throw Clemens in the discussion you are safe to join the debate, right?
Im always safe to debate!! I just dont know as much about other individual cases.
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
Yup. Even in 1969 there was a big article in Sports Illustrated about it. They were always there and being used. Yet, just because Sosa and McGwire broke a big record people started to have hurt feelings.
But it really got people angry when Bonds broke the record. I don't think people liked him as much. If Bonds didn't break the record, McGwire and Sosa might have skated by.
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
Nolan Ryan had an extensive strength training regime in the early 1970's with the Angels. It was built around weight lifiting. His philosophy was to not max out, but he most certainly did weight training and squatted often to improved his strength.
Also, players did body weight exercises all throughout baseballl history. It is not weight training but it still increases muscle strenght/endurance. It is resistance training...the body is the weight instead of the iron. So if someone did steroids and body training they would also see benefits.
Even Ruth used medicine balls, cable pullley exericses, and there are videos of him leg pressing his trainer. So they all did resistance training even before weights.
Comments
Sosa as a rookie was already a legit HR hitter with an electric bat. He hit home runs at a better rate than the league average hitter and he was only 21 with no discipline as a hitter. Raw and electric.
This is a time when hitting mechanics were evolving. Loads. Swing planes.
Later, Jose Bautista and Josh Donaldson both made mechanical adjustments to include more upper cuts on their swings and it paid off. They went' agains that old baseball grain of "swing level" and they improved greatly!
Sosa also made mechancial adjustments in his hands and load from 1997 to 1998. Keep in mind that even though sabermetrically that Sosa was not as good a hitter from 1994 to 1997 as he was from 1998-2003, he had already become a legit HR hitter.
From 1994 to 1997 Sosa was averaging 40 Home Runs per 162 games.
The notion that Sosa changed overnight is wrong. As laid out above there was an incrimental increase in his raw HR power and his sabermetric hitting.
From 1997 to 1998 Sosa took another big increase in hitting. He wasn't any more buff in 1998 compared to 1997 but he got a ton better. If he was taking steroids in 1998 he was certainly taking them in 1997.
Here is a pretty good examination of some changes he made from his rookie year, 1997, and to 1998:
Look at Sosa's first career home run. Higher hands. Not much of a power load. Small lift and step forward. Notice how the announcers remark how more home runs are expected. He did not have a good power swing and had no discipline either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcCbjt-wgPQ
Here is Sosa in 1997 as a legit elite HR hitter already at the MLB level and a consistent 125 OPS+ guy. His swing is not much different from his rookie year: Still has those high wagging hands, small left and small step forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIggxqFglZA&t=7s
Then he noticeably changed his his load to a reverse toe tap load to help him really stay back and to generate more power. He also held his hands noticeably lower which helped him with a more consisten swing plane especially on pitches lower in the strike zone.
That is a far different and more modern swing than when he was a rookie and even from the couple years before. This swing helped him generate more power than just a couple years prior and stay back on balls much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgAieWcS3EE
It was not just steroids.
Sosa;
First 1088 games; SLG .469, OPS .777, OPS+ 107, HR per season 23.
Next 1050 games; SLG .621, OPS 1.006, OPS+ 156, HR per season 52.
Bonds;
First 2000 games; SLG .559, OPS .968, OPS+ 163, HR per season 32.
Next 716 games SLG .781, OPS 1.316, OPS+241, HR per season 52.
Puckett;
First 924 games SLG .469, OPS .826, OPS+ 122, HR per season 16.
Next 859 games; SLG 485, OPS .848, OPS+ 126, HR per season 18.5.
Good night ladies and gentlemen.
how can you measure how much better a hitter or pitcher becomes by taking "steroids"?
Cloning!
With a steroidometer of course!
Very poor examination. Try again.
Nothing poor about it. No opinions added, just the facts.
OBVIOUS that juicers numbers jump dramatically.
You just cant accept being wrong. Typical of many here.
Actually, is extremely poor. Does absolutely nothing to refute the factual posts I wrote above. Nothing. Zero.
Give me the date the so called juicers started if you are so into facts and then tell me how much of their success or decline is attributed to the use of steroids.
@JoeBanzai tell me exactly when Sosa started taking steroids on this timeline.
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Then explain to me how much of his increase in production was due to steroids and how much was due to an extreme mechanical hitting change that is outlined above.
Also tell me how much his production increase was due to league wide factors that affected league averages by extreme margins in those years.
PS tell me how much of his physical body change was due to simply working out and how much was due to alleged steroid use. You do know you can have massive body change without PED, so tell me how much PED helped him in that regard too.
You are into facts so give those facts to me. Please.
it amazes me that 25 years later people are still in denial.
no denial to it. there is no way to determine if or how much better someone's batting average becomes if they take steroids. and does it matter how much and which steroids? does it matter how often you take them? where they were made?
Oh goodie more steroid talk.. Oh goodie Kirby Puckett has now entered the fray..
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
You don't post facts, you express opinions.
They're not so-called juicers it's a proven fact the used steroids.
Give you dates? How the heck should I know/ That's not the point. I already showed how much their cheating improved their performance. Read it for yourself.
I can't keep explaining this stuff for you, figure some things out for yourself.
Exactly. That really is it. @ArtVandelay(I ask you to answer the same questions above I asked Banzi if you know the truth)
In the end, I think it is more of a case of the older players being a little jealous that more recent players were better than them...as well as the fans of those players too.
Nobody EVER said anything about batting average. They can already put the bat on the ball. Getting stronger enables you to hit the ball FARTHER!
See above.
Some of your other questions are answered in Canseco's first book. You can get it on ebay for a few dollars. He explains in detail all the things you ask about.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
First, you debate like a child.
Second, I would assume Sosa started in 1997 probably after the regular season. October 15th. Happy now?
LOL, what I figured. You should prolly sit this one out. Maybe go into the yard and try the different loads/swings Sosa did above and experiment with his changes. There are a lot of factors out there for improvement. Start trying them out.
SO again, the only fact you know is that YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS...so stop acting like you do. Answer those questions if you know the facts, otherwise have the good night you said you were going to have...because your analysis is terrible.
Tell me how much Sosa's improvement was due to his mechanical change and how much was due to steroids? I'm waiting Mr. factual.
Tell me how much steroids even helped improve his physic/strength/speed. If he worked out without steroids he would see X improvement. If he worked out with steroids he would see Y improvement. Fill in the X and Y for me as factual.
Tell me why Beltre's improvement was due to simply maturing and tell me how much of Sosa's was due to simply maturing and how much due to steroids. Again fill in the X and Y. X improvement was due to maturing. Y was due to steroid use.
Again, simply drop the pin on this Sosa timeline when he started doing steroids. Doesn't have to be exact date...within a month would be nice since you know so many facts:
Sosa
1989-1992 age 20-23 OPS+ 85
1993-1996 age 24-27 OPS+ 121
1997 age 28 OPS+ 99
1998-2000 age 29-31 OPS+ 157
2001 age 32 OPS+ 203
2002-2003 age 33-34 OPS+ 147
2004 age 35 OPS+ 114
2005 age 36 OPS+ 78
2007 age 38 OPS+101
Let's see those facts.
Here's a fact. I went to "ignore" you and see your profile is private. What a surprise.
Sorry you feel that way. Have a good night.
SUCCESS!
I think it's a false argument to try to determine how much benefit a single player achieved at any particular time. I certainly don't want this back and forth to ever end but I would have to support the cause arguing that there is evidence of advantage. It appears most people understand that roids didn't help with contact and the numbers show little change YoY during the steroid era in batting average.
BGR, would you conclude the league got together in the winter of 1992 and 1993 and all decided to start taking steroids? Or are there other factors at play as well since offense jumped so much and so quickly?
well i guess lou ferrigno and arnold s. missed their calling. they should have played baseball. more muscle mass does not equate to hitting better or pitching better. roger and nolan weren't bench pressing 500 pounds neither was randy j.
i think you are making lots of assumptions here. can they help your skill, maybe. can they transform a good hitter to one of the top 3 -5 of all-time? very doubtful. steroids are not the end all be all and if it were that easy to get that good by taking them, who wouldn't take them? 10 years and 700 million is a lot of money.
so it comes down to this -- the steroids help that much, so it may be assumed that many more may have taken them or are still taking them OR
only the 10 or so players from 40 years ago did it and thats it?
There are other factors. Namely the ball and the strategy(with the strategy comes the swing).
HR per game of 1.39 in the year 2019 is the all time high in MLB.
The highest it ever got in the steroid era was 1.17...and that has been beaten five other times since 2017.
bgr has some nice points. more onus is put on the fastball and ko's. higher hr rates lower batting averages. more pitchers used less innings for the starters, strike zones smaller. there are lots of variables.
I don't draw any definitive conclusions for anyone else. I think that people who are successfully taking Anabolic steroids should achieve more muscle mass. That should help them with recovery, muscle stability, and muscle strength. I would expect this to result in advantage in staying on the field, maintaining consistent muscle density as the season wears on, and additional power when contact is made. Players who are to adapt their swing to take advantage of their power should realize a significant improvement in their ability to hit it over the fences. I don't have to explain the data or figure out why it happened. I don't really care about this argument. It's stupid.
As far as these guys belonging in the HOF. I think so. By all accounts, including first-hand, it was pretty pervasive, and even encouraged organizationally. I don't recall anyone thinking there wasn't something going on when we were watching these guys mash balls. As kids we made jokes about it. MLB was aware and they were taking every advantage of the HR Frenzy bringing eyes back to baseball. Because of that... because players felt like it was necessary to compete because it was the norm... because MLB ignored it until the mob turned... that's why I think these players shouldn't be condemned so quickly... and the stuff about amphetamines is also completely true. Draw your line however you see fit I guess where you see cheating and where you don't.
Cheating is as old as baseball...
@BGR I have to ask, did they all start taking steroids in the winter of 1992 and 1993 to cause such dramatic jump in offense for the next seven years? If you took out every perceived steroid user from the stats in the pre and during steroid era, there is still a large jump in offensive production around the league.
Here are the number of 40 HR hitters per season in the following eras:
4.6 from 1953 to 1961
2.2 from 1962-1968
6.5 from 1969-1970
1.7 from 1971-1980
I asked about Sosa above. How would you answer those questions? Also knowing that he was not big in 1989 but he had electric muscles and the frame to put on more muscles. What if someone like him just worked out naturally? People see large gains naturally all the time. He would see tremendous gains if he never lifted before and he had the frame and naturally ability to put on muscle mass(which some people simply cannot even with roids and he showed he did have)
My whole point in commenting is when people say a guy like Sosa would have been nothing without roids...but I showed above with his ascension, including his swing change, and that ascension was just as likely to happen without steroids as it is assuming he did it with steroids....and if someone were to point to the spot on his timeline where he did steroids(and it helped him tremendously) it simply would not make sense.
A lot of guys in the sport like Sosa began the physical strength training regiment back then for the first time in their life...unless all of them were on steroids.
The ones that didnt? Then why did those guys still increase in production league wide when you remove the 'known' steroid users?
I personally don't know for sure who did what and how much it helped. I'm not blind when I saw a lot of large muscle guys all of a sudden and I know you will be stronger using roids as opposed to not...but a lot of assumptions are being made as factual when they are indeed not...especially in terms of how a player would have done without steroids(from the perceived point where someon think they took them).
Didn't see this post you answered that part. i am curious to hear your thoughts on it.
You nailed it again. What caused the huge jump in offense from 1994-1996 compared 1990-1992? If you take those 10 alleged steroid players out of the equation(for example take Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro, stats away from 1992 and from 1994), there is still a huge league jump in offense in 1994-1996 compared to 1990-1992.
So that means either nearly half the league started doing them in the the winter of 1992, then the other half in the winter of 1993 to cause such a big jump in offense starting in 1994...or the steroids weren't the cause of the huge jump in offense and didn't help as much as stated(if at all).
Either way it makes no sense to keep just a few players out because either the whole league was doing them, or the steroids didn't do anything to change their stats because their stats were going to change anyway from the league wide increase in offense starting in 1994.
In MLB here are the home runs per at bats.
In 1990 the hitters hit a home run once every 43 at bats
In 1991 once every 47.5 at bats
In 1992 once every 47 at bats
In 1993 once every 38.5....the tweener year. the so called year where the whole league must have begun starting taking steroids with presumably half in the off season becuase....
In 1994 the hitters hit a home run once every 33.3 at bats.
In 1995 once every 33.9 at bats
In 1996 once every 31.6 at bats!!
So what changed so much that in 1992 MLB hitters were hitting home runs once every 47 at bats and in 1994 once every 33.3 at bats, and by 1996 every 31.6?
In a 585 at bat season in 1992 the league average player hit 12.4 home runs
In a 585 at bat season in 1994 the league average player hit 17.5 home runs
In a 585 at bat season in 1996 the league average player hit 18.5 home runs
A 41.12% increase in 1994 compared to 1992!
A 49% increase in 1996 compared to 1992!
In 1992 McGwire hit a HR once every 11 at bats and in 1994 he hit one every 15 at bats(Injured that year with only 9 HR)
In 1992 Bonds hit a HR once every 13.9 at bats and in 1994 he hit one every 10.5 at bats.
In 1992 Canseco hit a HR once every 16.9 at bats and in 1994 he hit one every 13.8.
So if yo take Bonds and McGwire out of the league equation, the league still saw a 41% increase in home run ratio. Subtract Canseco from the league totals and it does not even move the needle in the league totals. I'm not even going to math it, but if you subtract all three from the league totals, instead of a 41.12 percent increase it might be 41.10 increase.
@bgr independent of the known steroid user, and the two biggest accused steroid users, the rest of the league had a 41% increase in home run ratio in such a short time. What caused them to do that?
So either the whole league was doing them, the steroids didn't do anything....or there were other key factors at work during what is known as the steroid era that caused the historic uptick in offense....and why wouldn't the accused steroid players ALSO see that benefit the league saw??
I am aware of the incongruity here. I do have a theory. I’ll leave it simply implied as I’m certain you will understand it and have likely already considered this aspect.
Using steroids effectively is a discipline all its own and it makes sense that the most dedicated athletes. The best of the best would also be the ones to have the necessary dedication to utilize doping effectively.
Pitchers were also using so this is why when we observe the distribution of HRs by player. It cut both ways. So we see an increase at the top but no increase overall in the league.
But again. I am not trying to convince anyone. Again I think the era is tarnished. Not the players.
Exactly. How in the world can a batter from that era be penalized when the pitchers were using as well. No one seems to care about Nolan Ryan being in the HOF.
2025 SEC bowl record 4-10
SEC bowl record vs BIG TEN last two years 2-8
there was a natural dilution of talent during the 90s because of 2 rounds of expansion. 1993 and 1998. that adds what, 100 roster spots in a span of 5 seasons? that is a lot of AAA and AA level pitchers competing during that exact time frame. that could be one reason for the spike in OPS
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
expansion happened in both 1993 and 1998
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
very true. Nolan skates right by. people seem to forget who his pitching coach in Texas was...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I love me a good PED debate!!!
ultimately it would not matter if every single player before 2005 used all of the steroids. it was simply not against the rules of MLB until 2005. there was the 1991 memo, but that was simply a memo.
already players in the HOF who admitted using steroids: bagwell and piazza. they both admitted to using andro which was reclassified in 2004 as a steroid.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As long as we don’t throw Clemens in the discussion you are safe to join the debate, right?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
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Are you serious? These guys weren't baseball players. Nobody EVER said steroids could make a guy who can't play baseball a star baseball player!
Bonds was a tremendous hitter already. If you bothered to look at what I posted, you would have seen he went from hitting an average of 32 HR a season to 52. He wasn't hitting the ball more often, it was going farther because he was stronger.
As far as pitchers are concerned, steroids help with both strength and muscle recovery. They're not necessarily needing to get bigger.
Charlie Sheen was a great (had MLB potential) ballplayer before he became an actor. In an interview, he says for the movie "Major League" he trained hard and used steroids for 3 months and was able to increase his fastball by about 10mph. He was throwing in the 80's during filming. Most MLB pitchers were throwing in the low 90's at the time.
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It's NOT easy. First you have to find them, then how to use them properly, cycle on and off, use different steroids for different results, then you have to be willing to work out religiously to gain the muscle strength to achieve the benefits. Some people don't even want to inject themselves with a needle.
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I'm going to assume you never read Canseco's book. It's the only book I know of where an athlete explains how steroids helped him. He claims that without them he would have had trouble staying in the majors.
With them he was a star.
Just about everyone he named in the book ended up being users.
He does NOT name Bonds, but tells an interesting story about him.
Funny how the guys he named had huge years. McGwire and Giambi being two. We know Bonds, Arod and Sosa juiced. Seems like the top home run hitters of the era right there
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P.S. to the yipping little poodle from 1948, you're ignored. Waste your time irritating someone else.
@bgr > @craig44 said:
That is one aspect.
In the end, you can come up with five or six reasons to explain the offensive increase that has nothing to do with steroids.
Yup, you nave dominated joebanzi in every steroid debate I have seen on here. You pose questions and dilemmas that he cannot rectify, just like he could not here with the questions he was not capable of answering in regard to Sosa.
I don't know now if it's easy or not easy to find steroids, but in the late 80s it was super easy, as many students at my high school were using them, and using them correctly, apparently.
This was a high school of maybe 500 students total in the 4 grades, and these were kids with no potential of going further than their high school sports career. But students from that period set all kinds of athletic records for my school, many that still stand.
Im always safe to debate!! I just dont know as much about other individual cases.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
people assume steroids in baseball (and sport in general) started in the 90s, not so. Tom House (Nolan Ryans pitching coach with Texas) admitted to using both Steroids and HGH back in the early 70s when he played for the Atlanta Braves. The San Diego Chargers are well known to have used Steroids at least as early as 1963.
Steroids have been around a lot longer than most realize.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What years were the controversy over the baseball being suped up? I remember the debate was the baseball vs. steroids .
1987 was the year that popped up.
Also, during the 1990's that was always a question, whether it was the juiced ball itself or the flatter seems.
Yup. Even in 1969 there was a big article in Sports Illustrated about it. They were always there and being used. Yet, just because Sosa and McGwire broke a big record people started to have hurt feelings.
But it really got people angry when Bonds broke the record. I don't think people liked him as much. If Bonds didn't break the record, McGwire and Sosa might have skated by.
The strength coach for the Kansas City Chiefs was allegedly giving them to his players in the late 1960's.
In baseball at that time, there was still a resistance to weight training for fear of becoming "muscle bound".
Harmon Killebrew asked that a bar be installed in the Twins facility for him to use for strength training in the 1960's.
The prevailing response by the players was "what do you need that for, you're already the strongest player in the league?"
Canseco ushered in the real era of steroids by using them in a scientific manner to achieve maximum results.
For instance; he didn't just want to get bigger, he wanted to get faster too. He also felt that under medical supervision, steroids could help many people live more pain free lives.
Dabbling around with steroids isn't going to do much for you.
Like him or not, his book explains a lot.
Nolan Ryan had an extensive strength training regime in the early 1970's with the Angels. It was built around weight lifiting. His philosophy was to not max out, but he most certainly did weight training and squatted often to improved his strength.
Also, players did body weight exercises all throughout baseballl history. It is not weight training but it still increases muscle strenght/endurance. It is resistance training...the body is the weight instead of the iron. So if someone did steroids and body training they would also see benefits.
Even Ruth used medicine balls, cable pullley exericses, and there are videos of him leg pressing his trainer. So they all did resistance training even before weights.