Maybe so, but in my specialized collecting area, all FleaBay ever has is low-end swill. The good stuff I want is always at Heritage (and sometimes at Stacks or GC).
And do not forget that many sellers tack on an additional 10%-ish on their listings to cover their eBay selling fees...so you may not see a buyer's premium but it's there. At least that was what I did when I bought and sold stuff on eBay 10+ years ago. I have not searched eBay in 10+ years. There is so much junk to sort through. Have I missed a few things possibly? Sure, but my sanity is worth way more.
Lmao
Every seller in every venue is trying to cover their costs. The price is the price. If you want it at $100, who cares how the price got to $100?
Not sure what there is to laugh about. I agree with you. I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true. That's all. I hope you got a good knee slapper of a laugh at what I said. I try to be funny sometimes but in this case I was just stating dry facts. Whatever.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
It may not affect high end one of a kind items, or a coin that 2 whales chase needing for registry or similar, but I can assure it will matter to the avg bidder who bids based on final number paid. But more importantly, it will affect the take home of consignors who sell thru their platform, again, unless some kind of special arrangement has been made on a consignment, which again, would most likely be a high value consignment or auction headline type material. I see it Helping GC more and more both from bidders and consignors.
@jmlanzaf said:
2. Consignors might realize more at Heritage than GC, just not bottom end consignors. Heritage uses the BP to incentivize preferred consignors. With a premium consignment, you might get 110% or more of the hammer price. GC can't offer that
3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000.
All of this is known. It's been known for a century. There's nothing being reinvented here.
" 3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000." Sorry, I'm not able to follow. Can you explain it.
Also, there can be a seller's commission as well as the buyer's commission.
I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true.
It's true there is no buyers fee for auctions on eBay. Your final bid (plus shipping if there is a shipping charge included in the auction terms) is what you owe. That's it- there are no additional fees.
Just bought a few dozen low priced modern coins on ebay, 40 to be exact, combined shipping, no tax, no fees, no extra charge for CCs. I wouldn't be able to buy a $10-$40 coins on Heritage without getting stuck with a $29 minimum BP on each coin.
For the better coins ( not moderns) I'll stay with GC with there 10% BP and 12.5% using a CC
@pcgscacgold said:
The fee is part of what you are willing to pay. Doesn't really matter in the end. It does take away from the seller, unless they are big enough to get a cut of the BP.
I have seen this posted before, but it's not really true. If the buyer wants it they will bid more and fight over it regardless of the fees, over time they are willing to pay more and more even if they think they are not. Like saying you won't buy a fancy coffee because the price went up and next week you are buying three a day just like before the price increases.
Maybe not true for you but very true for me and many others. I set a price and bid to that. It does not matter if they charge 10%, 12.5% (both at GC) or 20% or 22%. Just comes off what the seller would earn.
It matters if your underbidder is not as disciplined or as smart as you are.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I had an important consignment with Heritage this past summer. It was challenging in that there was a lot of historical information that needed to be condensed and included in the auction description. Heritage was excellent in working with me on it.
One would think that competition would restrain the BP, but Heritage dominates the market for truly high-end rarities. The competitors are barely trying to keep up.
Heritage
Best bidding platform, most bid types
Best payment system, easiest to give your money away
Best photography, especially rotating photos on premium pieces
Best auction history for pricing research
Most likely by far to provoke whale fights
Stacks
Really a mid-range auction house at this point. Best for coins 2k to 15k, Heritage better above 15k.
Repeated technological glitches, no in house payments, bad photos
Hard to use interface, hard to research history
Great Collections
Best in the business for low value coins, perhaps $100 to $4,999.
Hard close is an issue, especially on higher value items (this has been debated ad nauseum but yes it matters)
Needs more marketing on super premium pieces
Bourse dealers
Could undercut Heritage et al, in theory
But lacking in capital for rare items, lacking in reach to match rare items with buyers
Tend to go for the kill rather than the relationship
Typical song and dance "Is this a distressed sale? I have no buyers for this right now! Blah Blah."
Post-Covid Cultural Change
Rampant digital gambling
People glued to screens want to search digitally, not browse low-throughput bourse cases and dreck boxes
Some percentage of buyers prefer overpaying at competitive auctions over buying cheaper at fixed price listings
Buyers on platforms like eBay don't realize they can get better prices direct from the underlying dealers
Conclusion
Most of the money is in higher end items, and Heritage has an increasingly large advantage in whale fight territory.
Trends favor digital sophistication and consolidated bidding platforms. Other players could capitalize but so far have shown little inclination to do so.
Maybe so, but in my specialized collecting area, all FleaBay ever has is low-end swill. The good stuff I want is always at Heritage (and sometimes at Stacks or GC).
And do not forget that many sellers tack on an additional 10%-ish on their listings to cover their eBay selling fees...so you may not see a buyer's premium but it's there. At least that was what I did when I bought and sold stuff on eBay 10+ years ago. I have not searched eBay in 10+ years. There is so much junk to sort through. Have I missed a few things possibly? Sure, but my sanity is worth way more.
Lmao
Every seller in every venue is trying to cover their costs. The price is the price. If you want it at $100, who cares how the price got to $100?
What people seem to be saying is that HA appears to be trying to cover much more than their costs.
That is actually NOT what the person i was responding to was saying. He was talking about eBay.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
EVERYONE i know backs out the BP. In a premium auction, half of the lots often sell to dealers. Do you think even one of them is ignoring the BP in calculating their bids?
So you are saying that you personally know every single bidder that does or has bid at Heritage, impressive.
Dealers are like any group of people and will fall into a bell curve. Some are very smart, some are not very smart, and most fall somewhere in the middle. Also, the simple law of averages dictates that yes some of them are ignoring the BP at least some of the time, as you said it's a choice and ignoring the BP is a valid choice.
Those can be hard to snare Nevada there's usually someone willing to pay $5 or $10 over because it's only $10. But that really isn't directly a BP issue.
Sure it's a BP issue, according to you your bid already has the BP calculated into it, yet you are not winning 100% of the auctions you bid on. That means either buyers (dealers) are willing to accept a lower margin than you are, they have decided to disregard the BP and bid higher than you, or collectors are willing to pay more/ignore the BP. Neither of us can know for sure which (lower margin or ignore the BP) those buyers have chosen which means that you cannot be 100% certain that other bidders are not ignoring the BP simply because you do.
@jmlanzaf said:
And yet they are constantly calling it "feebay" and talking about the exorbitant fees...
The fees are high on ebay for sellers that don't have a store, you seem to conveniently forget that not everyone who sells on ebay has a store or is a power seller with discounted selling rates. Without a store the fees are what 13-15% which may be less than the cost to consign with Heritage (or not) but also includes all the potential headaches.
The fees on ebay even without a store are significantly LOWER than every auction house, including GC. For coins under $1000 GC fees are over 15%. (Corrected)
So, no, I reject your "correction". They remain the best bargain in retail.
If you read carefully, I said "ALL THE PEOPLE I KNOW" (emphasis added) not everyone bidding. I've already acknowledged that there are some ignorant or unsophisticated bidders.
I'm not sure what the fact that, little old me with my limited resources, doesn't win all of the auctions I bid on means. Thank God I don't, I'd be in collections. But, we can be fairly certain that it is USUALLY not ignoring the BP by most bidders, otherwise they'd be $29 higher than me, not $5.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@hedgefundtradingdesk
Snipers love GC due to the hard stop. It adds that gambling aspect and that appears to be a bigger and bigger part of the hobby. I don't think a hard stop is best for a seller though.
@Luxor said:
Sayōnara heritage. They were my least favorite auction house by a large margin to begin with. I wonder if I should go on their website and delete my bank and CC info?
The biggest auction house in the sector knows less about their own business than you do.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@keyman64 said:
And do not forget that many sellers tack on an additional 10%-ish on their listings to cover their eBay selling fees...
My eBay prices include my costs. Buyers are welcome to meet me locally to pick something up and I'll take even more than 10% off the eBay price but somehow, nobody ever takes me up on the offer.
I wonder why not.
I had a guy complain about shipping the other day. It was $1.99 comic with $5 shipping. [West coast postage is over $5, east coast shipping is $4.60.] I told him my net on a single comic is only 60 cents. I offered to send it to him for free if he shipped a SASE with whatever packaging he wanted. Oddly he didn't take me up on it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Maybe so, but in my specialized collecting area, all FleaBay ever has is low-end swill. The good stuff I want is always at Heritage (and sometimes at Stacks or GC).
And do not forget that many sellers tack on an additional 10%-ish on their listings to cover their eBay selling fees...so you may not see a buyer's premium but it's there. At least that was what I did when I bought and sold stuff on eBay 10+ years ago. I have not searched eBay in 10+ years. There is so much junk to sort through. Have I missed a few things possibly? Sure, but my sanity is worth way more.
Lmao
Every seller in every venue is trying to cover their costs. The price is the price. If you want it at $100, who cares how the price got to $100?
Not sure what there is to laugh about. I agree with you. I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true. That's all. I hope you got a good knee slapper of a laugh at what I said. I try to be funny sometimes but in this case I was just stating dry facts. Whatever.
Sorry, perhaps laughing was excessive. I want really disagreeing. It just struck me as funny that anyone needs to explain to people on this thread (not you) that everything you buy has a built in "BP". I don't know what they think the gross margins are at Walmart, but they are over 20%. People just don't complain when they don't see it spelled out.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
One would think that competition would restrain the BP, but Heritage dominates the market for truly high-end rarities. The competitors are barely trying to keep up.
Heritage
Best bidding platform, most bid types
Best payment system, easiest to give your money away
Best photography, especially rotating photos on premium pieces
Best auction history for pricing research
Most likely by far to provoke whale fights
Stacks
Really a mid-range auction house at this point. Best for coins 2k to 15k, Heritage better above 15k.
Repeated technological glitches, no in house payments, bad photos
Hard to use interface, hard to research history
Great Collections
Best in the business for low value coins, perhaps $100 to $4,999.
Hard close is an issue, especially on higher value items (this has been debated ad nauseum but yes it matters)
Needs more marketing on super premium pieces
Bourse dealers
Could undercut Heritage et al, in theory
But lacking in capital for rare items, lacking in reach to match rare items with buyers
Tend to go for the kill rather than the relationship
Typical song and dance "Is this a distressed sale? I have no buyers for this right now! Blah Blah."
Post-Covid Cultural Change
Rampant digital gambling
People glued to screens want to search digitally, not browse low-throughput bourse cases and dreck boxes
Some percentage of buyers prefer overpaying at competitive auctions over buying cheaper at fixed price listings
Buyers on platforms like eBay don't realize they can get better prices direct from the underlying dealers
Conclusion
Most of the money is in higher end items, and Heritage has an increasingly large advantage in whale fight territory.
Trends favor digital sophistication and consolidated bidding platforms. Other players could capitalize but so far have shown little inclination to do so.
Partly, it's reputation and customer base. But, as I mentioned earlier, they use BP to incentivize consignors. Even little old me had occasionally gotten 5% over hammer. Actual whales are getting 10+% over hammer.
It's really not a BP issue even for sophisticated consignors. The only thing that matters is net proceeds. If you sell for free on FB and net $10,000 but sell on Heritage and net $12,000 where should you sell?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true.
It's true there is no buyers fee for auctions on eBay. Your final bid (plus shipping if there is a shipping charge included in the auction terms) is what you owe. That's it- there are no additional fees.
I think his point is that there is a hidden "BP" in the cost. I kind of agree, it's "overhead" more than "BP" but every sales venue has something, including BST.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jdimmick said:
It may not affect high end one of a kind items, or a coin that 2 whales chase needing for registry or similar, but I can assure it will matter to the avg bidder who bids based on final number paid. But more importantly, it will affect the take home of consignors who sell thru their platform, again, unless some kind of special arrangement has been made on a consignment, which again, would most likely be a high value consignment or auction headline type material. I see it Helping GC more and more both from bidders and consignors.
It is definitely a move to the higher end, for the reason you state. But most auction houses are less interested in cheap stuff. It doesn't cost them much more to sell a $10,000 item than a $50 item. Even GC is around 20% on a $50 to $100 item when you include BP, SP? and the one-time set up fee. Over 30% of you count shipping. But people need to be compensated for their work.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I pulled an old Heritage invoice from 20 years ago just to check. The BP was 15%. At the time I asked a vest pocket dealer I know well what effect he thought that would have. Brian said, "All that matters is that Heritage keep bringing quality material to the market. As long as they do that little else will matter." I don't see any reason to argue with that today either. james
The angst, from the buyer side, of costs, fees, etc has always baffled me. It makes no difference. Determine what you are willing to pay and back out the cost/fees. If an individual is unable to do the basic math they have no business bidding to begin with.
Determining the best net on the sell side is a legitimate discussion.
Bottom line from what I see. Most buyers will adjust and lower their maximum bid. Most big consigners will get a small piece of the 2%. Heritage will grab more money which can’t be good for the hobby/industry. SB will probably increase their BP to 22%. GC should benefit especially if they don’t increase their fees. HA, SB will still be the best place to sell coins like an 1804 dollar.
@Morgan White said:
They send me catalogs all the time and I haven't bought anything in a couple of years. I've never used a catalog to buy anything anyway, they usually go straight in the trash.
I had all the auction houses ( now only 3) take me off their Mail list for catalogs several of years ago for the same reason. Of course you do not get a any cash credit for that
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
This might be another reason why I miss Legends Auctions. Before they closed the auction business, I recall they were at 17% fee, auctions were smaller - 250 - 400 lots, smaller bid increments (none of those one time use of a split bid on a lot), quick processing of the lots. and I always reached one of the key staff on the phone. Competition can work wonders.
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true.
It's true there is no buyers fee for auctions on eBay. Your final bid (plus shipping if there is a shipping charge included in the auction terms) is what you owe. That's it- there are no additional fees.
I think his point is that there is a hidden "BP" in the cost. I kind of agree, it's "overhead" more than "BP" but every sales venue has something, including BST.
How much "BP" can you hide in a 99c opening bid auction?
When buying and selling I use GC. Fees are reasonable. On purchases I receive the coin in less then a week. I sold a group of coins a few months ago.It took 5 weeks mailing, listing, selling, and getting paid. Love GC.
@nags said:
The angst, from the buyer side, of costs, fees, etc has always baffled me. It makes no difference. Determine what you are willing to pay and back out the cost/fees. If an individual is unable to do the basic math they have no business bidding to begin with.
Determining the best net on the sell side is a legitimate discussion.
Exactly. I always cringe at the lack of logic displayed in these threads.
It will be hard for me to choose HA to sell coins. I'll have to really feel that HA is the best place to get the highest bids and I think for most coins I deal with I'm better off consigning with dealers.
@pruebas said:
A suggestion: Maybe only charge the new BP to buyers who receive paper catalogs? This is a high expense for them.
Actually, it's not just US coins. World coins is going up starting 2026 too.
I told Heritage years ago that I did not want paper catalogs, but they keep sending them, not all of them, but enough to be expensive. I’d be very happy if they would stop sending catalogs all together and not raise the buyers fee, but it doesn’t work that way. I’ve told them that 25% is too high for political items, which forces me to buy elsewhere. They don’t listen to their customers.
I did too and now I don't receive any. You might need to check your settings.
@Coin Finder said:
Not sure of this is true, but they know their business and a rate increase was probably not done lightly. These are difficult times, seems like a lot of prices are going up.. Labor costs more.. They have a successful business model it seems. I suspect other will follow suit. I think if anything it will make a buyer look harder at a coin they want before bidding which is probably a good thing..
We don't know the costs (which one would assume are going up). On the revenue side, they are doing well according to their press releases.
Any rising costs should theoretically be offset by increases in the sale prices of what they are auctioning.
The real question we should be asking, what extra value are sellers going to get for an extra 2%?
I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true.
It's true there is no buyers fee for auctions on eBay. Your final bid (plus shipping if there is a shipping charge included in the auction terms) is what you owe. That's it- there are no additional fees.
I think his point is that there is a hidden "BP" in the cost. I kind of agree, it's "overhead" more than "BP" but every sales venue has something, including BST.
How much "BP" can you hide in a 99c opening bid auction?
Up to 100%. Lol
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
2. Consignors might realize more at Heritage than GC, just not bottom end consignors. Heritage uses the BP to incentivize preferred consignors. With a premium consignment, you might get 110% or more of the hammer price. GC can't offer that
3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000.
All of this is known. It's been known for a century. There's nothing being reinvented here.
" 3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000." Sorry, I'm not able to follow. Can you explain it.
Also, there can be a seller's commission as well as the buyer's commission.
@jmlanzaf said:
2. Consignors might realize more at Heritage than GC, just not bottom end consignors. Heritage uses the BP to incentivize preferred consignors. With a premium consignment, you might get 110% or more of the hammer price. GC can't offer that
3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000.
All of this is known. It's been known for a century. There's nothing being reinvented here.
" 3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000." Sorry, I'm not able to follow. Can you explain it.
Also, there can be a seller's commission as well as the buyer's commission.
At 22%, if you are getting 10% over hammer, you take home 88% (round numbers) of the total price. 88% of 10k is $8800. If you sell at GC with a 10% BP and 0% SP, you would take home 90% of the total price. 90% of $9000 is $8100.
In the end, you (should) care what you take home, not what the house gets.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
CNG charges 22.5-25% and has for some time now.
That didn't deter me when they had the coins that I wanted, although I usually buy ancients at HA.
And you can find some nice coins at good prices on EBay, although you have to wade through a lot of junk to get there.
Not a coin, but just purchased a lamp from Toomey and Co. BP was 27.5% and shipping for a lamp is very expensive due to size and fragility, I backed all that out from my bid max then added about 10% back because I wanted the lamp. I won, and am happy with my all in cost and it was in line with the estimate.
It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
If they have the coin I’m looking for in the grade and with the look I like then I’ll still bid in a Heritage auction with 22% buyers fee. They are not the cheapest but the coins I search for are not common either.
@pcgscacgold said:
The fee is part of what you are willing to pay. Doesn't really matter in the end. It does take away from the seller, unless they are big enough to get a cut of the BP.
I have seen this posted before, but it's not really true. If the buyer wants it they will bid more and fight over it regardless of the fees, over time they are willing to pay more and more even if they think they are not. Like saying you won't buy a fancy coffee because the price went up and next week you are buying three a day just like before the price increases.
No. It's definitely true. Some people are, perhaps, too ignorant to pay attention. But if i want to pay $100, I pay $100 whether there is 0% BP or 200%. In fact, I also subtract out the shipping.
The only people who should care are consignors.
I figure in the BP but not the shipping because I consider that to be a valid cost for any coin purchase. It costs me even more money than a $7 shipping fee to hop in a car and visit an LCS to buy coins.
The fees on ebay even without a store are significantly LOWER than every auction house, including GC. For coins under $1000 GC fees are over 20%.
How are GC fees over 20% for coins under $1000? As a buyer, I only pay 10% plus shipping. As a seller, I pay 5% plus a $5 listing fee for coins under $1000. Over $1000 and I pay no seller's fee.
@nags said:
The angst, from the buyer side, of costs, fees, etc has always baffled me. It makes no difference. Determine what you are willing to pay and back out the cost/fees. If an individual is unable to do the basic math they have no business bidding to begin with.
Determining the best net on the sell side is a legitimate discussion.
That's the thing though, no one lives forever, you eventually have to sell (ok, maybe leave them as heirlooms but probably not), and these fees are the cost of being in the hobby. 20% always felt like a hard max to me, probably because it ends in a zero but now for the "best" platform it goes up to 22, and so too the collecting scene will react. Look how "hot" this topic is.
The fees on ebay even without a store are significantly LOWER than every auction house, including GC. For coins under $1000 GC fees are over 20%.
How are GC fees over 20% for coins under $1000? As a buyer, I only pay 10% plus shipping. As a seller, I pay 5% plus a $5 listing fee for coins under $1000. Over $1000 and I pay no seller's fee.
I thought the seller's premium was 10%. If it's 5%, let's correct that to 15+%
Thanks
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
2. Consignors might realize more at Heritage than GC, just not bottom end consignors. Heritage uses the BP to incentivize preferred consignors. With a premium consignment, you might get 110% or more of the hammer price. GC can't offer that
3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000.
All of this is known. It's been known for a century. There's nothing being reinvented here.
" 3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000." Sorry, I'm not able to follow. Can you explain it.
Also, there can be a seller's commission as well as the buyer's commission.
That is in the calculation. If you get-10%, your seller's fee is negative 10%
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@TimNH said:
That's the thing though, no one lives forever, you eventually have to sell (ok, maybe leave them as heirlooms but probably not), and these fees are the cost of being in the hobby.
That cost is irrelevant to me. For financial planning purposes, my collection is worth $0 and I consider anything spent on it to be gone, the same way it would be if I spent the money on lift tickets or greens fees. Whatever proceeds happen to be generated by its liquidation will be considered "found" money.
I understand other people have a different approach, and that's okay. My preference is to not collect coins whose cost I cannot afford to absorb as a complete loss. This allows me to enjoy my collection without worrying about what I'll eventually be able to sell it for. It would take all the fun out of the hobby for me if I were to concern myself over what I'll be able to sell a coin I'm thinking about buying for before I even own it. I know there are people here who do think about that sort of thing but again, that's okay- go with whatever works for you.
As far as how this fits into the topic of auction house fees and how they might affect what I can get for my coins, when the time comes for me to sell, the fees will be what they will be and I won't be losing any sleep over it.
At 22%, if you are getting 10% over hammer, you take home 88% (round numbers) of the total price. 88% of 10k is $8800. If you sell at GC with a 10% BP and 0% SP, you would take home 90% of the total price. 90% of $9000 is $8100.
Based on your statement
Heritage - $10,000 hammer + 22% = $12,200 final Heritage selling price. $10,000 hammer x 10% = $1,000 over hammer. $10,000 + $1000 = $11,000.00 Seller receives from Heritage.
GC - $11,091 hammer + 10% = $12,200 final GC selling price. $11,091.00 Seller receives from GC
Your example also assumes Heritage will give back 10% from hammer and it also assumes that Heritage will not charge a sellers. commission
@pcgscacgold said:
The fee is part of what you are willing to pay. Doesn't really matter in the end. It does take away from the seller, unless they are big enough to get a cut of the BP.
I have seen this posted before, but it's not really true. If the buyer wants it they will bid more and fight over it regardless of the fees, over time they are willing to pay more and more even if they think they are not. Like saying you won't buy a fancy coffee because the price went up and next week you are buying three a day just like before the price increases.
No. It's definitely true. Some people are, perhaps, too ignorant to pay attention. But if i want to pay $100, I pay $100 whether there is 0% BP or 200%. In fact, I also subtract out the shipping.
The only people who should care are consignors.
It may be true for you and a few others but it's not true for everyone and it has nothing to do with ignorance either. How many times have you seen a member here post a newp and practically brag how buried they are but they "had to have it". That is not a dig at anyone but without a doubt there are people that will get into bidding wars because they must have it and the BP simply is not a concern. Granted this tends to be with really difficult to find material, but surely you can recall seeing posts like that for very common coins because of the color.
And if what you say is true and anyone with a brain cell is already backing out the BP now then what will another 2% matter anyway. If everyone is already doing it then this will not make any difference to the consignor since consignors have been losing all along. Which brings up an interesting question, if the consignors are and have been losing due to buyers backing out BP for years, why does anyone sell with Heritage? How many Heritage sellers do you know that are unhappy with the auction results because of buyers subtracting the BP when bidding?
Just out of curiosity how many top shelf coins or those with CAC beans are you winning with bids where you backed out the BP?
What you state is usually true for me due to the coins I buy. With the coins I've been buying for my primary collection in the past 15 years, it's play or get "locked out" because the chances of another decent coin showing up a second time in any reasonable timeframe are low or very low. Most of the coins I own in this series are dreck when it shows up. Many of the coins I own I've either seen one more or none close to comparable.
@numis1652 said:
One of their larger expenses are their catalogues, assembling and shipping, even though
its “ in house “. Heritage prints, assembles and ships their own catalogues.
Perhaps 7-8 yrs ago, a StacksBowers employee told me that each major catalogue they ship out costs them $35. Certainly it is higher now .
I think it would financially behoove Heritage to survey their clientele to winnow out those preferring not to receive a mailed “ hard copy “ catalogue and rely on the online listings. My guess , based on what I read above, is 20%, 1 in 5, would pass on receiving Heritage’s massive “phone book” catalogues.
Not me though. I actually carefully peruse each catalogue to find those unusually placed rare
pieces which would be missed going thru an online listing. Plus I can lay aside a catalogue and continue the perusal at my convenience.
My opinion only is that most catalogues aren't worth printing because the coins being sold are sold often enough. Their on-line archive is a far better source.
I do find old catalogs to be worth keeping where an archive is not available or where an image is not included.
@jdimmick said:
It may not affect high end one of a kind items, or a coin that 2 whales chase needing for registry or similar, but I can assure it will matter to the avg bidder who bids based on final number paid. But more importantly, it will affect the take home of consignors who sell thru their platform, again, unless some kind of special arrangement has been made on a consignment, which again, would most likely be a high value consignment or auction headline type material. I see it Helping GC more and more both from bidders and consignors.
It is definitely a move to the higher end, for the reason you state. But most auction houses are less interested in cheap stuff. It doesn't cost them much more to sell a $10,000 item than a $50 item. Even GC is around 20% on a $50 to $100 item when you include BP, SP? and the one-time set up fee. Over 30% of you count shipping. But people need to be compensated for their work.
Your explanation is one reason I buy far fewer of the lower/lowest priced coins versus many years ago, not that any I buy are high priced by current standards. Still, there is too much slippage in it.
Comments
Not sure what there is to laugh about. I agree with you. I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true. That's all. I hope you got a good knee slapper of a laugh at what I said. I try to be funny sometimes but in this case I was just stating dry facts. Whatever.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
It may not affect high end one of a kind items, or a coin that 2 whales chase needing for registry or similar, but I can assure it will matter to the avg bidder who bids based on final number paid. But more importantly, it will affect the take home of consignors who sell thru their platform, again, unless some kind of special arrangement has been made on a consignment, which again, would most likely be a high value consignment or auction headline type material. I see it Helping GC more and more both from bidders and consignors.
" 3. 88% of $10k on a -10% consignment is more than 90% of $9000." Sorry, I'm not able to follow. Can you explain it.
Also, there can be a seller's commission as well as the buyer's commission.
Because at some point you're gonna want to sell.
I was really replying to MasonG who said there is no BP on eBay and I was merely pointing out that it's not true.
It's true there is no buyers fee for auctions on eBay. Your final bid (plus shipping if there is a shipping charge included in the auction terms) is what you owe. That's it- there are no additional fees.
Just bought a few dozen low priced modern coins on ebay, 40 to be exact, combined shipping, no tax, no fees, no extra charge for CCs. I wouldn't be able to buy a $10-$40 coins on Heritage without getting stuck with a $29 minimum BP on each coin.
For the better coins ( not moderns) I'll stay with GC with there 10% BP and 12.5% using a CC
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
GC 10% and HA 20% were good sweet spots. Going to 22% could hurt HA consigners causing them to cut back a bit.
I have previously slowed down my HA purchases.
tariffs
It matters if your underbidder is not as disciplined or as smart as you are.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Heritage is definitely evil. All of you should absolutely stop bidding in their auctions in protest of the fees so I will win more.
I had an important consignment with Heritage this past summer. It was challenging in that there was a lot of historical information that needed to be condensed and included in the auction description. Heritage was excellent in working with me on it.
That said, I do not like the 22% rate, AT ALL.
.
GC is 10% or 12.5% depending on cash/e-check/wire or credit card.
One would think that competition would restrain the BP, but Heritage dominates the market for truly high-end rarities. The competitors are barely trying to keep up.
Heritage
Stacks
Great Collections
Bourse dealers
Post-Covid Cultural Change
Conclusion
Most of the money is in higher end items, and Heritage has an increasingly large advantage in whale fight territory.
Trends favor digital sophistication and consolidated bidding platforms. Other players could capitalize but so far have shown little inclination to do so.
That is actually NOT what the person i was responding to was saying. He was talking about eBay.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The fees on ebay even without a store are significantly LOWER than every auction house, including GC. For coins under $1000 GC fees are over 15%. (Corrected)
So, no, I reject your "correction". They remain the best bargain in retail.
If you read carefully, I said "ALL THE PEOPLE I KNOW" (emphasis added) not everyone bidding. I've already acknowledged that there are some ignorant or unsophisticated bidders.
I'm not sure what the fact that, little old me with my limited resources, doesn't win all of the auctions I bid on means. Thank God I don't, I'd be in collections. But, we can be fairly certain that it is USUALLY not ignoring the BP by most bidders, otherwise they'd be $29 higher than me, not $5.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@hedgefundtradingdesk
Snipers love GC due to the hard stop. It adds that gambling aspect and that appears to be a bigger and bigger part of the hobby. I don't think a hard stop is best for a seller though.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
The biggest auction house in the sector knows less about their own business than you do.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I had a guy complain about shipping the other day. It was $1.99 comic with $5 shipping. [West coast postage is over $5, east coast shipping is $4.60.] I told him my net on a single comic is only 60 cents. I offered to send it to him for free if he shipped a SASE with whatever packaging he wanted. Oddly
he didn't take me up on it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Sorry, perhaps laughing was excessive. I want really disagreeing. It just struck me as funny that anyone needs to explain to people on this thread (not you) that everything you buy has a built in "BP". I don't know what they think the gross margins are at Walmart, but they are over 20%. People just don't complain when they don't see it spelled out.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Partly, it's reputation and customer base. But, as I mentioned earlier, they use BP to incentivize consignors. Even little old me had occasionally gotten 5% over hammer. Actual whales are getting 10+% over hammer.
It's really not a BP issue even for sophisticated consignors. The only thing that matters is net proceeds. If you sell for free on FB and net $10,000 but sell on Heritage and net $12,000 where should you sell?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I think his point is that there is a hidden "BP" in the cost. I kind of agree, it's "overhead" more than "BP" but every sales venue has something, including BST.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
It is definitely a move to the higher end, for the reason you state. But most auction houses are less interested in cheap stuff. It doesn't cost them much more to sell a $10,000 item than a $50 item. Even GC is around 20% on a $50 to $100 item when you include BP, SP? and the one-time set up fee. Over 30% of you count shipping. But people need to be compensated for their work.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I pulled an old Heritage invoice from 20 years ago just to check. The BP was 15%. At the time I asked a vest pocket dealer I know well what effect he thought that would have. Brian said, "All that matters is that Heritage keep bringing quality material to the market. As long as they do that little else will matter." I don't see any reason to argue with that today either. james
Conclusion: Copy and pasting long strings of text from AI to post here is a terrible way to try to have a conversation or make a point.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
The angst, from the buyer side, of costs, fees, etc has always baffled me. It makes no difference. Determine what you are willing to pay and back out the cost/fees. If an individual is unable to do the basic math they have no business bidding to begin with.
Determining the best net on the sell side is a legitimate discussion.
Bottom line from what I see. Most buyers will adjust and lower their maximum bid. Most big consigners will get a small piece of the 2%. Heritage will grab more money which can’t be good for the hobby/industry. SB will probably increase their BP to 22%. GC should benefit especially if they don’t increase their fees. HA, SB will still be the best place to sell coins like an 1804 dollar.
I had all the auction houses ( now only 3) take me off their Mail list for catalogs several of years ago for the same reason. Of course you do not get a any cash credit for that
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
This might be another reason why I miss Legends Auctions. Before they closed the auction business, I recall they were at 17% fee, auctions were smaller - 250 - 400 lots, smaller bid increments (none of those one time use of a split bid on a lot), quick processing of the lots. and I always reached one of the key staff on the phone. Competition can work wonders.
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
How much "BP" can you hide in a 99c opening bid auction?
When buying and selling I use GC. Fees are reasonable. On purchases I receive the coin in less then a week. I sold a group of coins a few months ago.It took 5 weeks mailing, listing, selling, and getting paid. Love GC.
Exactly. I always cringe at the lack of logic displayed in these threads.
Smitten with DBLCs.
It will be hard for me to choose HA to sell coins. I'll have to really feel that HA is the best place to get the highest bids and I think for most coins I deal with I'm better off consigning with dealers.
I did too and now I don't receive any. You might need to check your settings.
Any rising costs should theoretically be offset by increases in the sale prices of what they are auctioning.
The real question we should be asking, what extra value are sellers going to get for an extra 2%?
Up to 100%. Lol
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
At 22%, if you are getting 10% over hammer, you take home 88% (round numbers) of the total price. 88% of 10k is $8800. If you sell at GC with a 10% BP and 0% SP, you would take home 90% of the total price. 90% of $9000 is $8100.
In the end, you (should) care what you take home, not what the house gets.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
CNG charges 22.5-25% and has for some time now.
That didn't deter me when they had the coins that I wanted, although I usually buy ancients at HA.
And you can find some nice coins at good prices on EBay, although you have to wade through a lot of junk to get there.
Not a coin, but just purchased a lamp from Toomey and Co. BP was 27.5% and shipping for a lamp is very expensive due to size and fragility, I backed all that out from my bid max then added about 10% back because I wanted the lamp. I won, and am happy with my all in cost and it was in line with the estimate.
If they have the coin I’m looking for in the grade and with the look I like then I’ll still bid in a Heritage auction with 22% buyers fee. They are not the cheapest but the coins I search for are not common either.
I figure in the BP but not the shipping because I consider that to be a valid cost for any coin purchase. It costs me even more money than a $7 shipping fee to hop in a car and visit an LCS to buy coins.
How are GC fees over 20% for coins under $1000? As a buyer, I only pay 10% plus shipping. As a seller, I pay 5% plus a $5 listing fee for coins under $1000. Over $1000 and I pay no seller's fee.
That's the thing though, no one lives forever, you eventually have to sell (ok, maybe leave them as heirlooms but probably not), and these fees are the cost of being in the hobby. 20% always felt like a hard max to me, probably because it ends in a zero but now for the "best" platform it goes up to 22, and so too the collecting scene will react. Look how "hot" this topic is.
I thought the seller's premium was 10%. If it's 5%, let's correct that to 15+%
Thanks
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
So what? You're still in it at $100 no matter how you got there. We've acknowledged that the seller's calculations are more complicated.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That is in the calculation. If you get-10%, your seller's fee is negative 10%
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That cost is irrelevant to me. For financial planning purposes, my collection is worth $0 and I consider anything spent on it to be gone, the same way it would be if I spent the money on lift tickets or greens fees. Whatever proceeds happen to be generated by its liquidation will be considered "found" money.
I understand other people have a different approach, and that's okay. My preference is to not collect coins whose cost I cannot afford to absorb as a complete loss. This allows me to enjoy my collection without worrying about what I'll eventually be able to sell it for. It would take all the fun out of the hobby for me if I were to concern myself over what I'll be able to sell a coin I'm thinking about buying for before I even own it. I know there are people here who do think about that sort of thing but again, that's okay- go with whatever works for you.
As far as how this fits into the topic of auction house fees and how they might affect what I can get for my coins, when the time comes for me to sell, the fees will be what they will be and I won't be losing any sleep over it.
Based on your statement
Heritage - $10,000 hammer + 22% = $12,200 final Heritage selling price. $10,000 hammer x 10% = $1,000 over hammer. $10,000 + $1000 = $11,000.00 Seller receives from Heritage.
GC - $11,091 hammer + 10% = $12,200 final GC selling price. $11,091.00 Seller receives from GC
Your example also assumes Heritage will give back 10% from hammer and it also assumes that Heritage will not charge a sellers. commission
I don’t think it’s AI.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
What you state is usually true for me due to the coins I buy. With the coins I've been buying for my primary collection in the past 15 years, it's play or get "locked out" because the chances of another decent coin showing up a second time in any reasonable timeframe are low or very low. Most of the coins I own in this series are dreck when it shows up. Many of the coins I own I've either seen one more or none close to comparable.
My opinion only is that most catalogues aren't worth printing because the coins being sold are sold often enough. Their on-line archive is a far better source.
I do find old catalogs to be worth keeping where an archive is not available or where an image is not included.
Your explanation is one reason I buy far fewer of the lower/lowest priced coins versus many years ago, not that any I buy are high priced by current standards. Still, there is too much slippage in it.