Nothing wrong with anybody looking for deals……One point that I haven’t seen brought up here yet is the simple aspect of quality.
When I see the “data” guys marching around the bourse with their iPads trying to comp every coin in the room, I rarely get the impression that they’re hunting nice coins. Just low prices.
I’m not a coin dealer, but I am an entrepreneur and a small businessman. My entire model is simply offering a better, more comprehensive service than my competitors. Because my service is better, I charge more than they do.
Many times, I’ve “lost” a potential new client immediately after quoting my rate. That’s OK. My retention rate is very high and “word of mouth” has been better than just about any advertising I could pay for.
If you want quality, you have to pay for quality or just hope to get really lucky. I think that’s true in just about anything in the Western world, and it certainly is true for numismatics.
Does that mean you need to be a millionaire to have a great coin collection? Certainly not. It’s all relative. If I’m a Roosevelt dime Dansco collector (like my daughter), I can “fill the hole” at melt with anything out of a dealers’ 90% box, or I can cough up $20-$30 for a nicely toned raw UNC. If I want the UNC, though, I shouldn’t expect the seller of the coin to give me the same price as the one sitting in the 90% box.
I recently witnessed a “negotiation” involving a very PQ, beautifully toned better date WLH in a 58 holder. The seller was asking a high, but not stratospheric price. iPad guy came up next to me, scouted the coin, then pulled up eBay comps for that particular date and showed the seller a bunch of dipped out, blast white examples in 58 holders that have right fully sold for way less. When the dealer wouldn’t budge, iPad guy calls him a “crook” and storms off. I found it to be pretty jaw dropping tbh.
This was obviously just one instance. To me, however, a lot of the ipad hagglers seem to view every PCGS MS 64 as the same thing.
It’s definitely people coming over from the sports card world imho. Glad to have them as I’m one of them too. But it’s easy to spot someone who loves and appreciates coins vs someone who loves and appreciates trying to flip stuff. I don’t have any issue with the flippers………just know what the heck you’re trying to flip.
I also hate when people tell me they are a military veteran as part of the negotiation. Not relevant
They are just used to being asked at Lowes when making a purchase.
It's probably because I wear a Retired Air Force MSgt hat and wear an Air Force sweatshirt, but that might not be a total give away, and I'll always ask "can I get a military discount" (which doesn't work very well on the local Air Force base).
@MEJ7070 said:
Nothing wrong with anybody looking for deals……One point that I haven’t seen brought up here yet is the simple aspect of quality.
When I see the “data” guys marching around the bourse with their iPads trying to comp every coin in the room, I rarely get the impression that they’re hunting nice coins. Just low prices.
I’m not a coin dealer, but I am an entrepreneur and a small businessman. My entire model is simply offering a better, more comprehensive service than my competitors. Because my service is better, I charge more than they do.
Many times, I’ve “lost” a potential new client immediately after quoting my rate. That’s OK. My retention rate is very high and “word of mouth” has been better than just about any advertising I could pay for.
If you want quality, you have to pay for quality or just hope to get really lucky. I think that’s true in just about anything in the Western world, and it certainly is true for numismatics.
Does that mean you need to be a millionaire to have a great coin collection? Certainly not. It’s all relative. If I’m a Roosevelt dime Dansco collector (like my daughter), I can “fill the hole” at melt with anything out of a dealers’ 90% box, or I can cough up $20-$30 for a nicely toned raw UNC. If I want the UNC, though, I shouldn’t expect the seller of the coin to give me the same price as the one sitting in the 90% box.
I recently witnessed a “negotiation” involving a very PQ, beautifully toned better date WLH in a 58 holder. The seller was asking a high, but not stratospheric price. iPad guy came up next to me, scouted the coin, then pulled up eBay comps for that particular date and showed the seller a bunch of dipped out, blast white examples in 58 holders that have right fully sold for way less. When the dealer wouldn’t budge, iPad guy calls him a “crook” and storms off. I found it to be pretty jaw dropping tbh.
This was obviously just one instance. To me, however, a lot of the ipad hagglers seem to view every PCGS MS 64 as the same thing.
It’s definitely people coming over from the sports card world imho. Glad to have them as I’m one of them too. But it’s easy to spot someone who loves and appreciates coins vs someone who loves and appreciates trying to flip stuff. I don’t have any issue with the flippers………just know what the heck you’re trying to flip.
It's not a "deal" just because you haggle me down 10%. That's especially true if I marked it up 15% expecting you to haggle.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
There was one time that I didn’t haggle, at all. Saw something very rare that I really needed on a Saturday afternoon. I didn’t want to to lose it by waiting for an email or text response or waiting to call on the phone Monday morning. I just clicked ‘Buy it now’. It wasn’t worth the risk to lose a once in a lifetime purchase. I know the OP is talking about Coin shows, but people haggle online, too.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My biggest problem in negotiating is the comp crap by both the dealers your offering a coin too, and the vest pocketers trying to buy from you when you have an exceptional coin. Those folks buy by the numbers, wouldnt recognize a great coin if it bit em in the behind. Sometimes you (both ways) need to step up in those cases.
I was in a coin shop many years ago in Laughlin Nevada.
There was a tray of Nice looking Mercury Dimes (probably 40/50 dimes)
I asked How Much?
Owner said $1.50 each / I offered $1.20 each for all of them
The Owner said he would take that offer as he had more in the back.
He bought them out, another 500 ( the condition was just a nice)
So I bought them as well
@jdimmick said:
My biggest problem in negotiating is the comp crap by both the dealers your offering a coin too, and the vest pocketers trying to buy from you when you have an exceptional coin. Those folks buy by the numbers, wouldnt recognize a great coin if it bit em in the behind. Sometimes you (both ways) need to step up in those cases.
I agree, but it depends on how much the step up price is. A dealer who sets up at our local show has a good eye and generally prices around Bid, and I’ve done a fair amount of business with him over the years. He once had a Bust quarter with beautiful concentric rim toning on both sides. He (almost apologetically) wanted full GS XF Ask for it. I didn’t hesitate or quibble, and started writing the check immediately. I’m sure others had seen it and passed because it was “too much”….
But at FUN, another dealer friend showed me a similarly toned A&R seated quarter. A coin I liked a lot, but he was asking >2x retail price guide. He may eventually get it, but to me we were so far apart I didn’t even want to negotiate it.
You have to be in control and not let them talk you down. Or quote a high enough price giving them 10 pct off does not put that much of a dent in the deal. The people who try talk one down IMO probably for most part have no concept of pricing. So they try low ball you down. They are not some kind of all knowing bourse room god lol.
I had a bunch of raw CSA notes I bought few years ago from dealer setup next to me and recently got them graded - banked really big margin on it. One dealer guy setup up behind me tried rip me told him no. Dealer across aisle gave me what I wanted many very low pop. You have to be in control not them. What wb really sad is sell stuff low margin but still be in the red from opex.
Of course there is stuff that is low margin (generic gold) no matter what and will need quick turnover or put it back in SDB until it glides higher.
This one guy setup at show’s prices everything about 10-15 pct over CPG MV or what he would take and lets them talk him down to what he will take. Calls it haggler rock n roll.
@sanddollar said:
It must be an amazing feeling believing any room you walk into, you're the smartest person present.
Some people also feel the same way when they enter a coin forum.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Morgan13 said:
I know dealers have overhead. I believe many dealers do it on the side. Not all but many. I think it's a tough >business to make money in. Considering all the time and effort used to maintain an inventory.
Mark-ups and spreads were wider and dealer profits (even those with a B&M overhead) much bigger I would venture decades ago before the Internet and even before the TPGs. I would guess from what I have read the 1960's and 1970's were great times to be a dealer.
I do try to haggle as a buyer, in a tentative, very polite way, but back off if I get an unfriendly vibe in response.
I figure it doesn't hurt to ask. Generally, I'll just ask, "is there any wiggle room at all on this?" And more often than not, they'll knock a few bucks off. Every little bit helps. Sometimes they'll politely stand firm, and that's OK.
Being tactful is key. Insult the dealer, and you'll get nowhere fast.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
I don’t think one should necessarily assume that the dealer is the more knowledgeable party when it comes to numismatics. All you need in my area is to fork over a table fee and now you’re a coin “dealer”.
Recently I came across a really nice coin in an NGC holder at a local show. Common date but exceptional appeal. Dealer had it marked up well beyond what the date/grade usually go for, but it was an exceptional coin. I get it. This guy knows what he has and appreciates quality.
I was interested in the coin as a type set upgrade. So when he quoted the fat price, I pulled out my own PC64/CAC example of one of the better dates in the series. Let’s discuss a deal here and how we can make this work…….
Guy pulls out sheet, looks at bid, and offers me 75% of it. So he wants 25% over ask for his non CACd NGC common date, which I get because it’s nice…….but he’s offering $300 for my PC/CACd better date in 64 (also very nice fwiw).
“I don’t believe in stickers.” Cool.
I quickly bit my lip and peeled off the $600 for his coin.
Cracked it, crossed it, and it’s now a PC66 top pop plate coin that JA is evaluating as we speak. Whether it beans or not it’s likely a $1000 coin 8 days a week.
Before I retired I was inside/outside sales. I had a customer that always asked for 5% off. I always added 10% to his quote, gave him his 5% and everyone was happy!
I ask to see the coin and if I like it, I simply say can you do any better than this?. They do and if I really like the coin, it goes home with me. A good transaction for both of us.
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
If a coin is not priced, I will ask "how much?" or "what are you asking?" and might try to negotiate further if the price is a little high.
If a coin is priced, I might ask "do you have any room?" or "best price?" and would not negotiate further after that point.
I don't think I've ever offended anyone doing this. Most dealers have pretty thick skin from years of dealing with the public, and I try not to be a difficult customer.
What you do is if a coin is a barely made it "c" coin, mark it as "looks" a+++, next higher grade or even two grades higher. Do as the Kleinman's used to do. And if on ebay too, hype it high: "Sacrifice!!!" "PQ+++" If AU, mark "Monster Slider!" If it has a little PL characteristic, mark "PL or DMPL Monster Mirrors!" If it has a little color highlight that, "Rainbow Toned!" And liberally use "Rare!" especially if it has a sticker or has any unique features, highlight them. (Tongue in cheek).
Personally, I don't do that as hype has diminishing returns.
I can’t believe how many people don’t do their homework. A lot of dealers purchase material directly from the major auction companies and then turn around and mark it up $1000, $2000 or more and put it on their website. I see it all the time. You don’t wanna pay that much over fair market value or be the end user, in that scenario. Unless it’s something extremely scarce that you just have to have. Even then, try to cut out the middleman by doing your research and by being aware of upcoming Auctions and bidding yourself. Either that or buy it from one of the many dealers who pay 30% back of bid, when they buy from the public. Then they can still make their margin and you can buy it for a fair price. Be very, very careful. JMHO.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
I can’t believe how many people don’t do their homework. A lot of dealers purchase material directly from the major auction companies and then turn around and mark it up $1000, $2000 or more and put it on their website. I see it all the time. You don’t wanna pay that much over fair market value or be the end user, in that scenario. Unless it’s something extremely scarce that you just have to have. Even then, try to cut out the middleman by doing your research and by being aware of upcoming Auctions and bidding yourself. Either that or buy it from one of the many dealers who pay 30% back of bid, when they buy from the public. Then they can still make their margin and you can buy it for a fair price. Be very, very careful. JMHO.
Do you have an example of one of these bankrupt companies that you're talking about?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Walkerfan said:
A lot of dealers purchase material directly from the major auction companies and then turn around and mark it up $1000, $2000 or more and put it on their website. You don’t wanna pay that much over fair market value or be the end user, in that scenario.
Dealers don't buy inventory at retail in order to put it on their websites. Just because something sold at auction for $XXX doesn't mean $XXX is the retail value. It could be, but it also could be more than or less than retail. Successful dealers know their markets, if a dealer is the buyer in an auction, my money would be "less than retail".
@Walkerfan said:
A lot of dealers purchase material directly from the major auction companies and then turn around and mark it up $1000, $2000 or more and put it on their website. You don’t wanna pay that much over fair market value or be the end user, in that scenario.
Dealers don't buy inventory at retail in order to put it on their websites. Just because something sold at auction for $XXX doesn't mean $XXX is the retail value. It could be, but it also could be more than or less than retail. Successful dealers know their markets, if a dealer is the buyer in an auction, my money would be "less than retail".
You are 100% correct and this is true in one of the examples that I’m thinking of. But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants. I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices. Retail price guides are accurate, sometimes, but other times they are overstated.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
@jmlanzaf said:
Do you have an example of one of these bankrupt companies that you're talking about?
Just do a little research and you’ll find many of them. What do you mean by bankrupt? With margins like that, they are far rom bankrupt.
Exactly my point. They know what they are doing.
I buy things at auction all the time and resell them for more. NOT because my customers don't know value or I have exorbitant mark-ups. It's because I knew what the retail value was and bought it right.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
Three coins at an auction:
1) No collector interest, it gets bought by a dealer for his website.
2) Good collector activity, it sells to one of them.
3) Several bidders perceive upgrade potential and bid the coin up.
Which one(s) are "today's price"?
edited to add... I'll tell you what I think. Without knowing who bought the coin and why, it is difficult to tell how the final bid relates to the "actual market price". YMMV, of course.
@Walkerfan said:
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
Three coins at an auction:
1) No collector interest, it gets bought by a dealer for his website.
2) Good collector activity, it sells to one of them.
3) Several bidders perceive upgrade potential and bid the coin up.
Which one(s) are "today's price"?
All three, because they are all susceptible to fluctuations based on value and demand.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
It isn't really "today's price", it's today's price in that auction with whomever was participating.
I've bought coins from a major Heritage auction and sold them for 20% more with a week or two on ebay. Why? The buyer's weren't participating in the auction.
We've also seen examples of coins selling for way over similar comps in auctions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
I've bought coins from a major Heritage auction and sold them for 20% more with a week or two on ebay. Why? The buyer's weren't participating in the auction.
We've also seen examples of coins selling for way over similar comps in auctions.
Coins 1) and 3) in my post above. If both of those are examples of "today's price", what useful information does "today's price" provide?
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
It isn't really "today's price", it's today's price in that auction with whomever was participating.
I've bought coins from a major Heritage auction and sold them for 20% more with a week or two on ebay. Why? The buyer's weren't participating in the auction.
We've also seen examples of coins selling for way over similar comps in auctions.
Which brings us back to my original point. In an auction, you have a chance at getting a good price, but once it becomes the property of a retailer you’re going to pay his high price, regardless.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
It isn't really "today's price", it's today's price in that auction with whomever was participating.
I've bought coins from a major Heritage auction and sold them for 20% more with a week or two on ebay. Why? The buyer's weren't participating in the auction.
We've also seen examples of coins selling for way over similar comps in auctions.
Which brings us back to my original point. In an auction, you have a chance at getting a good price, but once it becomes the property of a retailer you’re going to pay his high price, regardless.
Yes and no. You're ignoring the other half of what i said. You also auction prices much higher than comps. Why? Because 2 people were desperate to get it. In those cases, the same coin might week be cheaper from a dealer.
At an auction, you have a chance to get a good price and a chance to overpay... just like from a dealer.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
It isn't really "today's price", it's today's price in that auction with whomever was participating.
I've bought coins from a major Heritage auction and sold them for 20% more with a week or two on ebay. Why? The buyer's weren't participating in the auction.
We've also seen examples of coins selling for way over similar comps in auctions.
Which brings us back to my original point. In an auction, you have a chance at getting a good price, but once it becomes the property of a retailer you’re going to pay his high price, regardless.
Yes and no. You're ignoring the other half of what i said. You also auction prices much higher than comps. Why? Because 2 people were desperate to get it. In those cases, the same coin might week be cheaper from a dealer.
At an auction, you have a chance to get a good price and a chance to overpay... just like from a dealer.
I set my limit beforehand. So, if two people wanna have a bidding war, then I back off. You have a 50-50 shot of getting a good price at auction. You have a 0% chance of doing so from a dealer who sells at retail or beyond.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants.
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
@Walkerfan said:
I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
It isn't really "today's price", it's today's price in that auction with whomever was participating.
I've bought coins from a major Heritage auction and sold them for 20% more with a week or two on ebay. Why? The buyer's weren't participating in the auction.
We've also seen examples of coins selling for way over similar comps in auctions.
Which brings us back to my original point. In an auction, you have a chance at getting a good price, but once it becomes the property of a retailer you’re going to pay his high price, regardless.
Yes and no. You're ignoring the other half of what i said. You also auction prices much higher than comps. Why? Because 2 people were desperate to get it. In those cases, the same coin might week be cheaper from a dealer.
At an auction, you have a chance to get a good price and a chance to overpay... just like from a dealer.
I set my limit beforehand. So, if two people wanna have a bidding war, then I back off. You have a 50-50 shot of getting a good price at auction. You have a 0% chance of doing so from a dealer who sells at retail or beyond.
And yet a huge number of people on this site keep telling people to consign to GC to get the best return. Both things can't be true.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
1) No collector interest, it gets bought by a dealer for his website.
2) Good collector activity, it sells to one of them.
3) Several bidders perceive upgrade potential (or just want it) and bid the coin up.
@DisneyFan said:
The worse outcome is #1 which isn't bad.
If you're interested in determining a realistic retail price from a collector's perspective, it seems to me that there are two poor options and one good one. If you value a coin based on the following auction outcomes...
1) No collector interest, it gets bought by a dealer for his website.
2) Good collector activity, it sells to one of them.
3) Several bidders perceive upgrade potential (or just want it) and bid the coin up.
the results are likely to be...
1) You'll be regularly outbid when other collectors are participating in the next auction and reduced to starting threads here about how dealers overprice their coins and other collectors overpay. (Poor)
2) You'll have a decent idea of a reasonable cost for the coin. (Good)
3) You'll get an inflated sense of the coin's value and be at risk of paying more than you need to for the coin. (Poor)
As always, YMMV. Everybody is free to proceed as they wish.
@Walkerfan said:
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
Three coins at an auction:
1) No collector interest, it gets bought by a dealer for his website.
2) Good collector activity, it sells to one of them.
3) Several bidders perceive upgrade potential and bid the coin up.
Which one(s) are "today's price"?
edited to add... I'll tell you what I think. Without knowing who bought the coin and why, it is difficult to tell how the final bid relates to the "actual market price". YMMV, of course.
Comments
I usually offer more just to make sure I get it.
Nothing wrong with anybody looking for deals……One point that I haven’t seen brought up here yet is the simple aspect of quality.
When I see the “data” guys marching around the bourse with their iPads trying to comp every coin in the room, I rarely get the impression that they’re hunting nice coins. Just low prices.
I’m not a coin dealer, but I am an entrepreneur and a small businessman. My entire model is simply offering a better, more comprehensive service than my competitors. Because my service is better, I charge more than they do.
Many times, I’ve “lost” a potential new client immediately after quoting my rate. That’s OK. My retention rate is very high and “word of mouth” has been better than just about any advertising I could pay for.
If you want quality, you have to pay for quality or just hope to get really lucky. I think that’s true in just about anything in the Western world, and it certainly is true for numismatics.
Does that mean you need to be a millionaire to have a great coin collection? Certainly not. It’s all relative. If I’m a Roosevelt dime Dansco collector (like my daughter), I can “fill the hole” at melt with anything out of a dealers’ 90% box, or I can cough up $20-$30 for a nicely toned raw UNC. If I want the UNC, though, I shouldn’t expect the seller of the coin to give me the same price as the one sitting in the 90% box.
I recently witnessed a “negotiation” involving a very PQ, beautifully toned better date WLH in a 58 holder. The seller was asking a high, but not stratospheric price. iPad guy came up next to me, scouted the coin, then pulled up eBay comps for that particular date and showed the seller a bunch of dipped out, blast white examples in 58 holders that have right fully sold for way less. When the dealer wouldn’t budge, iPad guy calls him a “crook” and storms off. I found it to be pretty jaw dropping tbh.
This was obviously just one instance. To me, however, a lot of the ipad hagglers seem to view every PCGS MS 64 as the same thing.
It’s definitely people coming over from the sports card world imho. Glad to have them as I’m one of them too. But it’s easy to spot someone who loves and appreciates coins vs someone who loves and appreciates trying to flip stuff. I don’t have any issue with the flippers………just know what the heck you’re trying to flip.
It's probably because I wear a Retired Air Force MSgt hat and wear an Air Force sweatshirt, but that might not be a total give away, and I'll always ask "can I get a military discount" (which doesn't work very well on the local Air Force base).
It's not a "deal" just because you haggle me down 10%. That's especially true if I marked it up 15% expecting you to haggle.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
There was one time that I didn’t haggle, at all. Saw something very rare that I really needed on a Saturday afternoon. I didn’t want to to lose it by waiting for an email or text response or waiting to call on the phone Monday morning. I just clicked ‘Buy it now’. It wasn’t worth the risk to lose a once in a lifetime purchase. I know the OP is talking about Coin shows, but people haggle online, too.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
My biggest problem in negotiating is the comp crap by both the dealers your offering a coin too, and the vest pocketers trying to buy from you when you have an exceptional coin. Those folks buy by the numbers, wouldnt recognize a great coin if it bit em in the behind. Sometimes you (both ways) need to step up in those cases.
Where is that fine line from Negotiating/Haggling
I was in a coin shop many years ago in Laughlin Nevada.
There was a tray of Nice looking Mercury Dimes (probably 40/50 dimes)
I asked How Much?
Owner said $1.50 each / I offered $1.20 each for all of them
The Owner said he would take that offer as he had more in the back.
He bought them out, another 500 ( the condition was just a nice)
So I bought them as well
It's not a "deal" just because you haggle me down 10%. That's especially true if I marked it up 15% expecting you to haggle.
It's a deal if the buyer thinks they got a deal.
I agree, but it depends on how much the step up price is. A dealer who sets up at our local show has a good eye and generally prices around Bid, and I’ve done a fair amount of business with him over the years. He once had a Bust quarter with beautiful concentric rim toning on both sides. He (almost apologetically) wanted full GS XF Ask for it. I didn’t hesitate or quibble, and started writing the check immediately. I’m sure others had seen it and passed because it was “too much”….
But at FUN, another dealer friend showed me a similarly toned A&R seated quarter. A coin I liked a lot, but he was asking >2x retail price guide. He may eventually get it, but to me we were so far apart I didn’t even want to negotiate it.
Any many, many other retail establishments. I see no harm in asking that question.
Guy I know is a police officer…veterans, first responders and teachers all get ‘preferred treatment’ on pretty much any minor traffic offense.
Even if they paid 2x what the same coin across town?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You have to be in control and not let them talk you down. Or quote a high enough price giving them 10 pct off does not put that much of a dent in the deal. The people who try talk one down IMO probably for most part have no concept of pricing. So they try low ball you down. They are not some kind of all knowing bourse room god lol.
I had a bunch of raw CSA notes I bought few years ago from dealer setup next to me and recently got them graded - banked really big margin on it. One dealer guy setup up behind me tried rip me told him no. Dealer across aisle gave me what I wanted many very low pop. You have to be in control not them. What wb really sad is sell stuff low margin but still be in the red from opex.
Of course there is stuff that is low margin (generic gold) no matter what and will need quick turnover or put it back in SDB until it glides higher.
This one guy setup at show’s prices everything about 10-15 pct over CPG MV or what he would take and lets them talk him down to what he will take. Calls it haggler rock n roll.
If know the haggler will quote some higher prices let him talk me down to what I would take anyway. It’s all fun and games.
As a seller they may haggle. Something might be negotiated or just tell them “that’s the lowest the consignor will go.”
Many haggle bc they really don’t know how to price the material. They are not some know it all pricing god.
It must be an amazing feeling believing any room you walk into, you're the smartest person present.
Some people also feel the same way when they enter a coin forum.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Mark-ups and spreads were wider and dealer profits (even those with a B&M overhead) much bigger I would venture decades ago before the Internet and even before the TPGs. I would guess from what I have read the 1960's and 1970's were great times to be a dealer.
I do try to haggle as a buyer, in a tentative, very polite way, but back off if I get an unfriendly vibe in response.
I figure it doesn't hurt to ask. Generally, I'll just ask, "is there any wiggle room at all on this?" And more often than not, they'll knock a few bucks off. Every little bit helps. Sometimes they'll politely stand firm, and that's OK.
Being tactful is key. Insult the dealer, and you'll get nowhere fast.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
I don’t think one should necessarily assume that the dealer is the more knowledgeable party when it comes to numismatics. All you need in my area is to fork over a table fee and now you’re a coin “dealer”.
Recently I came across a really nice coin in an NGC holder at a local show. Common date but exceptional appeal. Dealer had it marked up well beyond what the date/grade usually go for, but it was an exceptional coin. I get it. This guy knows what he has and appreciates quality.
I was interested in the coin as a type set upgrade. So when he quoted the fat price, I pulled out my own PC64/CAC example of one of the better dates in the series. Let’s discuss a deal here and how we can make this work…….
Guy pulls out sheet, looks at bid, and offers me 75% of it. So he wants 25% over ask for his non CACd NGC common date, which I get because it’s nice…….but he’s offering $300 for my PC/CACd better date in 64 (also very nice fwiw).
“I don’t believe in stickers.” Cool.
I quickly bit my lip and peeled off the $600 for his coin.
Cracked it, crossed it, and it’s now a PC66 top pop plate coin that JA is evaluating as we speak. Whether it beans or not it’s likely a $1000 coin 8 days a week.
I’m sure he feels like he “won”.
Before I retired I was inside/outside sales. I had a customer that always asked for 5% off. I always added 10% to his quote, gave him his 5% and everyone was happy!
That is one way to do it.
Absolutely mandatory in auctions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I ask to see the coin and if I like it, I simply say can you do any better than this?. They do and if I really like the coin, it goes home with me. A good transaction for both of us.
Louis Armstrong
If a coin is not priced, I will ask "how much?" or "what are you asking?" and might try to negotiate further if the price is a little high.
If a coin is priced, I might ask "do you have any room?" or "best price?" and would not negotiate further after that point.
I don't think I've ever offended anyone doing this. Most dealers have pretty thick skin from years of dealing with the public, and I try not to be a difficult customer.
Have a nice day 🙂 (dont forget merry Christmas, tis the season)
What you do is if a coin is a barely made it "c" coin, mark it as "looks" a+++, next higher grade or even two grades higher. Do as the Kleinman's used to do. And if on ebay too, hype it high: "Sacrifice!!!" "PQ+++" If AU, mark "Monster Slider!" If it has a little PL characteristic, mark "PL or DMPL Monster Mirrors!" If it has a little color highlight that, "Rainbow Toned!" And liberally use "Rare!" especially if it has a sticker or has any unique features, highlight them. (Tongue in cheek).
Personally, I don't do that as hype has diminishing returns.
I can’t believe how many people don’t do their homework. A lot of dealers purchase material directly from the major auction companies and then turn around and mark it up $1000, $2000 or more and put it on their website. I see it all the time. You don’t wanna pay that much over fair market value or be the end user, in that scenario. Unless it’s something extremely scarce that you just have to have. Even then, try to cut out the middleman by doing your research and by being aware of upcoming Auctions and bidding yourself. Either that or buy it from one of the many dealers who pay 30% back of bid, when they buy from the public. Then they can still make their margin and you can buy it for a fair price. Be very, very careful.
JMHO.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Do you have an example of one of these bankrupt companies that you're talking about?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Just do a little research and you’ll find many of them. What do you mean by bankrupt? With margins like that, they are far rom bankrupt.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Dealers don't buy inventory at retail in order to put it on their websites. Just because something sold at auction for $XXX doesn't mean $XXX is the retail value. It could be, but it also could be more than or less than retail. Successful dealers know their markets, if a dealer is the buyer in an auction, my money would be "less than retail".
You are 100% correct and this is true in one of the examples that I’m thinking of. But I still think you can do better by competing against the dealer directly during the auction rather than purchasing it from him afterwards, when he is in control and gets to mark up the price as high as he wants. I think Auctions results are a truer gauge of the actual market prices. Retail price guides are accurate, sometimes, but other times they are overstated.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Sure. A dealer won't be interested in a coin at auction once the bids rise above what he can afford to pay to put the coin into inventory. That same bid amount might still be a good value for a collector.
If, by "actual market prices", you mean "retail", then yes and no. If dealers are buying for inventory, those auction results aren't registering "actual market prices".
Exactly my point. They know what they are doing.
I buy things at auction all the time and resell them for more. NOT because my customers don't know value or I have exorbitant mark-ups. It's because I knew what the retail value was and bought it right.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
What I mean is that, sometimes, ‘retail’ (book) prices are not accurate. Actual Market (auction) price can be much lower (assuming there’s nothing wrong with the coin or that it’s not substandard), so buying at retail would not be wise.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Auction price is no more the "actual market price" than the retail price from a dealer. An auction is a snapshot in time. It's goldilocks: too hot, too cold, or just right.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I’ll agree with you that the market does fluctuate, but when I’m buying a coin, I want to pay today’s price not yesterday’s or tomorrow’s
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Three coins at an auction:
1) No collector interest, it gets bought by a dealer for his website.
2) Good collector activity, it sells to one of them.
3) Several bidders perceive upgrade potential and bid the coin up.
Which one(s) are "today's price"?
edited to add... I'll tell you what I think. Without knowing who bought the coin and why, it is difficult to tell how the final bid relates to the "actual market price". YMMV, of course.
All three, because they are all susceptible to fluctuations based on value and demand.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
It isn't really "today's price", it's today's price in that auction with whomever was participating.
I've bought coins from a major Heritage auction and sold them for 20% more with a week or two on ebay. Why? The buyer's weren't participating in the auction.
We've also seen examples of coins selling for way over similar comps in auctions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Coins 1) and 3) in my post above. If both of those are examples of "today's price", what useful information does "today's price" provide?
Which brings us back to my original point. In an auction, you have a chance at getting a good price, but once it becomes the property of a retailer you’re going to pay his high price, regardless.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Yes and no. You're ignoring the other half of what i said. You also auction prices much higher than comps. Why? Because 2 people were desperate to get it. In those cases, the same coin might week be cheaper from a dealer.
At an auction, you have a chance to get a good price and a chance to overpay... just like from a dealer.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I set my limit beforehand. So, if two people wanna have a bidding war, then I back off. You have a 50-50 shot of getting a good price at auction. You have a 0% chance of doing so from a dealer who sells at retail or beyond.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
And yet a huge number of people on this site keep telling people to consign to GC to get the best return. Both things can't be true.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Three outcomes at auction as
The worse outcome is #1 which isn't bad.
If you're interested in determining a realistic retail price from a collector's perspective, it seems to me that there are two poor options and one good one. If you value a coin based on the following auction outcomes...
1) No collector interest, it gets bought by a dealer for his website.
2) Good collector activity, it sells to one of them.
3) Several bidders perceive upgrade potential (or just want it) and bid the coin up.
the results are likely to be...
1) You'll be regularly outbid when other collectors are participating in the next auction and reduced to starting threads here about how dealers overprice their coins and other collectors overpay. (Poor)
2) You'll have a decent idea of a reasonable cost for the coin. (Good)
3) You'll get an inflated sense of the coin's value and be at risk of paying more than you need to for the coin. (Poor)
As always, YMMV. Everybody is free to proceed as they wish.
One guy prices some of his stuff a little high leaving room for his whup the hagglers game.
Says “if they want play game ok we play game.”
His theory is many haggle because they are incompetent at pricing coins. So they try leave themselves a little room thru haggling.
How many times do you want to tell us the exact same thing in the exact same thread?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
An average of the three.
At least one more...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.