Wisconsin quarter mystery solved...but another question
cmerlo1
Posts: 7,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
As the discoverer of the 2000-D die-damaged nickel that was part of Mike Diamond's research on the Wisconsin Quarters (and the resulting debate), my interest in these coins has definitely increased. The excellent article by Chris Pilliod in the new 'Numismatist' has raised a new question for me. Has the 2004-D dime (FS-701) that exists with a similar curved impression been examined to see if they came from the same tool? I'm inclined to think that the nickel I sold to Mike resulted from some other process, as the die was severely clashed, and the damage affected both dies (not to mention, a different year). The dime, however is from the same mint in the same year... Perhaps someone (or one of the authors) could look at that coin, if it hasn't been done already...that would certainly give even more proof that these design alterations were done intentionally. I'm curious!
--Christian
--Christian
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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--Christian
linkie
And while it doesn't show up well there, I will be happy to email a better picture to anybody who emails me at uscoins@harlanjberk.com
TD
--Christian
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i> We will be talking about this at the Numismatic Theater presentation. >>
Man, I hope we can make it.
This is when lint, hair, eye lashes, dust, nail clippings or whatever get caught between the die blank and the hub when the die is made. The raised mark will be on all subsequent coins.
This is different from a strike-through which happens when something gets caught between the die and the blank during striking. These will be sunken into the coin and will not usually repeat from coin to coin.
This was a possibility for the WI Quarters but the sunken deformation under the low leaf shows that the mark was made after hubbing. If it was a hub-through it would be flat around the raised area.
Thanks,
Tom
I agree that the cause of the mark on the 1875-S $20 die is different that the cause of the marks on the Wisconsin dies. I just thought that it was an interesting coincidence, and proof that strange things happen at the Mints.
Tom D.
I found Chris' article interesting, but far from conclusive. Calling the mystery "solved" is overly optimistic. But we've dealt with these objections on an earlier post. No need to reprise them here.
What was used may still be around at the mint, it is probably a common tool maybe a die-sink tool?
<< <i>This week, PCGS only graded or regraded a total of Three WI Extra Leaf Quarters !! Where did the Mint/Federal Reserve hide the rest of the 50,000 that they estd. were made !! Have a great day !! Mark. >>
It's quite improbable there will be any more released.
It's only vaguely possible that some significant number was intercepted by
chance or design somewhere. It would be very difficult because these
wouldn't all be in the same balistic bag but several of them. They would
not only have to separate these out but then greatly increase their order
for more quarters as they are being separated. Some examples would get
out and it would probably be reported.
The mint rotates their coin stocks so there most probably are no more bags
of WI Denver quarters in storage. If there are another 50,000 coins then
they are probably sitting in hoards in Tucson or Texas but, this too, is quite
unlikely.
The mint estimates are probably based on how long the press(es) might have
run, rather than how long they actually ran.
--Christian
You live in what was a great location to find Extra Leaf Wisconsin Statehood Quarters( Austin, Tx). You though had to beat me and a few others to such banks in Austin as: Downtown Frost Bank and Bank One in Round Rock before 2/8/05 !! Dripping Springs had some as well as Fredericksburg, Marble Falls and even Round Mountain. You would have to have asked for many rolls or boxes but you would have probably found some. Most of the Austin, Tx WI Extra Leaf Quarters were sold to a coin/jewerly store now closed in Kerrville, Tx up until mid 2005. That dealer wholesaled his 80+ sets to Lone Star Coins in San Antonio by mid/late 2005. Mc Bride's coin shop on Lamar in Austin never liked the WI Extra Leaf Quarters. They were afraid to sell them to good customers only to find out later that the "FUFU" coins were worthless like Ken Potter and Arnie Margolis subscribe to. Maybe the rare coins needed to be released in Michigan and NY !! Then they might be "valuable " !! Happy hunting !! Mark.
Maybe the rare coins needed to be released in Michigan and NY !! Then they might be "valuable " !! Happy hunting !! Mark. Text
LOL
--Christian
<< <i>The 2004-D "double ear" dime shows significant differences from the "extra leaves". The curved ridge is less sharply defined and is vaguely triangular in vertical cross section.
I found Chris' article interesting, but far from conclusive. Calling the mystery "solved" is overly optimistic. But we've dealt with these objections on an earlier post. No need to reprise them here. >>
Finally got a chance to read the article over the weekend. Didn't see anything new from what we collectively wrote about them back when they first came out. I would not call any mystery solved, and don't think that that can happen unless some Mint worker 'fesses up to something.
MOO
TD
You will be missed at the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Presentation Friday. Looks as though the Extra Leaf Quarters are heading higher on Ebay !! Have a great day !! Mark.
Rick, the WI variety quarters have now come into their own "limelight" now that such experts as Rick and Chris have elevated their existence to such current levels of collector interest. As I proceeded to walk the brouse area of the Milwaukee ANA show last week, I discussed the WI Quarters with many prominent dealers and collectors. At no time did any who likes modern varieties ignore me. On the contrary, many were very interested in the coins. Some dealers said that they didn't have anymore simply because they had sold out of them. I tried to purchase some more WI High Leaf coins but couldn't buy them at dealer prices. True, there were say four dealers that probably took some of their WI quarters back home from Milwaukee, but it wasn't because no one wanted to buy them. The dealers knew that with the current attention, the coins have a great future and they simply didn't feel any urgency to sell them !!
Rick, I flew back home to Texas with many upbeat thoughts concerning the quarters. I made a point to talk to several people after the theater presentation. The conversations dealt with topics such as: further research of the added designs on the coin, aspects of the Denver die shop in November, 2004; the future interest and prices of the High and Low Quarters and that these scvarce coins have now gained the respect that they so rightfully deserve !! Remember, Rick Snow is planning to write a book in the near future that will cover the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters in great depth. Anyone who cares to can send Rick Snow (Eagle Eye rare Coins) their stories about the High and Low Leaf Quarters which Rick may use in his future publication.
Have a great day collectind coins !! Mark.
Here the latest update from Rick. Although, I guess he hasn't been here for a while.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I always thought it was more likely that they were intentionally created by someone at the mint. If anything, I think that makes the history more interesting though.
I agree except it is quite apparent that at least two individuals were involved making it a coinspiracy. Indeed, there is even a hint that there was as sort of official sanction making it a "type" coin rather than a variety or an error.
Hey, it started as an honest typo. deal with it.
The below thread was brought up not too long ago, but ties in well here.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/932119/sabotage-at-the-mint-ten-years-ago
Since the Denver Mint did open its own die shop in 1996, it would have both unhardened and hardened dies in the die production pipeline. Assuming that these and other unauthorized markings were added to various dies within the Mint, I would assume that it was by somebody with access to the unhardened dies.
Years ago I experimented with adding something to an obsolete (but hardened) coin club steel die using the letter punches I used to counterstamp coins and my six pound sledge hammer, and I could do nothing to the surface. Obviously most of the world has stronger arms than I do, but I don't think that anybody could have put those "leafs" into hardened dies as deep as they were.
I enjoyed reading the article.
But posting the full text and photos from a current magazine without explicit permission from Rick @EagleEye or the publisher has to be a copyright violation, sorry.
https://conecaonline.org/errorscope/
Hmmmm, you might be right. A coin club friend gave me a copy of this magazine. I thought it was public information. Maybe not.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
In a few days, Thanksgiving will be here to share all the things that are thankful for with family and friends. A reminder…. This will be the 21st Birthday acknowledgement in the Numismatic World of our Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters that started in this world back on Thanksgiving Weekend , 2004. The candles are starting to accumulate. Happy Holidays and a Special Thanks to our many Veterans. Mark here in Texas.
Cool story.
Especially the YN connection
I passed on them at the time.
Might have to revisit the coins, and pick them up.
Not much available above MS65
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I have to say that when I logged in a little while ago and saw I had 14 alerts, my first thought was that I'd said something stupid and was being ratio'd into oblivion! I had completely forgotten about this post in the 18 years since making it!
Thank you @OAKSTAR for reviving it and for the new info!
I never believed the die clash theory- if I remember right I looked at engraving tools (thinking some would be present in the die shop) and settled on a semi-circular chasing tool as a possible implement. A nut driver makes sense, as it's also likely to be present in a die shop and is also likely hardened steel just like an engraving tool.
Thanks to @HIGHLOWLEAVES , I've had the opportunity to examine the dime as well, and the mark there looks similar, though not as easy to see since it isn't in the field.
And, finally, years after these were first reported, I did get a high leaf in change at a local convenience store here in Austin.
Saw the start of this discussion only a few days ago myownself. Note that McBride's Coin Shop in Austin was mentioned in the earlier postings.
Mr. Snow's article is interesting and compelling. He indicates that it is now known, and can be conclusively proven that these added elements were put on the dies by a Denver mint employee.
He talks about die manufacturing rooms, a June 21, 2005 mint investigation, theories, Friday night shifts, shutting off presses, dies put on shelves and pressman going to lunch.
Mr. Snow references public announcements; coin world, numismatic articles, Associated Press and segments on TV news shows about these coins. Shouldn't he be sighting specific official U.S. Mint documents or notarized affidavits that these events actually took place, not opinionated pieces or second or third hand accounts?
Are you (or is anyone) aware of any official documents in the public domain that confirm the intentional modification, altering or manipulation of the original design or working dies?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Nothing presented has come even remotely close to convincing me that these were intentionally made.
I run my own mint and I engrave, harden, and use dies all the time. So I have some experience with how these things can happen.
My opinion is (and I am quite certain of this) that the extra "leafs" were caused by incidental impacts from the end of a steel bolt. The crescent shape in the image below was created by lightly hammering the head of bolt while the end of that bolt was up against (and slightly tilted on) an un-hardened metal surface. The bolt I used was an extra one that came with my Denver Mint surplus coin press.
I believe these sorts of die mishaps occur fairly often. Most of the time, inspectors spot the damage and cull any damaged dies. But in the case of the "extra leaf" coins, the damage happened to fit in with the design and so the inspectors didn't notice it.
If you were an employee at the Denver Mint and you wanted to risk your job and freedom making a rare coin that you could profit from, there are far better (and potentially much more valuable) "errors" that could be made.
.
That works for me Dan. Why do I think you should have written that article, not Mr. Snow.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )