Wisconsin quarter mystery solved...but another question

cmerlo1 · July 26, 2007 12:12AM

As the discoverer of the 2000-D die-damaged nickel that was part of Mike Diamond's research on the Wisconsin Quarters (and the resulting debate), my interest in these coins has definitely increased. The excellent article by Chris Pilliod in the new 'Numismatist' has raised a new question for me. Has the 2004-D dime (FS-701) that exists with a similar curved impression been examined to see if they came from the same tool? I'm inclined to think that the nickel I sold to Mike resulted from some other process, as the die was severely clashed, and the damage affected both dies (not to mention, a different year). The dime, however is from the same mint in the same year... Perhaps someone (or one of the authors) could look at that coin, if it hasn't been done already...that would certainly give even more proof that these design alterations were done intentionally. I'm curious!

--Christian

EagleEye · July 26, 2007 2:24AM

Mike was happy to furnish me an example of this variety and I sent it to Chris to measure under he electron microscope, which can acurately compare the arc shape. It looks very similar. We will be talking about this at the Numismatic Theater presentation.

cmerlo1 · July 26, 2007 2:29AM

Thanks, Rick! I was hoping that was being done...I wish I could be at the presentation!

--Christian

CaptHenway · July 26, 2007 3:17AM

FWIW, I have an 1875-S $20 in inventory that has a raised, curved line on the neck. It is here:

linkie

And while it doesn't show up well there, I will be happy to email a better picture to anybody who emails me at uscoins@harlanjberk.com

TD

cmerlo1 · July 26, 2007 3:35AM

Interesting...could the tool be a type that the mint has always used?

--Christian

bushmaster8 · July 26, 2007 3:45AM

I always wondered about the raised arc lying across the bell-hanger bolt in this image:

CoinHusker · July 26, 2007 3:54AM

<< <i> We will be talking about this at the Numismatic Theater presentation. >>

Man, I hope we can make it.

EagleEye · July 26, 2007 4:11AM

Sometimes raised lines on coins seen and are caused by what is called a hub-through.

This is when lint, hair, eye lashes, dust, nail clippings or whatever get caught between the die blank and the hub when the die is made. The raised mark will be on all subsequent coins.

This is different from a strike-through which happens when something gets caught between the die and the blank during striking. These will be sunken into the coin and will not usually repeat from coin to coin.

This was a possibility for the WI Quarters but the sunken deformation under the low leaf shows that the mark was made after hubbing. If it was a hub-through it would be flat around the raised area.

CaptHenway · July 26, 2007 4:28AM

Rick....will you see if you can post that picture here?
Thanks,
Tom

EagleEye · July 27, 2007 2:44AM

CaptHenway · July 27, 2007 4:47AM

Thanks, Rick.
I agree that the cause of the mark on the 1875-S $20 die is different that the cause of the marks on the Wisconsin dies. I just thought that it was an interesting coincidence, and proof that strange things happen at the Mints.
Tom D.

errormaven · July 27, 2007 10:46PM

The 2004-D "double ear" dime shows significant differences from the "extra leaves". The curved ridge is less sharply defined and is vaguely triangular in vertical cross section.

I found Chris' article interesting, but far from conclusive. Calling the mystery "solved" is overly optimistic. But we've dealt with these objections on an earlier post. No need to reprise them here.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · July 29, 2007 7:35AM

This week, PCGS only graded or regraded a total of Three WI Extra Leaf Quarters !! Where did the Mint/Federal Reserve hide the rest of the 50,000 that they estd. were made !! Have a great day !! Mark.

Coin Finder · July 29, 2007 7:38AM

I just finished reading this article and I must say it is the most plausible theory I have yet to read. I never did by the die clash theory. The pushed up metal around the "leafs" on the die face creating a gully around the leafs on the coin makes sense. This happened by blunt force twice on one coin and once on the other.

What was used may still be around at the mint, it is probably a common tool maybe a die-sink tool?

cladking · July 29, 2007 7:58AM

<< <i>This week, PCGS only graded or regraded a total of Three WI Extra Leaf Quarters !! Where did the Mint/Federal Reserve hide the rest of the 50,000 that they estd. were made !! Have a great day !! Mark. >>

It's quite improbable there will be any more released.

It's only vaguely possible that some significant number was intercepted by
chance or design somewhere. It would be very difficult because these
wouldn't all be in the same balistic bag but several of them. They would
not only have to separate these out but then greatly increase their order
for more quarters as they are being separated. Some examples would get
out and it would probably be reported.

The mint rotates their coin stocks so there most probably are no more bags
of WI Denver quarters in storage. If there are another 50,000 coins then
they are probably sitting in hoards in Tucson or Texas but, this too, is quite
unlikely.

The mint estimates are probably based on how long the press(es) might have
run, rather than how long they actually ran.

cmerlo1 · July 29, 2007 8:51AM

They gotta be in hoards...It's been weeks since I've seen a Wisconsin Quarter in circulation here (Austin, TX). Everybody I knew knew someone who found one of the extra leaves coins in change. I went through several hundred dollars' worth and never found one! (Should've gone to a bank in San Antionio, I guess!)

--Christian

HIGHLOWLEAVES · July 29, 2007 12:18PM

Hi Christian,
You live in what was a great location to find Extra Leaf Wisconsin Statehood Quarters( Austin, Tx). You though had to beat me and a few others to such banks in Austin as: Downtown Frost Bank and Bank One in Round Rock before 2/8/05 !! Dripping Springs had some as well as Fredericksburg, Marble Falls and even Round Mountain. You would have to have asked for many rolls or boxes but you would have probably found some. Most of the Austin, Tx WI Extra Leaf Quarters were sold to a coin/jewerly store now closed in Kerrville, Tx up until mid 2005. That dealer wholesaled his 80+ sets to Lone Star Coins in San Antonio by mid/late 2005. Mc Bride's coin shop on Lamar in Austin never liked the WI Extra Leaf Quarters. They were afraid to sell them to good customers only to find out later that the "FUFU" coins were worthless like Ken Potter and Arnie Margolis subscribe to. Maybe the rare coins needed to be released in Michigan and NY !! Then they might be "valuable " !! Happy hunting !! Mark.

Amigo · July 29, 2007 2:01PM

Maybe the rare coins needed to be released in Michigan and NY !! Then they might be "valuable " !! Happy hunting !! Mark. Text

LOL

cmerlo1 · July 29, 2007 10:02PM

I bought $200 worth from Bank One on 183 near Cedar Park, and another $100 from the Chase bank that is upstairs from ANACS...not to mention untold hundreds in change...I think people around here saved ALL Wisconsin quarters, regardless of variety...I'm going to keep looking, though!

--Christian

CaptHenway · July 29, 2007 11:45PM

<< <i>The 2004-D "double ear" dime shows significant differences from the "extra leaves". The curved ridge is less sharply defined and is vaguely triangular in vertical cross section.

I found Chris' article interesting, but far from conclusive. Calling the mystery "solved" is overly optimistic. But we've dealt with these objections on an earlier post. No need to reprise them here. >>

Finally got a chance to read the article over the weekend. Didn't see anything new from what we collectively wrote about them back when they first came out. I would not call any mystery solved, and don't think that that can happen unless some Mint worker 'fesses up to something.
MOO
TD

HIGHLOWLEAVES · July 31, 2007 2:13PM

I trust that many collectors who like the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Statehood Quarters will attend Chris Pilloid and Rick Snow's Theater Presentation on Friday August 10, 2007 at Room 202B at 2Pm at the Milwaukee, WI ANA's Worlds Fair of Money. This should be a great program. Thanks Chris and Rick, Sincerely, Mark.

pitboss · July 31, 2007 10:30PM

I will not be able to attend but I'm sure you will be able to fill me in Mark. Give me a call when you get back. Steve

HIGHLOWLEAVES · August 1, 2007 4:21AM

When will those worthless "Die Gouged" Wiscomsin Extra Leaf Quarters "Go Away"..... I just got off the telephone with a Milwaukee, WI. newspaper reporter for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Paul was calling back and wanted detailed information concerning the Snow and Pilloid ANA Theater Presentation that will explain the secrets of the Denver Mint's Intentional Beginings of the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Statehood Quarters. The reporter knows that Wisconsin state quarters are of great interest to many coin collectors in their great state !! I suggested that he call Jane Colvard with ANA in Colorado Springs for more seminar information. With all the time that Chris and Rick have spent putting this valuable information together, I trust that the 2PM Friday Presentation will be well attended. Have a great day collecting coins. Mark.

pitboss · August 8, 2007 12:10AM

The date is getting closer!

HIGHLOWLEAVES · August 8, 2007 4:08AM

Hi Steve,
You will be missed at the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Presentation Friday. Looks as though the Extra Leaf Quarters are heading higher on Ebay !! Have a great day !! Mark.

pitboss · August 8, 2007 7:09AM

I wish I could go,but there is no way I can get away at this time. Please give me a call when you get back. I have noticed that the prices are on the rise.

Agflyer · August 11, 2007 3:58AM

Was anyone here able to attend the August 10th presentation? I didn't attend, but I'd like to know the outcome.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · August 14, 2007 10:01PM

Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod presented a very interesting seminar last Friday afternoon which covered many aspects of the scarce WI Extra Leaf Quarters. Rick dealt with the history of the quarter find in AZ and TX, the numbers of each variety found to date and the market prices over the years among other things. Chris explained with great slide photos his very convincing theory from the viewpoint of a very well educated metalurgist background. His presentation was similar to his revealing article in the August, 2007 Numismatist. Chris did help us better understand his evidence at the meeting. Time was our worst enemy and we had to vacate the theater room on the hour and let Q. David Bowers present his seminar. In looking back, some of us could have ajourned to some other room or area and continue with the discussion. I certainly did not want to take any attention away from Rick and Chris. They have devoted alot of their time weeks in advance to present such a quality presentation. They rightfully received a loud appause at the conclusion of their meeting. ANA made a video of the presentation that should be available in a few weeks.

Rick, the WI variety quarters have now come into their own "limelight" now that such experts as Rick and Chris have elevated their existence to such current levels of collector interest. As I proceeded to walk the brouse area of the Milwaukee ANA show last week, I discussed the WI Quarters with many prominent dealers and collectors. At no time did any who likes modern varieties ignore me. On the contrary, many were very interested in the coins. Some dealers said that they didn't have anymore simply because they had sold out of them. I tried to purchase some more WI High Leaf coins but couldn't buy them at dealer prices. True, there were say four dealers that probably took some of their WI quarters back home from Milwaukee, but it wasn't because no one wanted to buy them. The dealers knew that with the current attention, the coins have a great future and they simply didn't feel any urgency to sell them !!

Rick, I flew back home to Texas with many upbeat thoughts concerning the quarters. I made a point to talk to several people after the theater presentation. The conversations dealt with topics such as: further research of the added designs on the coin, aspects of the Denver die shop in November, 2004; the future interest and prices of the High and Low Quarters and that these scvarce coins have now gained the respect that they so rightfully deserve !! Remember, Rick Snow is planning to write a book in the near future that will cover the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters in great depth. Anyone who cares to can send Rick Snow (Eagle Eye rare Coins) their stories about the High and Low Leaf Quarters which Rick may use in his future publication.

Have a great day collectind coins !! Mark.

OAKSTAR · November 8, 2025 6:47PM

Here the latest update from Rick. Although, I guess he hasn't been here for a while.

TrickleCharge · November 9, 2025 6:13AM

I always thought it was more likely that they were intentionally created by someone at the mint. If anything, I think that makes the history more interesting though.

cladking · November 9, 2025 7:29AM

@TrickleCharge said:
I always thought it was more likely that they were intentionally created by someone at the mint. If anything, I think that makes the history more interesting though.

I agree except it is quite apparent that at least two individuals were involved making it a coinspiracy. Indeed, there is even a hint that there was as sort of official sanction making it a "type" coin rather than a variety or an error.

Hey, it started as an honest typo. deal with it.

TrickleCharge · November 9, 2025 8:30AM

The below thread was brought up not too long ago, but ties in well here.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/932119/sabotage-at-the-mint-ten-years-ago

CaptHenway · November 9, 2025 9:03AM

Since the Denver Mint did open its own die shop in 1996, it would have both unhardened and hardened dies in the die production pipeline. Assuming that these and other unauthorized markings were added to various dies within the Mint, I would assume that it was by somebody with access to the unhardened dies.

Years ago I experimented with adding something to an obsolete (but hardened) coin club steel die using the letter punches I used to counterstamp coins and my six pound sledge hammer, and I could do nothing to the surface. Obviously most of the world has stronger arms than I do, but I don't think that anybody could have put those "leafs" into hardened dies as deep as they were.

TrickleCharge · November 9, 2025 9:12AM

@CaptHenway said:
Since the Denver Mint did open its own die shop in 1996, it would have both unhardened and hardened dies in the die production pipeline. Assuming that these and other unauthorized markings were added to various dies within the Mint, I would assume that it was by somebody with access to the unhardened dies.

Years ago I experimented with adding something to an obsolete (but hardened) coin club steel die using the letter punches I used to counterstamp coins and my six pound sledge hammer, and I could do nothing to the surface. Obviously most of the world has stronger arms than I do, but I don't think that anybody could have put those "leafs" into hardened dies as deep as they were.

yosclimber · November 9, 2025 12:37PM

@OAKSTAR said:
Here the latest update from Rick. Although, I guess he hasn't been here for a while.
...

I enjoyed reading the article.
But posting the full text and photos from a current magazine without explicit permission from Rick @EagleEye or the publisher has to be a copyright violation, sorry.
https://conecaonline.org/errorscope/

OAKSTAR · November 9, 2025 12:47PM

@yosclimber said:

@OAKSTAR said:
Here the latest update from Rick. Although, I guess he hasn't been here for a while.
...

I enjoyed reading the article.
But posting the full text and photos from a current magazine without explicit permission from Rick @EagleEye or the publisher has to be a copyright violation, sorry.
https://conecaonline.org/errorscope/

Hmmmm, you might be right. A coin club friend gave me a copy of this magazine. I thought it was public information. Maybe not.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · November 9, 2025 2:21PM

In a few days, Thanksgiving will be here to share all the things that are thankful for with family and friends. A reminder…. This will be the 21st Birthday acknowledgement in the Numismatic World of our Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters that started in this world back on Thanksgiving Weekend , 2004. The candles are starting to accumulate. Happy Holidays and a Special Thanks to our many Veterans. Mark here in Texas.

yspsales · November 9, 2025 2:55PM

Cool story.

Especially the YN connection

I passed on them at the time.

Might have to revisit the coins, and pick them up.

Not much available above MS65

cmerlo1 · November 10, 2025 1:58PM

I have to say that when I logged in a little while ago and saw I had 14 alerts, my first thought was that I'd said something stupid and was being ratio'd into oblivion! I had completely forgotten about this post in the 18 years since making it!

Thank you @OAKSTAR for reviving it and for the new info!

I never believed the die clash theory- if I remember right I looked at engraving tools (thinking some would be present in the die shop) and settled on a semi-circular chasing tool as a possible implement. A nut driver makes sense, as it's also likely to be present in a die shop and is also likely hardened steel just like an engraving tool.

Thanks to @HIGHLOWLEAVES , I've had the opportunity to examine the dime as well, and the mark there looks similar, though not as easy to see since it isn't in the field.

And, finally, years after these were first reported, I did get a high leaf in change at a local convenience store here in Austin.

shortnock · November 10, 2025 2:05PM

Saw the start of this discussion only a few days ago myownself. Note that McBride's Coin Shop in Austin was mentioned in the earlier postings.

OAKSTAR · November 11, 2025 7:30AM

@CaptHenway said:
Since the Denver Mint did open its own die shop in 1996, it would have both unhardened and hardened dies in the die production pipeline. Assuming that these and other unauthorized markings were added to various dies within the Mint, I would assume that it was by somebody with access to the unhardened dies.

Years ago I experimented with adding something to an obsolete (but hardened) coin club steel die using the letter punches I used to counterstamp coins and my six pound sledge hammer, and I could do nothing to the surface. Obviously most of the world has stronger arms than I do, but I don't think that anybody could have put those "leafs" into hardened dies as deep as they were.

Mr. Snow's article is interesting and compelling. He indicates that it is now known, and can be conclusively proven that these added elements were put on the dies by a Denver mint employee.

He talks about die manufacturing rooms, a June 21, 2005 mint investigation, theories, Friday night shifts, shutting off presses, dies put on shelves and pressman going to lunch.

Mr. Snow references public announcements; coin world, numismatic articles, Associated Press and segments on TV news shows about these coins. Shouldn't he be sighting specific official U.S. Mint documents or notarized affidavits that these events actually took place, not opinionated pieces or second or third hand accounts?

Are you (or is anyone) aware of any official documents in the public domain that confirm the intentional modification, altering or manipulation of the original design or working dies?

dcarr · November 12, 2025 11:44AM

Nothing presented has come even remotely close to convincing me that these were intentionally made.

I run my own mint and I engrave, harden, and use dies all the time. So I have some experience with how these things can happen.

My opinion is (and I am quite certain of this) that the extra "leafs" were caused by incidental impacts from the end of a steel bolt. The crescent shape in the image below was created by lightly hammering the head of bolt while the end of that bolt was up against (and slightly tilted on) an un-hardened metal surface. The bolt I used was an extra one that came with my Denver Mint surplus coin press.

I believe these sorts of die mishaps occur fairly often. Most of the time, inspectors spot the damage and cull any damaged dies. But in the case of the "extra leaf" coins, the damage happened to fit in with the design and so the inspectors didn't notice it.

If you were an employee at the Denver Mint and you wanted to risk your job and freedom making a rare coin that you could profit from, there are far better (and potentially much more valuable) "errors" that could be made.

.

OAKSTAR · November 12, 2025 5:16PM

That works for me Dan. Why do I think you should have written that article, not Mr. Snow.

Typekat · November 13, 2025 6:55AM

@dcarr said:

If you were an employee at the Denver Mint and you wanted to risk your job and freedom making a rare coin that you could profit from, there are far better (and potentially much more valuable) "errors" that could be made.

.

Dan , thanks for the technical explanations based on your direct experience.

But the situation did not involve a possible “profit” angle for any Mint employees.

fathom · November 13, 2025 8:13AM

@Typekat said:

@dcarr said:

If you were an employee at the Denver Mint and you wanted to risk your job and freedom making a rare coin that you could profit from, there are far better (and potentially much more valuable) "errors" that could be made.

.

Dan , thanks for the technical explanations based on your direct experience.

But the situation did not involve a possible “profit” angle for any Mint employees.

Agree.

The odds of the bolt drops exactly where they should start and end on the corn stack mimicking leaves, TWICE are galactic.

Having dealt with a significant number of employees they will do knucklehead things out of boredom or stupidity or both, regardless of profit motive.

OAKSTAR · November 13, 2025 9:18AM

@fathom said:

@Typekat said:

@dcarr said:

If you were an employee at the Denver Mint and you wanted to risk your job and freedom making a rare coin that you could profit from, there are far better (and potentially much more valuable) "errors" that could be made.

.

Dan , thanks for the technical explanations based on your direct experience.

But the situation did not involve a possible “profit” angle for any Mint employees.

Agree.

The odds of the bolt drops exactly where they should start and end on the corn stack mimicking leaves, TWICE are galactic.

Having dealt with a significant number of employees they will do knucklehead things out of boredom or stupidity or both, regardless of profit motive.

Hence the latest pro-athlete gambling scandals. These idiots making millions and pissing it away for thousands!! It's gotta be something in their DNA!!

Typekat · November 13, 2025 5:07PM

@fathom said:

The odds of the bolt drops exactly where they should start and end on the corn stack mimicking leaves, TWICE are galactic.

——

Yet dcarr,who runs his own mint, is “certain” that the marks are incidental.

—-

This argument has been going on for 21 years now - it’s old enough to drink!!

yspsales · November 13, 2025 5:42PM

@Typekat said:

@fathom said:

The odds of the bolt drops exactly where they should start and end on the corn stack mimicking leaves, TWICE are galactic.

——

Yet dcarr,who runs his own mint, is “certain” that the marks are incidental.

—-

This argument has been going on for 21 years now - it’s old enough to drink!!

Two exacting examples not crossing into other design elements make me think man made.

@dcarr reproduction seems to have a bit more going on at the bottom of the screw used.

Would like to see him do it again and stay within the lines of a letter or design.

Just seems too perfect to be random and not cross over into other elements. Or their could be a perfect explanation only an engraver could explain.

CaptHenway · November 13, 2025 6:15PM

I respectfully believe that the occurrences of these and multiple other circles or arcs over the years (circle around the tiny Lincoln on the reverse of the LMC; arc under the ear on a Roosevelt dime) have been too perfectly placed to be random and/or incidental. MOO.

I think that we need a new name for a new class of "Unauthorized, Mint Personnel Made Design Additions." or "...Design Graffiti" if you prefer. I cannot think of a term with a catchy acronym. Any suggestions?

TD

OAKSTAR · November 13, 2025 6:26PM

@CaptHenway said:

I think that we need a new name for a new class of "Unauthorized, Mint Personnel Made Design Additions." or "...Design Graffiti" if you prefer. I cannot think of a term with a catchy acronym. Any suggestions?

TD

Someone once came up with this acronym and term. I don't recall who it was.

UFO = Unidentified Fascinating Oddity

dcarr · November 14, 2025 2:08AM

@CaptHenway said:
I respectfully believe that the occurrences of these and multiple other circles or arcs over the years (circle around the tiny Lincoln on the reverse of the LMC; arc under the ear on a Roosevelt dime) have been too perfectly placed to be random and/or incidental. MOO.

I think that we need a new name for a new class of "Unauthorized, Mint Personnel Made Design Additions." or "...Design Graffiti" if you prefer. I cannot think of a term with a catchy acronym. Any suggestions?

TD

.

What we don't know is, how often do these types of arcs get onto dies. We know of a few cases because of the observed coins. In these instances, the defects look like they are part of the design. If hundreds of these defects have been accidental, a few could be positioned (by chance) in such a way to get past the inspectors.

.

Wisconsin quarter mystery solved...but another question

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