Santiago Colonial Coins
SimonW
Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
A series I’ve been watching for a long time, but very very rarely buy one, because they’re usually in worse shape that these. I was delighted to land these two, they’re very hard to find. I’ve only seen three of the 1777, one that sold for more but in a gen holder (damage.). I feel like I got a serious bargain, I would have paid more, but I’m glad I didn’t have to.
I wonder if it’s because these were at the beginning of the auction, some of the first few coins offered. Does placement in auction order make a huge difference?
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
8
Comments
I was watching much of the auction. My amateur take is that it seemed like relatively rare but lower grade coins were selling for almost bargain prices because most collectors prefer higher grades. I picked up a couple of Popayan 2 reales that I thought went very low for how good they looked.
For sure, that’s my assumption as well, if one of these showed up in even XF-AU (1777) it would go through the roof! At the moment, this is the highest grade at either service that’s problem free (there’s a single Fine that’s damaged in an NGC holder). I can’t seem to find anything on any auction websites either.
I would prefer a higher grade…but, whachagunnado?! It’s the best out there. Please prove me wrong and offer me something better!
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
@threefifty feel free to post the coins from Popayan you won!
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
The one and only coin I have from this mint is a 1 real from 1811. It's in awful condition (I'd grade it "AG"), but I only paid six bucks for it, eleven years ago.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
And I checked the 2x2 and found out how I bought it so cheap. The dealer had misattributed it as Mexico City mint. I don't think I even looked close enough at it to know it was Santiago until I brought it home, but I do recall I could tell at a glance that that mintmark wasn't "Mo".
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
I am a big fan of Ferdinand VII issues, especially those with the Charles IV bust, so was glad to get these!
@SimonW , I love your Santiago 2R 1777. That is a very scarce date for Santiago, with approx. 10 examples known, all in VG or less. Congrats.
The 1776 is slightly scarcer than 1777 (imo), but here the highest known is a very nice VF ex Medina. Your example is also very nice, if in lower grade.
My 1776 is not too bad, but has some damage. My 2R 1773 is OK.
As I have mentioned before, all Santiago mint silver for Carlos III is very scarce in higher grades. Any coin Fine or beyond is a prize. Carlos IV is much more affordable.
@Eddi I’ve never seen nicer ones, those are very nice coins!
Were you saying the 1776 is tougher than the 1777? Could be, I know they’re both hard.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
@threefifty from what I recall the Popayan mint are very hard to find, very cool!
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
These are the other two I have that round out my 1770’s Santiago coins. These are two much easier issues, in retrospect I should have bought a lot more at the recent Stacks sale.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Not a design or mint for this design I follow closely.
There are so many scarce or rare coins from cobs, pillars, and portraits + the concurrent gold coinage, my observation is that collectors just won't pay up for most lower quality examples.
If this was the second installment of the Richard August collection, I was interested in the Mexico Carlos & Joanna P-58 1R which I think sold at a bargain price. (Less than the prior Heritage sale like 15 years ago.) Second coin was the 1760 Guatemala 1/2R.
That’s correct, I bid up the 1760 1/2, but bailed right at the end. I felt like it was right at the end of my justification on price.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Quite nice, both. I admire the interest you show (hich I share!) for the Santiago minor issues.
As you mention, both are among the most 'common' CIII 2R issues from Santiago. 1775 is the most common from the 1770's.
My beat up, but still nicely detailed 2R 1776:
@eddi they sure don’t come with that many details very often! Never seen one with that much meat!
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Here is my only Charles III 2R from Santiago
I have two Charles III Real's, though the same date.
and the more recently acquired
Then my 4R Charles IV
Nice coins!
Latin American Collection
Somehow you’re going to find the ONE surviving Santiago 1777 2R in MS. 😂
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Although not a 1777, I was the recent underbidder (by agent) on the coin below and I'm still in a bit of disbelief that what I thought was a strong bid (6k hammer) couldn't get it done.
I saw that, an incredible coin! @JohnnyCache
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
@JohnnyCache , very nice pair of Santiago 1R 1789's'!
That second example is in exemplary condition - may I ask what sale is that coin from?
Here are some more of my Carlos III coins from Santiago.
Your examples are beautiful!
It was from a recent Stack's Auction, the second or third group of what remained of the Richard August coins
I’ve slowly been picking these up, still learning the early Santiago coinage.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Very nice! I am really glad to see the interest you show for the coinage of colonial Santiago.
During the Spanish Colonial era the Capitania General de Chile, as the area south of the Virreinato del Peru was called, was essentially a distant provincial backwater which generally lacked the fabled riches of Peru to the north. Silver coinage was scarce (far less plentiful that Alto Peru (Bolivia), Peru, or Mexico).
Are you planning on concentrating on the coinage of Carlos III, or expand to Carlos IV and Fernando VII ? That 1797 1/2 real of CIV sure is nice.
Thank you Eddi! It started a few years ago when I bought a Santiago 1/2R for something like $45, it was PCGS certified and I figured, a good portion of the cost off this coin is certification 😂. Then I spent some time looking at more of them, learned how rare the earlier ones are (including some of the information I got with my interactions with you.) and thought I’d give them a shot. I’m working on the 1770’s coins first, but won’t turn down a nice piece at a reasonable price. Carlos III is my first priority, eventually I’ll move to later dates I’m sure. They’re quite hard to find!
The portrait series never really appealed to me, but these Santiago minors are really cool!
You sure have a great set going on Eddi, years invested I’m sure!
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Did not think I would get drawn in to "hand struck" Guatemalan cobs, but the story behind these issues is so cool, and this is of appropriate weight, and Richard August put together such a fine collection, I could not resist:
EDIT: Shoot, sorry folks, wrong thread... I'll go put it in the right place. It IS Thursday after all, and I opened the wrong tab...
If anyone here suggests I delete this here I will happily do so.
No worries @Plus00Vltra
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Have just noticed there was a Santiago 1R 1775 in the recent Stack's Bowers sale.
The buyer got himself a very rare coin, with no more than 4-5 known to me, for a ridiculously low price. I hope somebody here bought it.
If I did not have one already, I would be upset with myself (even if I paid a LOT more for mine).
I did bid on it, I believe I was underbidder. Looks like I should have gone higher. I’ll be honest, I don’t really know what survival numbers are on any of these, just a vague idea. With the August sale I was focusing mostly on 2R.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I don’t really know what survival numbers are on any of these, just a vague idea. With the August sale I was focusing mostly on 2R.
Hopefully Brad Yonaka will write a book on the Bust coinage covering other mints aside from Mexico. These aren't designs I like much and even less in the typical quality, but I'm still interested in it as a reference point versus the pillar coinage I collect.
I have also seen higher quality bust minors (not Chile) offered in the last few years that I would not have minded buying for speculative purposes, but I don't "invest" in coins and don't have extra budget for it. Some have sold for prices I view as quite reasonable given the potential or probable scarcity.
RE: Santiago 1775 1R -
That DID go cheap... Goes to show why it pays to be diligent about perusing every auction for bargain opportunities if you're a serious buyer/collector. It gets tedious as most things tend to go where they "should" in major auctions... but an obscure minor such as this can slip through. I always used to put in a ton of "just in case" bids...
Online auction archives can give a good idea. In this case, I don't find a SINGLE piece other than this one on ACsearch, Aureo, Heritage, Stack's or Worthpoint eBay archives.
Well darn
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I find it interesting that similarly scarce minor coins in the Lima series, for example the year 1766, are much better researched and extant numbers estimated. This, thanks I would say to the keen interest our Canadian friend took in this series (I would name his handle but don't know what he calls himself nowadays. Thanks to him anyways).
The example in my collection, which I posted above, is only marginally better preserved than this one, yet I paid multiples of what this one went for at an auction in Chile. Interest was intense, explaining the knock-down price.
I am really sorry you missed out. Had I known about it, I would have alerted you.
Not a Carlos III, but in excellent condition. Actually, as close to uncirculated as I have ever seen:
You bought that right?
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Yes, this one came out of a german auction.
@Eddi, lovely piece... and genuine. I note that b/c, as you may have seen, there is a decent (though usually a bit porous) 1803 2R fake that has been floating around for a bit now (they seem to emanate from Spain... same group of sellers that has peddled numerous fakes on eBay and TodoColeccion). I've also seen the same fake tweaked to bear the dates 1805, 1806 and 1807. An 1803 must've been the original model coin because it's an exact die match (obv and rev) to Eddi's 1803.
There are a number of Charles III 2R fakes as well (same group of forgers)... plus a number of Charles III 4R as well (same fake, many different dates offered).
The fake:
Same dies used to make an 1806... oops: