@jmlanzaf said:
I think it's real and paranoia has taken over the hobby.
I would lean that direction as well. There were known fake rattler slabs but it’s still unclear that this one would make sense. Yes someone could have switched coins but that seems like a lot of work even when the MS 65 slabbed coins were going for a lot more back in those times (and considering the fact that this coin is still a 65 or close to it now and then-I don’t know how successful of an operation someone could have run replacing 65s with cheaper coins that were almost 65s).
@2windy2fish said: @logger7 I beg to differ, if the coin happens to sticker it would not prove that the holder is legit.
I was thinking that even if it doesn't pass with cac, asking them to examine an old holder which they are pros on as much as anyone, they'd identify any problem with the holder as well. Probably more than once they've sent submitters notes on a rare holder.
The first PCGS grading and counterfeit detection book had the diagnostics for rattler counterfeit holders. I am not sure I can find my copy of that book.
@2windy2fish said: @logger7 I beg to differ, if the coin happens to sticker it would not prove that the holder is legit.
I was thinking that even if it doesn't pass with cac, asking them to examine an old holder which they are pros on as much as anyone, they'd identify any problem with the holder as well. Probably more than once they've sent submitters notes on a rare holder.
Sorry. I’m wouldn’t assume JA has the same level of expertise in recognizing counterfeit holders as he does coins. Not realistic IMO.
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I'm no expert in counterfeit holders, though I was buying and selling coins in this era, so it looks really familiar and fine from the quick eye take. However, the coin simply doesn't look PL and they were SOOO fussy on PL's and DMPL's in those early days. This coin looks like a run-of-the-mill gem 1881-S in terms of mirrors.
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@davewesen said:
The first PCGS grading and counterfeit detection book had the diagnostics for rattler counterfeit holders. I am not sure I can find my copy of that book.
I hope you can find it. That would be enlightening.
@davewesen said:
The first PCGS grading and counterfeit detection book had the diagnostics for rattler counterfeit holders. I am not sure I can find my copy of that book.
I have that book and think it is one of the finest books on numismatics ever printed. I also have that book in-hand as I type this and my first edition has nothing about the counterfeit rattler holders. It has detailed sections on coin alterations and methods as well as counterfeit detection of coinage, but nothing about identifying counterfeit holders. My copy is the first edition that I have owned since it was published in 1997.
Did a search on Heritage for rattler. Looked at the reverse slab picture with their enlargement feature since the slab shot was shown for a large majority of these. On the 5th page (25 per page) I found this one that appears to match the OP on the reverse label.
Oh, I have stopped looking but link at bottom if anyone wants to continue.
@BStrauss3, do you have any input on information or references on counterfeit rattler holders? How did you know the reverse letter alignment is a diagnostic?
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There is a debate about the authenticity of the PCGS holder in the OP, primarily based on label characteristics.
Care to weigh in?
Note - I KNOW that it would be difficult for PCGS to fully authenticate a holder solely based on images. And, I am not asking you to. Notwithstanding, if anyone should be able to detect an obviously fake PCGS label from images, and enlighten the rest of us regarding the diagnostics, it would be PCGS.
As you mentioned, we are not able to verify the authenticity of a holder through images. You can always use our Cert Verify tool or our Museum of Holders pages as references to verify the coin information and the holder. Otherwise, you can visit a PCGS Authorized Dealer or have the coin sent in for a Holder check for further verification.
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Comments
I think it's real and paranoia has taken over the hobby.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I would lean that direction as well. There were known fake rattler slabs but it’s still unclear that this one would make sense. Yes someone could have switched coins but that seems like a lot of work even when the MS 65 slabbed coins were going for a lot more back in those times (and considering the fact that this coin is still a 65 or close to it now and then-I don’t know how successful of an operation someone could have run replacing 65s with cheaper coins that were almost 65s).
When did reholdering as a service start at PCGS?
Not certain I ever used it so don't recall when it began.
Someone with early paperwork, ads etc may have the info covering it.
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I was thinking that even if it doesn't pass with cac, asking them to examine an old holder which they are pros on as much as anyone, they'd identify any problem with the holder as well. Probably more than once they've sent submitters notes on a rare holder.
The first PCGS grading and counterfeit detection book had the diagnostics for rattler counterfeit holders. I am not sure I can find my copy of that book.
Sorry. I’m wouldn’t assume JA has the same level of expertise in recognizing counterfeit holders as he does coins. Not realistic IMO.
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Interesting thread.
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I'm no expert in counterfeit holders, though I was buying and selling coins in this era, so it looks really familiar and fine from the quick eye take. However, the coin simply doesn't look PL and they were SOOO fussy on PL's and DMPL's in those early days. This coin looks like a run-of-the-mill gem 1881-S in terms of mirrors.
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PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I'd agree with those comments as "cartwheel" dollars can't also be "prooflike". However maybe the pictures are not good enough to know?
I hope you can find it. That would be enlightening.
I have that book and think it is one of the finest books on numismatics ever printed. I also have that book in-hand as I type this and my first edition has nothing about the counterfeit rattler holders. It has detailed sections on coin alterations and methods as well as counterfeit detection of coinage, but nothing about identifying counterfeit holders. My copy is the first edition that I have owned since it was published in 1997.
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I must be remembering wrong - but thought I saw it there
here is an old thread describing them
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/120237/a-story-of-counterfeit-pcgs-holders
Did a search on Heritage for rattler. Looked at the reverse slab picture with their enlargement feature since the slab shot was shown for a large majority of these. On the 5th page (25 per page) I found this one that appears to match the OP on the reverse label.
Oh, I have stopped looking but link at bottom if anyone wants to continue.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/1924-20-ms63-pcgs-housed-in-a-first-generation-rattler-holder-mintage-4-323-500-pcgs-9177-/a/60400-54694.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#
The Heritage search link:
https://coins.ha.com/c/search/results.zx?term=rattler&si=2&archive_state=5327&sold_status=1526&dept=1909&sb=1&mode=archive&page=25~5&layout=list
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@BStrauss3, do you have any input on information or references on counterfeit rattler holders? How did you know the reverse letter alignment is a diagnostic?
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
@PCGS_Hy,
There is a debate about the authenticity of the PCGS holder in the OP, primarily based on label characteristics.
Care to weigh in?
Note - I KNOW that it would be difficult for PCGS to fully authenticate a holder solely based on images. And, I am not asking you to. Notwithstanding, if anyone should be able to detect an obviously fake PCGS label from images, and enlighten the rest of us regarding the diagnostics, it would be PCGS.
For additional 'reference/images', here are the links to the ended eBay listings:
~ https://www.ebay.com/itm/365949808392
~ https://www.ebay.com/itm/365951474102
Hi there!
As you mentioned, we are not able to verify the authenticity of a holder through images. You can always use our Cert Verify tool or our Museum of Holders pages as references to verify the coin information and the holder. Otherwise, you can visit a PCGS Authorized Dealer or have the coin sent in for a Holder check for further verification.
PCGS Customer Care Representative
Need Assistance?
Visit our Help & Support page.