Convinced PCGS Can't Grade "Type B Rev." FS-901 Washington Quarters...
Maxvan1
Posts: 66 ✭✭
I previously posted venting about PCGS labeling 1956 - 1964 25C FS-901 "Type B Rev." Washington Quarters as wheel marked. I've now had two or three of my best coins labeled as wheel marked, but I am almost convinced these "wheel marks" are actually original to the die state... Below are three coins from the same die.
First is a 1956 that was labeled wheel mark by PCGS. I'm not 100% certain what the graders saw (I wish they would indicate), but I believe it is the mark on the south east corner of the bust that run north/north west through the neck.
Okay, now compare that to this Early NCG 1956 Type B from the same die. I am using the distinct obverse fields and the reverse die crack through the Eagle's wing as die markers... Further note that the "wheel mark" could also be used as die marker.
And for good measure, here's a third from the same die. Again, the "wheel mark" is also present on this one...
Thoughts?
Further to the photos, I also note several years in the "Type B" Washington set have similar [die polish?] marks that could appear to be wheel marks, especially in earlier states... These are retired proof dies, so most if not all of the coins this series are struck on polished and worked dies (which is part of the appeal)...
I'm sure people here will disagree but I'm really skeptical of PCGS for this series...
Comments
finding wheel marks by forumites is always a challenge
the real question you need answered is how to get your coins straight graded without 10+ resubs each
I'm not certain where to go with this reply, so I will give you my thoughts as requested.
First, I don't know if the coins are or aren't from the same die pairs since the crack you are using on the reverse for diagnostics is in an area where they are commonly found in this series. Also, the resolution of the images precludes my determining they are from the same dies. Lastly, wheel marks can be devilishly difficult to see. NGC has a really good page on them and I have linked it below-
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4412/Wheel-Marks/
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Fair. I'm also not sure the reverse can be used because I think the same reverse was used for every pairing.
Somewhere out there I think there is a study of die pairing for year. I'm trying to find the link...
Your own photos are not good, so when you have a TrueView photo available, you should always use it. I don't see a wheel mark in the TrueView either, but at least it is a better photo.
A TPG could misidentify die polish or something else for a wheel mark, but since you also seem unsure of what a wheel mark is yourself, it could just as easily be you that is mistaken.
You are also incorrect in your assertion about the dies. "Type B" indicates that the coin has the proof reverse design, not that it was struck by an actual retired proof die.
Thanks for posting it. I just posted the comparisons.
Another fair point - some may not have actually been used as proof dies...
By first convincing the forumites, of course.
... Yeah I was wrong. The NGC is a different obverse die. The first two might be the same.
Is there only one die pair for this year? Somewhere I thought I saw a study on it...
ai makes mistakes
Yes. Deleted.
The wheel mark is the market on the forehead.. the arrow tip indention that is on the forehead of coin 1. It is not on the bust. You are looking in the wrong place and making assumptions off of flawed data.
The 1956 cropped photo 2 indentation at the temple this is the wheel mark. I am certain.
Yeah I do see that now.
@Relaxn
I have like fifty of these. Maybe I should photo and index them or something...
The wheel mark is in photo 1 and 2 of the coin labeled Type B. It is NOT present on the MS64 coin.
The mark that is on the head is just a ding... when you are looking for wheel marks you look for triangles and evidence of reading marks.
Informative post... no matter the outcome.
Good luck OP
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Could you possibly circle it for me?
die polish is usually on the high areas of the die, which mostly is the flat fields of the minted coin
wheel marks are usually over the high areas of the minted coin and harder to identify
imagine having an old rubber eraser and using it to make a hard swipe over an area of a coin
it is frustrating to have a gem worth a few hundred bucks but get a details grade
Wheel marks are caused by the wheel of a coin counting machine. You would be looking for a patch that looks like it has been rubbed in one direction by something just slightly abrasive. Almost like a small burnished area. These can be very difficult to find and sometimes only show in very specific angles of light. Use a flashlight on the coin at many different angles and see if you find anything.
Collector, occasional seller
Wheel marks can be on the inside of the rim, mine was all but invisible—story like this; grader was right.