Early PCGS Holder Discovered! Is It Real?
jacrispies
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This coin was offered online by a dealer and was pulled very quick. #14 certified by the serial number would make this a rare and expensive piece, considering some impressive recent auctions realized of similar items.
But, those who know their slabs, see this is a Generation 1.2 holder, not a white label crude dot matrix 1.0. Is this possible?
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
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Interesting... A very early re-holder perhaps?
Even not being a gen 1.0 white label I bet this would sell for big bucks.
Collector, occasional seller
Cool holder (though I’m no slab expert by any means).
Is this a possible $70k blast white 81-S?
Might try posting this question on the PCGS Rattlers FB group. Just make sure to state it’s not yours and tag it #NFS
As a comparison, here is the current earliest known graded coin, #17, sold by Great Collections August 2025 for ~$120,000.
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1850790/1881-S-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-MS-63-CAC-Green-Toned-OGH-1st-Gen--White-Rattler
A few days ago, #893 sold at Stack's Bowers for $22,800, also in the crude dot matrix generation holder.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1N3D6T/1926-indian-eagle-ms-63-pcgs-ogh-generation-10-rattler
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
The PCGS price guide has this at $350…so if you buy the coin and not the holder as so many advise here, you might get a good deal if they’d sell it at that…😉
Reholder makes sense. The cert # is kept the same, just put into the current holder. Great find.
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What a cool find. Yes, this looks to be a re-holder, in a later green label Gen 1.2 holder. Still very desirable and much more valuable than a regular Gen 1.2 Rattler.
This number is not on the current census. I will alert John at oldslabholders.
Wouldn't a reholder reuse the previous label? To print a new custom label seems like an unusual work assuming the previous label can be salvaged. Besides this, the reholder theory is a plausible theory. PCGS certainly reuses the old label today if possible for current reholders.
Is there any information when PL was initially used? I've seen many 1.2 rattlers with PL, not sure if it was available on 1.0 and 1.1 issues.
Thanks everyone.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
From what I know, when a coin is re-holdered, a new label is printed in the new format of the current holder. The serial number is kept, but not the label.
Interesting.
It's possible when/if this was a re-holdered coin, it would have been on a white ticket stub. Then it went to the green colored stub, but they didn't have the white ticket stubs anymore. So they would have used the old number with the newer green card stock. Easy enough. Back then they didn't have all the money in the world or knew how long they might stay in business, so they had to cut corners early. Easy to explain, but a rare mule indeed! Nice find!
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-announcement-about-prooflike
Disclaimer I am not a collector of plastic, but to me this is the equivalent of a messed with / doctored coin. Taking an original white label 108 holder, and getting the reholder into a common rattler slab (retaining the same cert) essentially made this one worthless. Nobody pays up just for cert numbers, they pay for the right plastic/label combos, and this one has been messed with.
While I agree with you overall, I believe there are more than a few people willing to pay a premium for this holder and there might be a small pool willing to pay a fair bit of a premium for the holder.
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Being this is the earliest known, if genuine, it would surely command a premium. Likely won't fetch more than the $120,000 of the original #17 though because of the questions that this holder poses.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Not sure what the big hype is for older holders. Can I assume there is not enough properly graded fresh material available for sale these days ?
No, you cannot anymore than you could assume that if a Mickey Mantle card sold for $1 million, there's not enough fresh material.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Loves me smoe 1909 rattlers
As I wrote in a different CU discussion:
"Some coin collectors look at old holders just as book collectors look at first editions. Yes, the words and story are the same in the first edition as in the many, many printings afterwards, but a first edition that has not been cracked out of its dust jacket and is still in fine condition, is worth far more than a pristine copy of a recent printing. A White Label Rattler is a PCGS first edition. Only a few were holdered that way and only a few of those survive."
Early holders are an amazing find, especially in pristine original condition. They are true collectors pieces, and true trophy coins. Only so many were made at the time; only so many exist now.
If early serial numbers don't matter then why are currency examples with low numbers worth so much more than those with higher numbers? They could be each printed with the same value, they could be each in the same state of condition, yet one with a 000000001 serial number is worth much, much more than one with a 918273645 serial number. The same holds true for older holders with low serial numbers.
Calling questionable.
One of the diagnostics of the counterfeit rattlers that caused PCGS to move to the two-piece and then the molded ring holder is on the reverse label, specifically, the alignment of the DI in GRADING with the I in SERVICE
OP's coin is off
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The G’s in the word grading are different in your 2 pictures. The OP label doesn’t have serifs in the G’s on their lower right. Different font.
Also the white line between the words extends further left in the OP label
Very interesting observations. Good detective work. Looking closely at the back of the label, and comparing it to Rattlers that I have, the P, C, S, G are not flush left with each other on the OP coin holder. They should be. Meaning the back (left) edges of the letters should butt up against a thin line drawn vertically north to south. Those on the OP coin do not.
What was the story with the counterfeit rattlers? Did someone switch out the coins or was it something else?
The cert on this one matches to what is the cert verify (1881-S in MS 65 PL) but the reverse diagnostics are off. Did someone make sure to match the coin in the counterfeit slab?
I saw this one on eBay too. Wondered why it was price so cheap especially from a "Big" eBay coin dealer
Yes a lower grade was used. Is that coin really PL ?
On "PCGS Museum of Coin Holders" for the Gen 1.0 holder, the serifs on the letters "C", "G" and "S" are at an angle on the reverse label. On the OP's coin, the serifs are vertical. I believe that this is another tell of a counterfeit holder.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/172592, PCGS w/CAC Key Date Coins, PCGS Grading Set Coins, Sample Slabs, Doily Labels.
Good catch BStrauss3.
I put together some viewable pictures of the items mentioned above and a couple others.
I used a HA auction for the holder / label:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1881-s-1-ms67-prooflike-pcgs-cac-housed-in-a-generation-12-rattler-holder-pcgs-population-91-6-ngc-census-127-12-cdn-1-400/a/60479-50094.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
The two labels are not aligned below. I used the left edge of the label for the lines. The others are parallel to it. I put one on the right end as a check for alignment. Placed the lines in the center of letters I, D and leg of N. Also one at the left edge of letters as bammbamm noted.
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Here are the two labels and the word PROFESSIONAL. It is easier to see the differences in the Font mentioned above by Ike1964 and also the sheriff's at the top and bottom on many of the letters. Also note the different shape of the O and the width of the N.
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This is the front label comparison. Font appears mostly correct. One thing I noticed is the placement of the grade MS65PL. I have two of these one is an MS64 and the other a MS64DMPL. The grade is centered (width) in the label so the MS64 starts to the right of the 1881-S like the OP. The MS64DMPL starts under the S of 1881-S. This is due to the centering of the grade. The OP label starts the MS65PL in the same location as an MS64 and then goes to the right and is not centered.
It will take a good photo but the HA photo shows the textured paper label. Both of mine as the same. The museum of holders it is barely detectable. The ones tradedollarnut posted this texture is not detectable but on the first one it is slightly. I don't know if all of the green label rattlers used this same paper or not.
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It doesn’t look PL from the photo but one has to remember that the standard for PL was actually lower back then compared to now.
Yes, all the Gen 1.2 Rattlers used a light green paper stock with horizontal ribs for the label. The Gen 1.0 and 1.1 white label Rattlers have a smooth paper stock.
Great educational thread. I remember the counterfeiting issue back in the day.
sold on eBay $595 on 10/28 and 10/29
If so the seller probably made the biggest mistake of his collectibles career.
There still seems to be some debate over the authenticity of the holder. I wouldn't jump to conclusions.
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Well, if it were to be sent to cac and it passed, that would settle the debate and the jury would no longer be out on it.
@logger7 I beg to differ, if the coin happens to sticker it would not prove that the holder is legit.
@2windy2fish What would the point of creating a counterfeit holder only to put a genuine and properly graded coin in it?
Whatever the case, I've scanned through many 100's of rattler photo's and looked at my own. I don't think it is a counterfeit as I've found 3 others and two are CAC'd. Unfortunately one of the CAC'd one has a sticker covering part of the back label but it clearly has the same O & I as the above and so do the other two I found.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/177134021309
https://www.ebay.com/itm/364641331605
https://www.ebay.com/itm/317480066739
This coin you found is from the same seller as the OP coin. For consistency sake, I don't think it helps that we found another example from the same seller. Perhaps they came from the same source. As a matter of fact, observe these similarities in the printing quality between your example found and the OP example:
If the coins were reholdered at any different time, surely the printing quality would not be exactly the same.
The coins did not sell, the seller cancelled both listings.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
That wouldn’t say anything about the holder other than that CAC agreed with the grade on the label.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@86Saab I’m not clear why you are asking me that question? I merely stated that a CAC sticker would not verify the authenticity of the holder….
The completed search shows green price if sold, black if unsold
https://ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=1881-s+ms65pl&_sacat=0&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_Complete=1
@jacrispies I'm not saying that I'm 100% sure that these are genuine but one explanation could be that the 1880-s & 1881-S from the same seller could have come from the same collector that may have sent those two in for reholder at the same time back in the day, that would explain the same printing pattern. Still having two CAC'd examples only helps the argument that these may be real.
@2windy2fish You made the statement "I beg to differ, if the coin happens to sticker it would not prove that the holder is legit." You may be correct, but my point wasn't to say you are necessarily wrong but was to ask in general, why would anyone counterfeit a PCGS holder only to encase a genuine and properly graded coin in it? It doesn't make sense to me but I suppose it could happen.
Not always. All non-available listings are green. Desktop version gives a reason when you click on the listing. The seller still has the coin in their possession despite listing it twice and canceling the advertisements.
As opposed to:
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
In theory, someone would counterfeit a holder (and encase a genuine, properly graded coin in it) if the counterfeit holder and label were worth the time and effort. In the case of a rare and valuable holder it could be quite profitable.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Or, one could counterfeit a holder and put an ‘almost good enough’ coin into it in 1989 that has turned into a premium gem for the grade due to gradeflation.
That is the only thing that would make sense in this case to me. I could see the original coin in the holder being nicer and so someone made the switch back in the day.
Let’s say for arguments sake, this is a real coin in a fake holder. This has got to be an auction house’s worst nightmare right? Think if one of them took this thing in and it brought stupid money, then the new owner found out down the line it’s no good. Reputations are on the line, and would heritage (for example) pony up a $100,000 buy back guarantee on fake plastic? Couldn’t heritage argue the coin is real, and the bidder was just an idiot for buying a $500 coin for $100,000?
So…another way to make extra money at the TPG’s will be ‘slab and cert verification/authenticity’ and with all the fakes this will be coming to a theater near you soon.
Actually, the same printer should have the same printing pattern. That's how law enforcement determines the origin of documents. But I'm not sure they are exactly the same. You highlighted the similarities, what about the differences? Look at the second "8"
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Maybe. But their reputation means a lot to them.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.