@Weather11am said:
For the purpose of submitting an insurance claim, is there anyway to see from an official mint site what the price of this was at a certain day?
Irrelevant. You need the transaction receipt.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Just received my first coin 2 days after it was shipped basic USPS postage. No door bell ring, just sitting at front door. HAHA
My only complaint is that my safe barely has room !!!
jmlanzaf: I believe you are correct and NJCoin is mistaken in stating that 2023-W High Reliefs have outperformed bullion. Let’s look at the FACTS:
The initial cost of the 2023-W American Liberty High Relief Gold Coin was $2,865.00 when it went on sale at Noon on August 10, 2023. On August 9, 2023, the closing spot price of gold was approximately $1,917.00 per ounce. Currently gold spot is $3,886.00. That’s about 103% increase in the spot gold price in less than 26 months!! In the exact same time period, the most recent open bid on a 2023-W HR with full packaging sold at $5,510.00 (obviously with significant sellers fees as well included in that price). For the coin to even match bullion’s 103% rise, the 2023 HR coins would need to net their owners $5,814.00 (if my math is right). Of course, some 70 grade pieces do achieve or exceed bullion levels, while 69 grade pieces can perform below fresh raw coin levels. But, as shown, I believe it is fair to say bullion has outperformed 2023-W HR coins.
The 103% rise in bullion in the past 26 months sure made me look like I actually knew what I was doing (and “bailed me out”) buying all the “hag” coins, year in and year out from 2007 onward. lol.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
jmlanzaf: I believe you are correct and NJCoin is mistaken in stating that 2023-W High Reliefs have outperformed bullion. Let’s look at the FACTS:
The initial cost of the 2023-W American Liberty High Relief Gold Coin was $2,865.00 when it went on sale at Noon on August 10, 2023. On August 9, 2023, the closing spot price of gold was approximately $1,917.00 per ounce. Currently gold spot is $3,886.00. That’s about 103% increase in the spot gold price in less than 26 months!! In the exact same time period, the most recent open bid on a 2023-W HR with full packaging sold at $5,510.00 (obviously with significant sellers fees as well included in that price). For the coin to even match bullion’s 103% rise, the 2023 HR coins would need to net their owners $5,814.00 (if my math is right). Of course, some 70 grade pieces do achieve or exceed bullion levels, while 69 grade pieces can perform below fresh raw coin levels. But, as shown, I believe it is fair to say bullion has outperformed 2023-W HR coins.
The 103% rise in bullion in the past 26 months sure made me look like I actually knew what I was doing (and “bailed me out”) buying all the “hag” coins, year in and year out from 2007 onward. lol.
Wondercoin.
I agree, of course. I'm just trying not to get baited into arguing the point with people who are unwilling to consider the facts.
Congratulations on predicting the rise in "popularity" of the spouse coins!
The run in metal prices has masked a lot of things. It's making me look brilliant did setting aside rolls of low grade common Barber coins.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
jmlanzaf: I believe you are correct and NJCoin is mistaken in stating that 2023-W High Reliefs have outperformed bullion. Let’s look at the FACTS:
The initial cost of the 2023-W American Liberty High Relief Gold Coin was $2,865.00 when it went on sale at Noon on August 10, 2023. On August 9, 2023, the closing spot price of gold was approximately $1,917.00 per ounce. Currently gold spot is $3,886.00. That’s about 103% increase in the spot gold price in less than 26 months!! In the exact same time period, the most recent open bid on a 2023-W HR with full packaging sold at $5,510.00 (obviously with significant sellers fees as well included in that price). For the coin to even match bullion’s 103% rise, the 2023 HR coins would need to net their owners $5,814.00 (if my math is right). Of course, some 70 grade pieces do achieve or exceed bullion levels, while 69 grade pieces can perform below fresh raw coin levels. But, as shown, I believe it is fair to say bullion has outperformed 2023-W HR coins.
The 103% rise in bullion in the past 26 months sure made me look like I actually knew what I was doing (and “bailed me out”) buying all the “hag” coins, year in and year out from 2007 onward. lol.
Wondercoin.
Fair enough, if you are going to require the return on the premium paid to meet or exceed the return on spot. That said, the fact remains, at least to my thinking, that if the premium increased along with the spot price, then the performance of the coin exceeded that of the underlying bullion.
In this case, they both roughly doubled. But, even if they didn't, the fact that the premium increased, even if only a little, would mean the HR coin outperformed the bullion.
Using your numbers, spot increased around $2,000, and the premium on a raw coin (no reason to get into slabbing costs and the actual value of a 69 vs a 70) is $1,900, up from $950 at release, using the $5,750 completed sale price on eBay on October 1st.
I stand by what I said. It's total nonsense to "believe it is fair to say bullion has outperformed 2023-W HR coins" when you choose to measure the performance of the HR coin from the inflated dealer resale price at sell out, rather than the original Mint price that anyone could have obtained a coin at, since the Mint did not pull the same crap in 2023 that it did this year in withholding coins from the public at release.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Instead of cherry picking measurement points to make a point, why not just stick to the price of the coin as issued, and the price of bullion on that day, and the price of a raw coin today, and the price of bullion today? Because that's all I'm looking at.
Simple point- if on August 10, 2023, one had a pile of cash and bought 2023-W HR coins with half the funds, while buying bullion with the other half of the funds, it appears the bullion pile would be worth more than the HR pile today. Plain and simple. At least to me.
It’s the very reason I am not pushing the button to buy more 2025-W HR coins right now. I can buy collectible American proof gold eagles these days right around spot or even 1% or 2% back of spot! I personally think that pile may outperform the 2025-W HR at today’s prices. I’ve been wrong before and I might be wrong again. Hundreds of other folks are buying up the 2025 HR coins as we speak. It will be fun to see how I performed on all my different gold buys a few years from now (including the recent gold Space coin, mintage 7 to the public, auctioned by the Mint).
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
Simple point- if on August 10, 2023, one had a pile of cash and bought 2023-W HR coins with half the funds, while buying bullion with the other half of the funds, it appears the bullion pile would be worth more than the HR pile today. Plain and simple. At least to me.
It’s the very reason I am not pushing the button to buy more 2025-W HR coins right now. I can buy collectible American proof gold eagles these days right around spot or even 1% or 2% back of spot! I personally think that pile may outperform the 2025-W HR at today’s prices. I’ve been wrong before and I might be wrong again. Hundreds of other folks are buying up the 2025 HR coins as we speak. It will be fun to see how I performed on all my different gold buys a few years from now (including the recent gold Space coin, mintage 7 to the public, auctioned by the Mint).
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Okay, but, with all due respect, you are wrong. August 10, 2023, is an arbitrary measurement point, because it was the date of release, and the coins were subject to a HHL. I believe that was lifted on August 11th, at which point you could have bought as many as you wanted at issue price. Or even gotten yourself a bulk discount. As I recall, the coins took a few weeks to sell out in both 2021 and 2023.
The coins have doubled from there. Just like bullion. Except, as you well know, an attractive coin with a very limited mintage offers some downside protection bullion does not. The $950 premium the Mint charged at the time was tough to swallow, but, in hindsight, it was not a terrible deal, given that the premium on that coin has gone up with the price of gold.
The flaw in your analysis is that you are measuring the raw coin from sellout. Not from release. They doubled almost overnight, while it took bullion two years to catch up. But bullion did not outperform since release of the coin.
All this said, you are smart to be wary about the 2025. The Mint played games with distribution, and the coins might suffer as a result. Had 10K coins been released to the public on August 21st, they likely would have all found homes in the first 24 hours. Instead, 4K were held back for bulk distribution, and the secondary market lost interest in the month before they were finally released.
What happens from here is anyone's guess, but people seeing other people get burned chasing them at inflated prices, only to see an additional 3K show up on the Mint's website, when bulk buyers decided the juice was no longer worth the squeeze, might very well suppress demand. TBD.
What happens from here is anyone's guess, but people seeing other people get burned chasing them at inflated prices, only to see an additional 3K show up on the Mint's website, when bulk buyers decided the juice was no longer worth the squeeze, might very well suppress demand. TBD.
I watched that “movie” already with the gold Kennedy’s in Chicago about 10 years ago. I was in both Denver and Chicago for that fiasco!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@NJCoin said:
What happens from here is anyone's guess, but people seeing other people get burned chasing them at inflated prices, only to see an additional 3K show up on the Mint's website, when bulk buyers decided the juice was no longer worth the squeeze, might very well suppress demand.
Who is getting burned chasing these at mint prices?
The upside is known, and the downside is not much.
The problem is the mint delayed the sellout so buyers had to cough up an extra $400 when they should have had them at a lower price point.
People that bought these for the beauty are probably not worried at all either way though.
@NJCoin said:
What happens from here is anyone's guess, but people seeing other people get burned chasing them at inflated prices, only to see an additional 3K show up on the Mint's website, when bulk buyers decided the juice was no longer worth the squeeze, might very well suppress demand.
Who is getting burned chasing these at mint prices?
The upside is known, and the downside is not much.
The problem is the mint delayed the sellout so buyers had to cough up an extra $400 when they should have had them at a lower price point.
People that bought these for the beauty are probably not worried at all either way though.
Anyone who bought from a dealer, raw or slabbed, between the time they went Unavailable at the Mint and the time they reappeared a few weeks later.
@NJCoin said:
Anyone who bought from a dealer, raw or slabbed, between the time they went Unavailable at the Mint and the time they reappeared a few weeks later.
Yes, those buyers aren't fans of the mint for this.
I think for these HR liberty coins, the key is to hold on to the PF70/PR70 first strikes / first day of issue label .. only.
Checking the the eBay prices for the 2021 Bronco, PCGS first strike of 2021 last sold at eBay for $12300 in September, NGC PF70 sold for 11K last week.
2023 First Strike is ~7K.
2025 First Strike will be similar to 2023.
I don't want to detract from this interesting conversation, but my first coin that just arrived has a flaw. A blackened area on the inner matte gold "bezel" inner edge (for lack of better words). Located between the numeral 25 and the engraver's initials. Marked up by a red line. The black flaw is at the head of the red line. My second coin arrives tomorrow. If it ain't perfecto, it gets the boot. This pictured coin is definitely a grade 69, so trizzle trazel, trizzel, trome... time for this one to go home.
Glad I ordered two, in fact, in the back of my mind, I calculated that at least I could choose the best one and return the baddie(s). I am posting this here for the edification of others. I don't think it is a "strike through" but it is not acceptable.
Thanks MsMorrisine Yep, whatever it actually is, it fails the sniff test. I already have the RMA and will drop off Tuesday after I have time to inspect coin #2.
I read that it is highly recommended to buy insurance. The Mint sent me a USPS priority Mail return label. This is just a postage label. But they recommend adding insurance and using the same shipping box.. Insurance might cost me $70 for $4700.
I was wondering whether sending it with added 'registered mail' in lieu of full value insurance would be good.
It travels from West Coast Calif. to Irvine Texas. A 2 day shipping trip.
I was considering placing it inside a med flat rate priority mail box and let it go without expensive full insurance.
Anybody have good tips for gold coin returns to the Mint??
Thanks !!!
By the way, the inner matte gold rim edge is crisp. It has a black stain or defect on it. Carbonization? However, at the smallest level, it might indeed be a slightly non-crisp edge. But the matte gold texture is full except for the black 'stain/defect.
Difficult to capture in a picture.
Question: ** Would a black blemish that might be something like 'carbonization' cause a grading service to drop such a coin down a grade? (70 to 69)??**
From AI off google:
So-called "carbonization" blemishes on mint proof gold coins are dark spots or surface imperfections that are not actually carbon. The issue is most often caused by contamination from other metals or environmental factors, especially in gold alloys. Any attempts to remove the blemishes risk damaging the coin's mirrored surfaces and significantly reducing its numismatic value.
Causes of "carbonization" on gold coins
Contaminants from alloys. Pure gold (24-karat) does not tarnish or rust. However, many gold coins are made with an alloy to increase hardness and durability.
Organic material. Microscopic organic materials like lint or dust can become fixed to the surface. As they break down, they can leave a spot.
Airborne chemicals. Airborne contaminants, such as sulfur, can also cause discoloration.
Surface flaws. Microscopic inclusions or imperfections on the planchet (the metal blank used to strike the coin) can become visible later as they react with the environment.
Risks of removing blemishes from proof coins
For valuable and collectible proof coins, professional numismatists almost universally advise against attempting to remove spots yourself.
Damage to the proof finish. Proof coins have a high-polish, mirrored finish that is extremely delicate. Abrasion from cleaning, even with a soft cloth, will leave minute scratches that are visible under magnification and destroy the coin's finish.
Reduced numismatic value. The primary value of a collectible proof coin lies in its condition. Any sign of cleaning, including hairlines or damaged surfaces, will lower its grade and drastically reduce its value.
Failed attempts. Many home cleaning methods, such as acetone soaks, are unlikely to remove blemishes that are bonded with the metal or embedded in the surface. More aggressive methods can cause irreversible damage.
What to do if your coin has a blemish
If the coin is highly valuable, the safest course of action is to consult a professional coin conservation service.
Professional conservation. Companies like Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS) use highly controlled processes, such as targeted solvents or ultrasonic cleaning, to stabilize or potentially reduce the appearance of contaminants without leaving cleaning marks.
Professional assessment. For collectible coins, it is best to have the coin graded and authenticated by a third-party grading service, such as NGC or PCGS. They can assess the spot and determine the coin's grade with the blemish present.
Accept it. For bullion coins, the blemishes do not affect the gold's intrinsic metal value. For collectible coins, some collectors may find the small imperfection acceptable, especially if the coin is rare.
@triplelake said:
I think for these HR liberty coins, the key is to hold on to the PF70/PR70 first strikes / first day of issue label .. only.
Checking the the eBay prices for the 2021 Bronco, PCGS first strike of 2021 last sold at eBay for $12300 in September, NGC PF70 sold for 11K last week.
2023 First Strike is ~7K.
2025 First Strike will be similar to 2023.
Or it won't
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Yes, a small, embedded steel or iron impurity will cause a 24-karat gold proof coin to be graded lower by professional services like the Numismatic Guaranty Company (NGC) and the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS).
Even though the flaw originated at the mint, it is still considered a surface imperfection that detracts from the coin's aesthetic perfection, which is the primary criterion for proof coin grading.
Grading impact on proof coins
For a proof coin to achieve a perfect Proof-70 (PF70) grade, it must have no visible imperfections under 5x magnification. Any visible spot or surface defect, even a tiny one, will prevent the coin from reaching this highest grade.
• Detracts from eye appeal: An embedded black impurity in the field of a mirror-finish proof coin is visually distracting and lowers its eye appeal. Professional grading standards, especially for high-end coins, weigh eye appeal heavily.
• Preventing a perfect grade: An impurity will likely cause the coin to be graded a Proof-69 (PF69) or lower. A PF69 grade indicates a "nearly perfect" coin with minuscule imperfections. The presence of an obvious spot, however, could result in an even lower grade if it is particularly large or distracting.
• Details grade: In severe cases, or if the impurity has led to corrosion, the coin may not receive a standard numerical grade at all. Instead, it could be given a "Details Grade" (e.g., "Proof-64, Environmental Damage").
Mint-made vs. post-mint damage
While some minor mint-made defects are often judged less harshly than post-mint damage, a black, embedded metal impurity is considered a significant flaw in the context of a proof coin.
• For example, minor die scratches might have little to no effect on the grade, but an embedded impurity that disrupts the coin's surface luster and appearance is more detrimental.
• The fact that a coin was made with a flaw at the mint does not grant it an exemption from being marked down for that imperfection. Graders evaluate the coin as it exists, regardless of the source of the defect.
@goldbuffalo said:
Always use the brown security tape, whether you send registered or not.
I returned one with a defect. Did not use the mint supplied free label. Rather sent registered mail insured. Cost me $50. Better than a loss of $4600 if it didn’t arrive safely. Return must be initiated within 7 days…needn’t arrive within 7 days.
2025 coin price is lower because any buyer can still buy it directly from USMint. When it is sold out on USMint website, the market price of 2025 coin will start to increase.
2025 coin price is lower because any buyer can still buy it directly from USMint. When it is sold out on USMint website, the market price of 2025 coin will start to increase.
Exactly. First strike / First Day of Issue will keep going up in price, because new orders is no longer possible to get this designation.
I’ve bought 3 from PURE with no problems. However the first one that I ordered was at $4474 was cancelled by the seller. He or she claimed that their U.S. Mint order had fallen through. It is more likely that the rising price of gold and the higher selling price on PURE at that time caused him to reneg.
PURE told me today that their dealer order for the coin is still on backorder. So, I still wait for that coin at the agreed upon price. I believe that they will fulfill it but it has not been a smooth transaction.
2025 coin price is lower because any buyer can still buy it directly from USMint. When it is sold out on USMint website, the market price of 2025 coin will start to increase.
Or not...
If it's so popular that the mintage is insufficient, why is it not sold out?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
I’ve bought 3 from PURE with no problems. However the first one that I ordered was at $4474 was cancelled by the seller. He or she claimed that their U.S. Mint order had fallen through. It is more likely that the rising price of gold and the higher selling price on PURE at that time caused him to reneg.
PURE told me today that their dealer order for the coin is still on backorder. So, I still wait for that coin at the agreed upon price. I believe that they will fulfill it but it has not been a smooth transaction.
So much for PURE being a reputable place for retail to interact with dealers. If PURE isn't going to vet everyone who uses its platform, and/or guarantee performance, it is honestly no better than eBay.
2025 coin price is lower because any buyer can still buy it directly from USMint. When it is sold out on USMint website, the market price of 2025 coin will start to increase.
Or not...
If it's so popular that the mintage is insufficient, why is it not sold out?
I think you probably know why. I can think of 4,000 reasons off the top of my head that it did not sell out on August 21st.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
I’ve bought 3 from PURE with no problems. However the first one that I ordered was at $4474 was cancelled by the seller. He or she claimed that their U.S. Mint order had fallen through. It is more likely that the rising price of gold and the higher selling price on PURE at that time caused him to reneg.
PURE told me today that their dealer order for the coin is still on backorder. So, I still wait for that coin at the agreed upon price. I believe that they will fulfill it but it has not been a smooth transaction.
i've been told you buy on pure and you buy from pure
sounds like a pile of junk with some of the same buy/sell issues as ebay
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
I’ve bought 3 from PURE with no problems. However the first one that I ordered was at $4474 was cancelled by the seller. He or she claimed that their U.S. Mint order had fallen through. It is more likely that the rising price of gold and the higher selling price on PURE at that time caused him to reneg.
PURE told me today that their dealer order for the coin is still on backorder. So, I still wait for that coin at the agreed upon price. I believe that they will fulfill it but it has not been a smooth transaction.
i've been told you buy on pure and you buy from pure
sounds like a pile of junk with some of the same buy/sell issues as ebay
what good is pure now?
Unlike ebay, there is a middleman who acts as an escrow agent who will ensure that you get what you buy with no fakes and when you don't get the item, you don't lose your money.
Comments
Wow. The 2023's bid is only $100 behind:
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1943543/2023-W-Gold-100-American-Liberty-High-Relief-First-Strike-PCGS-Proof-70-DCAM
I believe 2025 will do better than 2023.
For the purpose of submitting an insurance claim, is there anyway to see from an official mint site what the price of this was at a certain day?
Irrelevant. You need the transaction receipt.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
possibly it is current value
it may be calculable given the grid, date and historical gold price
the order should be in your account
the order should be in your email
I want how much cost it at the time I mailed it. Doesn’t sound like it’s nicely available.
ats 838
61 sold since yesterday.
Insurance will likely not allow that value.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
punt
TH=he gold bubble will burst and this coin will go down in flames. Buyer beware.
What about if gold goes up to $10k?
Just received my first coin 2 days after it was shipped basic USPS postage. No door bell ring, just sitting at front door. HAHA
My only complaint is that my safe barely has room !!!
Then you are still better off with AGEs
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Actually, you don't know that. Thus far, both the 2021 and 2023s have outperformed bullion, even with the meteoric rise in spot gold.
.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
jmlanzaf: I believe you are correct and NJCoin is mistaken in stating that 2023-W High Reliefs have outperformed bullion. Let’s look at the FACTS:
The initial cost of the 2023-W American Liberty High Relief Gold Coin was $2,865.00 when it went on sale at Noon on August 10, 2023. On August 9, 2023, the closing spot price of gold was approximately $1,917.00 per ounce. Currently gold spot is $3,886.00. That’s about 103% increase in the spot gold price in less than 26 months!! In the exact same time period, the most recent open bid on a 2023-W HR with full packaging sold at $5,510.00 (obviously with significant sellers fees as well included in that price). For the coin to even match bullion’s 103% rise, the 2023 HR coins would need to net their owners $5,814.00 (if my math is right). Of course, some 70 grade pieces do achieve or exceed bullion levels, while 69 grade pieces can perform below fresh raw coin levels. But, as shown, I believe it is fair to say bullion has outperformed 2023-W HR coins.
The 103% rise in bullion in the past 26 months sure made me look like I actually knew what I was doing (and “bailed me out”) buying all the “hag” coins, year in and year out from 2007 onward. lol.
Wondercoin.
I agree, of course. I'm just trying not to get baited into arguing the point with people who are unwilling to consider the facts.
Congratulations on predicting the rise in "popularity" of the spouse coins!
The run in metal prices has masked a lot of things. It's making me look brilliant did setting aside rolls of low grade common Barber coins.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Fair enough, if you are going to require the return on the premium paid to meet or exceed the return on spot. That said, the fact remains, at least to my thinking, that if the premium increased along with the spot price, then the performance of the coin exceeded that of the underlying bullion.
In this case, they both roughly doubled. But, even if they didn't, the fact that the premium increased, even if only a little, would mean the HR coin outperformed the bullion.
Using your numbers, spot increased around $2,000, and the premium on a raw coin (no reason to get into slabbing costs and the actual value of a 69 vs a 70) is $1,900, up from $950 at release, using the $5,750 completed sale price on eBay on October 1st.
I stand by what I said. It's total nonsense to "believe it is fair to say bullion has outperformed 2023-W HR coins" when you choose to measure the performance of the HR coin from the inflated dealer resale price at sell out, rather than the original Mint price that anyone could have obtained a coin at, since the Mint did not pull the same crap in 2023 that it did this year in withholding coins from the public at release.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Instead of cherry picking measurement points to make a point, why not just stick to the price of the coin as issued, and the price of bullion on that day, and the price of a raw coin today, and the price of bullion today? Because that's all I'm looking at.
Simple point- if on August 10, 2023, one had a pile of cash and bought 2023-W HR coins with half the funds, while buying bullion with the other half of the funds, it appears the bullion pile would be worth more than the HR pile today. Plain and simple. At least to me.
It’s the very reason I am not pushing the button to buy more 2025-W HR coins right now. I can buy collectible American proof gold eagles these days right around spot or even 1% or 2% back of spot! I personally think that pile may outperform the 2025-W HR at today’s prices. I’ve been wrong before and I might be wrong again. Hundreds of other folks are buying up the 2025 HR coins as we speak. It will be fun to see how I performed on all my different gold buys a few years from now (including the recent gold Space coin, mintage 7 to the public, auctioned by the Mint).
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Okay, but, with all due respect, you are wrong. August 10, 2023, is an arbitrary measurement point, because it was the date of release, and the coins were subject to a HHL. I believe that was lifted on August 11th, at which point you could have bought as many as you wanted at issue price. Or even gotten yourself a bulk discount. As I recall, the coins took a few weeks to sell out in both 2021 and 2023.
The coins have doubled from there. Just like bullion. Except, as you well know, an attractive coin with a very limited mintage offers some downside protection bullion does not. The $950 premium the Mint charged at the time was tough to swallow, but, in hindsight, it was not a terrible deal, given that the premium on that coin has gone up with the price of gold.
The flaw in your analysis is that you are measuring the raw coin from sellout. Not from release. They doubled almost overnight, while it took bullion two years to catch up. But bullion did not outperform since release of the coin.
All this said, you are smart to be wary about the 2025. The Mint played games with distribution, and the coins might suffer as a result. Had 10K coins been released to the public on August 21st, they likely would have all found homes in the first 24 hours. Instead, 4K were held back for bulk distribution, and the secondary market lost interest in the month before they were finally released.
What happens from here is anyone's guess, but people seeing other people get burned chasing them at inflated prices, only to see an additional 3K show up on the Mint's website, when bulk buyers decided the juice was no longer worth the squeeze, might very well suppress demand. TBD.
What happens from here is anyone's guess, but people seeing other people get burned chasing them at inflated prices, only to see an additional 3K show up on the Mint's website, when bulk buyers decided the juice was no longer worth the squeeze, might very well suppress demand. TBD.
I watched that “movie” already with the gold Kennedy’s in Chicago about 10 years ago. I was in both Denver and Chicago for that fiasco!
Wondercoin
Who is getting burned chasing these at mint prices?
The upside is known, and the downside is not much.
The problem is the mint delayed the sellout so buyers had to cough up an extra $400 when they should have had them at a lower price point.
People that bought these for the beauty are probably not worried at all either way though.
This thread, as many before, has gone over/under/sideways/down (my apologies to the Yardbirds):
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
Anyone who bought from a dealer, raw or slabbed, between the time they went Unavailable at the Mint and the time they reappeared a few weeks later.
Yes, those buyers aren't fans of the mint for this.
ats 765
76 sold since yesterday.
I think for these HR liberty coins, the key is to hold on to the PF70/PR70 first strikes / first day of issue label .. only.
Checking the the eBay prices for the 2021 Bronco, PCGS first strike of 2021 last sold at eBay for $12300 in September, NGC PF70 sold for 11K last week.
2023 First Strike is ~7K.
2025 First Strike will be similar to 2023.
When you don't know what you're talking about, it's hard to know when you're finished.” - Tommy Smothers
I don't want to detract from this interesting conversation, but my first coin that just arrived has a flaw. A blackened area on the inner matte gold "bezel" inner edge (for lack of better words). Located between the numeral 25 and the engraver's initials. Marked up by a red line. The black flaw is at the head of the red line. My second coin arrives tomorrow. If it ain't perfecto, it gets the boot. This pictured coin is definitely a grade 69, so trizzle trazel, trizzel, trome... time for this one to go home.
Glad I ordered two, in fact, in the back of my mind, I calculated that at least I could choose the best one and return the baddie(s). I am posting this here for the edification of others. I don't think it is a "strike through" but it is not acceptable.
if it bothers you send it back
the 09 uhr had a good portion with strike throughs on the rim
this could be one. it could be an area without frosing due to a non-retained strike through, or perhaps the rim didn't get fully struck
the experienced here know these are possibilities. fortunately yours is the only one noted
Thanks MsMorrisine Yep, whatever it actually is, it fails the sniff test. I already have the RMA and will drop off Tuesday after I have time to inspect coin #2.
I read that it is highly recommended to buy insurance. The Mint sent me a USPS priority Mail return label. This is just a postage label. But they recommend adding insurance and using the same shipping box.. Insurance might cost me $70 for $4700.
I was wondering whether sending it with added 'registered mail' in lieu of full value insurance would be good.
It travels from West Coast Calif. to Irvine Texas. A 2 day shipping trip.
I was considering placing it inside a med flat rate priority mail box and let it go without expensive full insurance.
Anybody have good tips for gold coin returns to the Mint??
Thanks !!!
By the way, the inner matte gold rim edge is crisp. It has a black stain or defect on it. Carbonization? However, at the smallest level, it might indeed be a slightly non-crisp edge. But the matte gold texture is full except for the black 'stain/defect.
Difficult to capture in a picture.
Question: ** Would a black blemish that might be something like 'carbonization' cause a grading service to drop such a coin down a grade? (70 to 69)??**
From AI off google:
So-called "carbonization" blemishes on mint proof gold coins are dark spots or surface imperfections that are not actually carbon. The issue is most often caused by contamination from other metals or environmental factors, especially in gold alloys. Any attempts to remove the blemishes risk damaging the coin's mirrored surfaces and significantly reducing its numismatic value.
Causes of "carbonization" on gold coins
Contaminants from alloys. Pure gold (24-karat) does not tarnish or rust. However, many gold coins are made with an alloy to increase hardness and durability.
Organic material. Microscopic organic materials like lint or dust can become fixed to the surface. As they break down, they can leave a spot.
Airborne chemicals. Airborne contaminants, such as sulfur, can also cause discoloration.
Surface flaws. Microscopic inclusions or imperfections on the planchet (the metal blank used to strike the coin) can become visible later as they react with the environment.
Risks of removing blemishes from proof coins
For valuable and collectible proof coins, professional numismatists almost universally advise against attempting to remove spots yourself.
Damage to the proof finish. Proof coins have a high-polish, mirrored finish that is extremely delicate. Abrasion from cleaning, even with a soft cloth, will leave minute scratches that are visible under magnification and destroy the coin's finish.
Reduced numismatic value. The primary value of a collectible proof coin lies in its condition. Any sign of cleaning, including hairlines or damaged surfaces, will lower its grade and drastically reduce its value.
Failed attempts. Many home cleaning methods, such as acetone soaks, are unlikely to remove blemishes that are bonded with the metal or embedded in the surface. More aggressive methods can cause irreversible damage.
What to do if your coin has a blemish
If the coin is highly valuable, the safest course of action is to consult a professional coin conservation service.
Professional conservation. Companies like Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS) use highly controlled processes, such as targeted solvents or ultrasonic cleaning, to stabilize or potentially reduce the appearance of contaminants without leaving cleaning marks.
Professional assessment. For collectible coins, it is best to have the coin graded and authenticated by a third-party grading service, such as NGC or PCGS. They can assess the spot and determine the coin's grade with the blemish present.
Accept it. For bullion coins, the blemishes do not affect the gold's intrinsic metal value. For collectible coins, some collectors may find the small imperfection acceptable, especially if the coin is rare.
Or it won't
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Yes, a small, embedded steel or iron impurity will cause a 24-karat gold proof coin to be graded lower by professional services like the Numismatic Guaranty Company (NGC) and the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS).
Even though the flaw originated at the mint, it is still considered a surface imperfection that detracts from the coin's aesthetic perfection, which is the primary criterion for proof coin grading.
Grading impact on proof coins
For a proof coin to achieve a perfect Proof-70 (PF70) grade, it must have no visible imperfections under 5x magnification. Any visible spot or surface defect, even a tiny one, will prevent the coin from reaching this highest grade.
• Detracts from eye appeal: An embedded black impurity in the field of a mirror-finish proof coin is visually distracting and lowers its eye appeal. Professional grading standards, especially for high-end coins, weigh eye appeal heavily.
• Preventing a perfect grade: An impurity will likely cause the coin to be graded a Proof-69 (PF69) or lower. A PF69 grade indicates a "nearly perfect" coin with minuscule imperfections. The presence of an obvious spot, however, could result in an even lower grade if it is particularly large or distracting.
• Details grade: In severe cases, or if the impurity has led to corrosion, the coin may not receive a standard numerical grade at all. Instead, it could be given a "Details Grade" (e.g., "Proof-64, Environmental Damage").
Mint-made vs. post-mint damage
While some minor mint-made defects are often judged less harshly than post-mint damage, a black, embedded metal impurity is considered a significant flaw in the context of a proof coin.
• For example, minor die scratches might have little to no effect on the grade, but an embedded impurity that disrupts the coin's surface luster and appearance is more detrimental.
• The fact that a coin was made with a flaw at the mint does not grant it an exemption from being marked down for that imperfection. Graders evaluate the coin as it exists, regardless of the source of the defect.
i used private insurance instead of po insurance
there is no way to send something and make it safe enough not to carry insurance
Always use the brown security tape, whether you send registered or not.
with fiber reinforcement
Both ended last night.
.
2025 coin price is lower because any buyer can still buy it directly from USMint. When it is sold out on USMint website, the market price of 2025 coin will start to increase.
@MsMorrisine , could you please tell us the ATS as of now?
579
Exactly. First strike / First Day of Issue will keep going up in price, because new orders is no longer possible to get this designation.
I’ve bought 3 from PURE with no problems. However the first one that I ordered was at $4474 was cancelled by the seller. He or she claimed that their U.S. Mint order had fallen through. It is more likely that the rising price of gold and the higher selling price on PURE at that time caused him to reneg.
PURE told me today that their dealer order for the coin is still on backorder. So, I still wait for that coin at the agreed upon price. I believe that they will fulfill it but it has not been a smooth transaction.
Or not...
If it's so popular that the mintage is insufficient, why is it not sold out?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
it has SOLD OUT , 3 times lol and it will sell out for the fourth time eventually
So much for PURE being a reputable place for retail to interact with dealers. If PURE isn't going to vet everyone who uses its platform, and/or guarantee performance, it is honestly no better than eBay.
I think you probably know why. I can think of 4,000 reasons off the top of my head that it did not sell out on August 21st.
i've been told you buy on pure and you buy from pure
sounds like a pile of junk with some of the same buy/sell issues as ebay
what good is pure now?
Unlike ebay, there is a middleman who acts as an escrow agent who will ensure that you get what you buy with no fakes and when you don't get the item, you don't lose your money.
http://ProofCollection.Net