“if you missed the chance to buy from the US Mint, you can a buy a sunflower w/Box & COA from APMEX for $6,295!”
A dealer the other day was offering up to 2,000 fresh coins for $50 back of current US Mint sales price. You want to “play with the big boys” - buy 500-1,000 coins right now UNDER current Mint issue price and have some fun. Money talks… this is the real market level. I personally had 0 interest buying the coins this week slightly back of US Mint current sales level. I might have felt differently at original Mint asking price on Day 1. For me- Too many other opportunities right now to get a better return with the dough.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
“if you missed the chance to buy from the US Mint, you can a buy a sunflower w/Box & COA from APMEX for $6,295!”
A dealer the other day was offering up to 2,000 fresh coins for $50 back of current US Mint sales price. You want to “play with the big boys” - buy 500-1,000 coins right now UNDER current Mint issue price and have some fun. Money talks… this is the real market level. I personally had 0 interest buying the coins this week slightly back of US Mint current sales level. I might have felt differently at original Mint asking price on Day 1. For me- Too many other opportunities right now to get a better return with the dough.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
But...but...but...dealer shenanigans, i'm told, make it impossible to "play with a big boys". There are conspiracies everywhere.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
“if you missed the chance to buy from the US Mint, you can a buy a sunflower w/Box & COA from APMEX for $6,295!”
A dealer the other day was offering up to 2,000 fresh coins for $50 back of current US Mint sales price. You want to “play with the big boys” - buy 500-1,000 coins right now UNDER current Mint issue price and have some fun. Money talks… this is the real market level. I personally had 0 interest buying the coins this week slightly back of US Mint current sales level. I might have felt differently at original Mint asking price on Day 1. For me- Too many other opportunities right now to get a better return with the dough.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
But...but...but...dealer shenanigans, i'm told, make it impossible to "play with a big boys". There are conspiracies everywhere.
Yup. And I wouldn't have too much trouble whipping up another one here.
The additional 4K were dumped by the Mint exactly one week ago. Did someone actually grab them just to flip them to other dealers for $50 back of current US Mint price, which I think is unchanged from the week before? Or are these not "fresh coins" at all, but rather, an accumulation of several dealers' rejects? Or are they pure fiction?
Sorry, and I know @wondercoin is a beloved and reputable member here, but I'm not buying that someone legit grabbed 17% of the total mintage that sold out pretty much instantly, representing literally a full half of last week's release, just to dump them less than one week later for $50 back of where they were snapped up a week ago, while they can still easily be retailed on eBay for $600 more, and close to $1,000 above that in a 70.
So, all stories about Big Boys getting privileges we don't enjoy because they take great risks with great sums of money aside, I'm calling BS on half the "fresh coins" that were gobbled up last week being wholesaled at a discount less than a week later, with no takers. The coins @wondercoin describes are either not "fresh" or don't even exist.
Because they'd be returned to the Mint at no loss this quickly if this was truly a case of buyer's remorse because dealers see the retail market for these fading. We've seen it before, where thousands upon thousands of coins are mysteriously subtracted from a sales report.
This story is just meant to shut us up, because we don't understand that Big Boys are American heroes who take great risks, and therefore deserve great rewards when they disproportionately rip guaranteed flips away from retail buyers. And now there is a myth that someone is stuck, a week after they grabbed them, when all indications are that these will be winners.
Basically, an anti-conspiracy theory, accepted without question by the one person here who seemingly questions everything. 🤣
NjCoin: You are in very treacherous waters suggesting what I post here isn’t accurate. You truly lose All credibility. I might suggest you consider a different angle for your continued attacks on the Mint armed with (and embracing) the information I provided. 😉
Wondercoin.
Edited to add- the offering as of last night: (2000 COINS TOTAL @ $4550)...US MINT COST IS $4615 CURRENTLY THIS IS $65 UNDER MINT COST
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The mint must have new employees that aren't handling sales the way it used to be done. That is probably the most likely explanation. The mint needs to understand that all the buyers show up at release time, and that is the time to sell all the coins. Not partial sales, and dribbles of coins later.
12k is not a lot of coins compared to SE sales.
Was the mint worried that they could only sell 8k of these? Maybe
That could explain why they only took 8k and then said "woa, strike all of them"
@wondercoin said:
NjCoin: You are in very treacherous waters suggesting what I post here isn’t accurate. You truly lose All credibility. I might suggest you consider a different angle for your continued attacks on the Mint armed with (and embracing) the information I provided. 😉
Wondercoin.
Edited to add- the offering as of last night: (2000 COINS TOTAL @ $4550)...US MINT COST IS $4615 CURRENTLY THIS IS $65 UNDER MINT COST
I stand by what I said. I don't believe anyone tied up $9.2 million just to get buyer's remorse and to try to dump them at a $130,000 loss after a week.
Or, given where retail is for raw and 70s, that they wouldn't be snapped up almost immediately by other dealers. These are sold out at the Mint, and likely would be again if the 2K were returned.
No reason for anyone to take a $130K haircut to get out of them. Maybe they are counterfeit.
I honestly don't care what you say about my credibility. Something does not sound right about this, and you are responsible for spreading it here.
@HalfDime said:
The mint must have new employees that aren't handling sales the way it used to be done. That is probably the most likely explanation. The mint needs to understand that all the buyers show up at release time, and that is the time to sell all the coins. Not partial sales, and dribbles of coins later.
12k is not a lot of coins compared to SE sales.
Was the mint worried that they could only sell 8k of these? Maybe
That could explain why they only took 8k and then said "woa, strike all of them"
Again, that has happened many times in the past. The next step after sell out is accepting Back Orders. Not pausing sales for a few weeks, and then resuming them without warning. Whatever that is, it is not SOP.
@NJCoin said:
Again, that has happened many times in the past. The next step after sell out is accepting Back Orders. Not pausing sales for a few weeks, and then resuming them without warning. Whatever that is, it is not SOP.
They didn't take backorders on the 4k for the last amount. It went blank.
@wondercoin said:
NjCoin- use your brain. I can theorize numerous situations where this makes perfect sense.
By the way, this lot has been available for around 2 days now.
Wondercoin
Such as? With a quick sell out? Where an additional 4K coins just dropped a week ago, they are still sold out, and they are still selling for significant premiums to the Mint price at retail?
Is the seller someone known and reputable? The fact that it has been available with no takers for 2 days says something to me, and not that the $5250 completed eBay sale today by a reputable seller with 100% positive feedback on over 6K transactions is fiction.
I have also theorized a situation where it makes sense. The coins are not fresh, and might not even be real. Or genuine.
Not that someone with the financial wherewithal to tie up over $9 million in them panicked after a few days, and can't either return them or flip them quietly, at no loss, without you coming here to tell us how dealers are heroes who take huge financial risks on slam dunk flips, and so deserve to take coins in quantity from retail buyers. I actually hope someone got stuck trying to game this, but I seriously doubt that happened here.
@NJCoin said:
Again, that has happened many times in the past. The next step after sell out is accepting Back Orders. Not pausing sales for a few weeks, and then resuming them without warning. Whatever that is, it is not SOP.
They didn't take backorders on the 4k for the last amount. It went blank.
I know. What I'm saying is that SOP would be, if they truly only initially made 8K because they questioned demand, they would have placed the remaining 4K on Back Order on the day of release, after the 3 hour sell out of the initial 8K, with a HHL of 1.
They didn't. They just quietly made them and placed them on sale a few weeks later. With no HHL.
Not SOP. Although admittedly, nowadays, with all the games and lack of transparency, there is no more SOP.
@NJCoin said:
Not SOP. Although admittedly, nowadays, with all the games and lack of transparency, there is no more SOP.
The mint could have released the last 4k with a HHL of 1 and didn't. They would probably say they should have. It happens. We can't have it both ways, just like they put in the privy coins among the flowing hair silver medals. They could have sold those for a lot more alone than they got. It was a gift to buyers and bulk buyers that followed the mint and took advantage of how they released them. It's the same here.
Some here got multiples of this coin and are happy they have them That is what matters in the end, not those that missed out. Next year there will be many coins due to the 250th anniversary, and I would bet it will be the same confusion with those.
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
@wondercoin said:
Is the seller someone known and reputable?
I certainly think so. And the physical delivery of the coins is about as safe as it could ever be orchestrated by any of us.
Wondercoin
Okay. So maybe the account was hacked. Otherwise, what are your "numerous situations where this makes perfect sense" for someone who literally just took down a full half of what the Mint put up for sale a week ago? Denying hundreds or thousands of people the opportunity to buy them one at a time.
Again, I would simply love, love, love for someone to actually be stuck if that actually happened, with the Mint not accepting returns. I just would find that very, very difficult to believe, given how the Mint could easily resell them AND take care of a Big Boy, if this is actually the case.
And, if this seller is just testing the water before returning them to the Mint, then whatever point you were trying to make is false, and these guys ARE actually playing a game that is rigged against retail, where they cannot lose, even when they bet wrong.
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I didn’t know I was trying to make any point here. I simply reported on an interesting offering that I thought some board members might also find interesting. Obviously NJCoin does not find this fact interesting at all. That’s ok too.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
whatever point you were trying to make is false,
I didn’t know I was trying to make any point here. I simply reported on an interesting offering that I thought some board members might also find interesting. Obviously NJCoin does not find this fact interesting at all. That’s ok too.
Wondercoin
He doesn't find many facts interesting, unless they support or can be twisted to support his most recent wild conjecture. However, he may have hit a new low by questioning YOUR credibility.
Smh...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
So, you're saying that PURE posts fake sales to move the market...
[End sarcasm]
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
Is the seller someone known and reputable?
I certainly think so. And the physical delivery of the coins is about as safe as it could ever be orchestrated by any of us.
Wondercoin
Okay. So maybe the account was hacked. Otherwise, what are your "numerous situations where this makes perfect sense" for someone who literally just took down a full half of what the Mint put up for sale a week ago? Denying hundreds or thousands of people the opportunity to buy them one at a time.
Again, I would simply love, love, love for someone to actually be stuck if that actually happened, with the Mint not accepting returns. I just would find that very, very difficult to believe, given how the Mint could easily resell them AND take care of a Big Boy, if this is actually the case.
And, if this seller is just testing the water before returning them to the Mint, then whatever point you were trying to make is false, and these guys ARE actually playing a game that is rigged against retail, where they cannot lose, even when they bet wrong.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
FWIW if you charged 2000 coins at $4500 each with 3% cashback, you would get $135 per coin in cash. If you then sold them at $4450 you would still net $85 per coin which is $170,000 profit for passing it through.
And before you ask, it may well be better to do that than ship 2000 coins separately at, for example, $4600 each.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
FWIW if you charged 2000 coins at $4500 each with 3% cashback, you would get $135 per coin in cash. If you then sold them at $4450 you would still net $85 per coin which is $170,000 profit for passing it through.
And before you ask, it may well be better to do that than ship 2000 coins separately at, for example, $4600 each.
@jmlanzaf said:
FWIW if you charged 2000 coins at $4500 each with 3% cashback, you would get $135 per coin in cash. If you then sold them at $4450 you would still net $85 per coin which is $170,000 profit for passing it through.
And before you ask, it may well be better to do that than ship 2000 coins separately at, for example, $4600 each.
For some reason I doubt that was the plan here.
I don't know. But it is possible if it's part of a bigger plan. You increase your purchases by $9 million which gets/keeps you in "the big boys" while making $170,000.
You also could be a bulk purchaser with the 5% discount which is $225 per coin.
It is not, under any of those 3 scenarios (A, B, and A+B), the seller is not losing any money whatsoever, unlike the Pope's pronouncement.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
Is there really bulk pricing on items with tiny mintages that sell out via the web? Or are people just calculating what it would have been?
@wondercoin said:
whatever point you were trying to make is false,
I didn’t know I was trying to make any point here. I simply reported on an interesting offering that I thought some board members might also find interesting. Obviously NJCoin does not find this fact interesting at all. That’s ok too.
Wondercoin
He doesn't find many facts interesting, unless they support or can be twisted to support his most recent wild conjecture. However, he may have hit a new low by questioning YOUR credibility.
Smh...
Not questioning @wondercoin's credibility. Questioning the credibility of the reported offer. Still am.
4K coins were released last week. 2800 via the web, where they disappeared in 15 minutes with no ordering limits. 1200 out the back door.
I'm shocked that half of them are showing up in a single distress sale less than a week later, when retail pricing is still strong, and when a return window to the Mint, where they are currently Unavailable, and when we know dealers have returned quantity in the past.
If someone got hurt grabbing them away from retail, that would be great, but I'm not a believer. Because they could be sent in for grading, at a fantastic bulk discount, and yield significant returns. So no, I'm not believing someone shelled out $9 million for them, and now needs to sell them at a loss a week later.
But very savvy people here got burned on BST when multiple accounts were hacked. I'm not believing 17% of the entire mintage of a quick sell out are being offered publicly in a distress sale a week after acquisition, when there is still robust retail demand. Sorry, but thrilled to be able to establish new lows for you to be amazed by.
@jmlanzaf said:
FWIW if you charged 2000 coins at $4500 each with 3% cashback, you would get $135 per coin in cash. If you then sold them at $4450 you would still net $85 per coin which is $170,000 profit for passing it through.
And before you ask, it may well be better to do that than ship 2000 coins separately at, for example, $4600 each.
For some reason I doubt that was the plan here.
I don't know. But it is possible if it's part of a bigger plan. You increase your purchases by $9 million which gets/keeps you in "the big boys" while making $170,000.
You also could be a bulk purchaser with the 5% discount which is $225 per coin.
It is not, under any of those 3 scenarios (A, B, and A+B), the seller is not losing any money whatsoever, unlike the Pope's pronouncement.
What "bulk discount"? Bulk discounts usually apply to items available in quantity. Not items in short supply that the Mint has no trouble selling through the web. Like this.
2800 were available on the web. They did not receive a bulk discount. 1200 went out the back door. Maybe a bulk discount, maybe not. But not 2,000.
But, again, if you are correct, and if the buyer risked $9 million as "part of a bigger plan," I hope they choke on the coins. Because, if any of this is true, the buyer did not "make $170K" if they spent $9 million for $7.4 million worth of gold they are having trouble unloading.
@wondercoin said:
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
Is there really bulk pricing on items with tiny mintages that sell out via the web? Or are people just calculating what it would have been?
There is a bulk buyer portal that is different than the other. My understanding is they get 5% on anything that goes through there. Last I heard, they could buy lots of 1000 instead of 99 also (subject to HHL while they are in effect).
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
whatever point you were trying to make is false,
I didn’t know I was trying to make any point here. I simply reported on an interesting offering that I thought some board members might also find interesting. Obviously NJCoin does not find this fact interesting at all. That’s ok too.
Wondercoin
He doesn't find many facts interesting, unless they support or can be twisted to support his most recent wild conjecture. However, he may have hit a new low by questioning YOUR credibility.
Smh...
Not questioning @wondercoin's credibility. Questioning the credibility of the reported offer. Still am.
4K coins were released last week. 2800 via the web, where they disappeared in 15 minutes with no ordering limits. 1200 out the back door.
I'm shocked that half of them are showing up in a single distress sale less than a week later, when retail pricing is still strong, and when a return window to the Mint, where they are currently Unavailable, and when we know dealers have returned quantity in the past.
If someone got hurt grabbing them away from retail, that would be great, but I'm not a believer. Because they could be sent in for grading, at a fantastic bulk discount, and yield significant returns. So no, I'm not believing someone shelled out $9 million for them, and now needs to sell them at a loss a week later.
But very savvy people here got burned on BST when multiple accounts were hacked. I'm not believing 17% of the entire mintage of a quick sell out are being offered publicly in a distress sale a week after acquisition, when there is still robust retail demand. Sorry, but thrilled to be able to establish new lows for you to be amazed by.
You kind of did specifically call him out when you said that you know he's beloved and respected BUT...
He didn't specify the source, but i would assume it's on one of the fake coin exchanges.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
Is there really bulk pricing on items with tiny mintages that sell out via the web? Or are people just calculating what it would have been?
There is a bulk buyer portal that is different than the other. My understanding is they get 5% on anything that goes through there. Last I heard, they could buy lots of 1000 instead of 99 also (subject to HHL while they are in effect).
I understand. But I did not think everything went through the portal, and that something like this, short minted with a fast sell out, with more made available later, also with a fast sell out, would be a candidate.
At this point, I concede that absolutely anything is possible, given all the bobs and weaves from the Mint lately. I still contend the numbers, timing and pricing are not adding up.
And, as I said before, I am very strongly rooting for this to be true. Won't make me feel any better the next time a Big Boy gets an over allocation of lottery prize privy, or a short struck gold coin, but will restore my faith in karma.
@jmlanzaf said:
FWIW if you charged 2000 coins at $4500 each with 3% cashback, you would get $135 per coin in cash. If you then sold them at $4450 you would still net $85 per coin which is $170,000 profit for passing it through.
And before you ask, it may well be better to do that than ship 2000 coins separately at, for example, $4600 each.
For some reason I doubt that was the plan here.
I don't know. But it is possible if it's part of a bigger plan. You increase your purchases by $9 million which gets/keeps you in "the big boys" while making $170,000.
You also could be a bulk purchaser with the 5% discount which is $225 per coin.
It is not, under any of those 3 scenarios (A, B, and A+B), the seller is not losing any money whatsoever, unlike the Pope's pronouncement.
What "bulk discount"? Bulk discounts usually apply to items available in quantity. Not items in short supply that the Mint has no trouble selling through the web. Like this.
2800 were available on the web. They did not receive a bulk discount. 1200 went out the back door. Maybe a bulk discount, maybe not. But not 2,000.
But, again, if you are correct, and if the buyer risked $9 million as "part of a bigger plan," I hope they choke on the coins. Because, if any of this is true, the buyer did not "make $170K" if they spent $9 million for $7.4 million worth of gold they are having trouble unloading.
Read my other post. Also read this post more carefully. I didn't say "bulk discount", i said "bulk buyer's discount". Bulk buyers get a (ridiculously small) discount. One the HHL is off, this is just like any other item.
It's only a problem is they don't sell them. It's not a problem is they didn't sell in 2 days. (By the way, you're also taking out of both sides of your mouth. You don't believe the offer is real because it is too low compared to market price but now you think he won't be able to sell them at that price!?!?)
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
Is there really bulk pricing on items with tiny mintages that sell out via the web? Or are people just calculating what it would have been?
There is a bulk buyer portal that is different than the other. My understanding is they get 5% on anything that goes through there. Last I heard, they could buy lots of 1000 instead of 99 also (subject to HHL while they are in effect).
I understand. But I did not think everything went through the portal, and that something like this, short minted with a fast sell out, with more made available later, also with a fast sell out, would be a candidate.
At this point, I concede that absolutely anything is possible, given all the bobs and weaves from the Mint lately. I still contend the numbers, timing and pricing are not adding up.
And, as I said before, I am very strongly rooting for this to be true. Won't make me feel any better the next time a Big Boy gets an over allocation of lottery prize privy, or a short struck gold coin, but will restore my faith in karma.
My understanding from the bulk buyer i used to deal with is that everything is there once the HHL is off.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@wondercoin said:
whatever point you were trying to make is false,
I didn’t know I was trying to make any point here. I simply reported on an interesting offering that I thought some board members might also find interesting. Obviously NJCoin does not find this fact interesting at all. That’s ok too.
Wondercoin
He doesn't find many facts interesting, unless they support or can be twisted to support his most recent wild conjecture. However, he may have hit a new low by questioning YOUR credibility.
Smh...
Not questioning @wondercoin's credibility. Questioning the credibility of the reported offer. Still am.
4K coins were released last week. 2800 via the web, where they disappeared in 15 minutes with no ordering limits. 1200 out the back door.
I'm shocked that half of them are showing up in a single distress sale less than a week later, when retail pricing is still strong, and when a return window to the Mint, where they are currently Unavailable, and when we know dealers have returned quantity in the past.
If someone got hurt grabbing them away from retail, that would be great, but I'm not a believer. Because they could be sent in for grading, at a fantastic bulk discount, and yield significant returns. So no, I'm not believing someone shelled out $9 million for them, and now needs to sell them at a loss a week later.
But very savvy people here got burned on BST when multiple accounts were hacked. I'm not believing 17% of the entire mintage of a quick sell out are being offered publicly in a distress sale a week after acquisition, when there is still robust retail demand. Sorry, but thrilled to be able to establish new lows for you to be amazed by.
You kind of did specifically call him out when you said that you know he's beloved and respected BUT...
He didn't specify the source, but i would assume it's on one of the fake coin exchanges.
Yes. My point was that I know he is a reputable source, but I think he is spreading bad info. Not that he created it, BUT that he is spreading it.
Unless I see a name, an invoice, and a proof of ownership, I still won't believe that something like this would happen, in this time frame, with this pricing, and this portion of the mintage and latest sales drop.
Think about it - it means someone took down half of what was released last week, thinking they had a quick flip that failed to materialize, and now they are panicking. Possibly because they can't pay for the purchase.
And, they don't have an "out" that doesn't involve humiliating themselves in public, offering something to bulk purchasers at a price above where they were grabbed, with no takers. When there is a robust retail market for these.
Someone committed $9 million to this, without having an exit that didn't involve actually dealing in the coins, given that the bulk portal is meant for large retail dealers. Not vest pocket wannabees.
You are apparently always willing to believe anything that is remotely possible. I tend to be more skeptical. Sorry.
@jmlanzaf said:
FWIW if you charged 2000 coins at $4500 each with 3% cashback, you would get $135 per coin in cash. If you then sold them at $4450 you would still net $85 per coin which is $170,000 profit for passing it through.
And before you ask, it may well be better to do that than ship 2000 coins separately at, for example, $4600 each.
For some reason I doubt that was the plan here.
I don't know. But it is possible if it's part of a bigger plan. You increase your purchases by $9 million which gets/keeps you in "the big boys" while making $170,000.
You also could be a bulk purchaser with the 5% discount which is $225 per coin.
It is not, under any of those 3 scenarios (A, B, and A+B), the seller is not losing any money whatsoever, unlike the Pope's pronouncement.
What "bulk discount"? Bulk discounts usually apply to items available in quantity. Not items in short supply that the Mint has no trouble selling through the web. Like this.
2800 were available on the web. They did not receive a bulk discount. 1200 went out the back door. Maybe a bulk discount, maybe not. But not 2,000.
But, again, if you are correct, and if the buyer risked $9 million as "part of a bigger plan," I hope they choke on the coins. Because, if any of this is true, the buyer did not "make $170K" if they spent $9 million for $7.4 million worth of gold they are having trouble unloading.
Read my other post. Also read this post more carefully. I didn't say "bulk discount", i said "bulk buyer's discount". Bulk buyers get a (ridiculously small) discount. One the HHL is off, this is just like any other item.
It's only a problem is they don't sell them. It's not a problem is they didn't sell in 2 days. (By the way, you're also taking out of both sides of your mouth. You don't believe the offer is real because it is too low compared to market price but now you think he won't be able to sell them at that price!?!?)
Not talking out of both sides. I don't believe it. I told you why.
But, if it IS true, yeah, huge problem. 2K offered publicly, below Mint issue price, with no takers, will only drive the price down. But, aren't they being offered to the same crowd that is eligible for the bulk discount?
Did this person really risk $9 million to try to skim a portion of a 5% discount? When a 10% profit is readily available, today, at retail, and closer to 20-25% on 70s?
Again, sorry. Not adding up for me. $9 million in cash or credit with Mint, but no retail channel to sell them through? A wannabee stuck with something that is actually sold out and in demand? And, if it's legit, no takers among the Bigger Boys?
Don't bulk buyers also get return privileges? Isn't that what happened with the enhanced uncirculated sets once upon a time?
@wondercoin said:
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
Is there really bulk pricing on items with tiny mintages that sell out via the web? Or are people just calculating what it would have been?
There is a bulk buyer portal that is different than the other. My understanding is they get 5% on anything that goes through there. Last I heard, they could buy lots of 1000 instead of 99 also (subject to HHL while they are in effect).
I understand. But I did not think everything went through the portal, and that something like this, short minted with a fast sell out, with more made available later, also with a fast sell out, would be a candidate.
At this point, I concede that absolutely anything is possible, given all the bobs and weaves from the Mint lately. I still contend the numbers, timing and pricing are not adding up.
And, as I said before, I am very strongly rooting for this to be true. Won't make me feel any better the next time a Big Boy gets an over allocation of lottery prize privy, or a short struck gold coin, but will restore my faith in karma.
My understanding from the bulk buyer i used to deal with is that everything is there once the HHL is off.
Okay. I'll accept that, because it would help explain how 2800 disappeared in 15 minutes with no public notice. Doesn't explain a distress sale a week later. Or why the expectation would be that the folks he bought them out from under would reward him with a profit, if he's not actually set up to move them the way the Mint intends them to be moved.
I do see that Pinehurst no longer has a bid on these. And that the Pure bid is below this offer. So, I guess, if bulk buyers don't have return privileges, and this person is an amateur trying to get into the game using borrowed money, this could be a very expensive lesson in karma.
Still, my takeaway from @wondercoin's original post was that we should cut the Big Boys slack because they provide a public service in stepping in front of us when buying from the Mint. Which I will never do.
Because this person is clearly not a Big Boy, but a Big Boy wannabee who bit off more than he could chew. Again, if true.
I'm still having trouble believing, even though, if all the stars line up right, I guess it is theoretically possible. I just can't wrap my head around anyone being so careless with so much money. And then panicking so publicly, when there are several well known potential outlets that could be reached out to quietly with aggressive pricing. If you had 2K of something relatively expensive that you wanted to move, and you were posting in a public forum, would you offer all 2K at once? So I still think it's BS.
Comments
Who would do that?
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Great deal! That's what we get when USM and big boys played something under table.
Actually, they are out of stock!
Or maybe that's what you get when you don't buy it when you had the chance.
Or that's what we get when people continue to spin wild allegations without evidence.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
eBay has a bunch of PF70 graded available for $6000 from reputable sellers.
“if you missed the chance to buy from the US Mint, you can a buy a sunflower w/Box & COA from APMEX for $6,295!”
A dealer the other day was offering up to 2,000 fresh coins for $50 back of current US Mint sales price. You want to “play with the big boys” - buy 500-1,000 coins right now UNDER current Mint issue price and have some fun. Money talks… this is the real market level. I personally had 0 interest buying the coins this week slightly back of US Mint current sales level. I might have felt differently at original Mint asking price on Day 1. For me- Too many other opportunities right now to get a better return with the dough.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Wild spin on the swirl 🤔 MHO
The sunflower is beautiful though!
But...but...but...dealer shenanigans, i'm told, make it impossible to "play with a big boys". There are conspiracies everywhere.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Yup. And I wouldn't have too much trouble whipping up another one here.
The additional 4K were dumped by the Mint exactly one week ago. Did someone actually grab them just to flip them to other dealers for $50 back of current US Mint price, which I think is unchanged from the week before? Or are these not "fresh coins" at all, but rather, an accumulation of several dealers' rejects? Or are they pure fiction?
Sorry, and I know @wondercoin is a beloved and reputable member here, but I'm not buying that someone legit grabbed 17% of the total mintage that sold out pretty much instantly, representing literally a full half of last week's release, just to dump them less than one week later for $50 back of where they were snapped up a week ago, while they can still easily be retailed on eBay for $600 more, and close to $1,000 above that in a 70.
So, all stories about Big Boys getting privileges we don't enjoy because they take great risks with great sums of money aside, I'm calling BS on half the "fresh coins" that were gobbled up last week being wholesaled at a discount less than a week later, with no takers. The coins @wondercoin describes are either not "fresh" or don't even exist.
Because they'd be returned to the Mint at no loss this quickly if this was truly a case of buyer's remorse because dealers see the retail market for these fading. We've seen it before, where thousands upon thousands of coins are mysteriously subtracted from a sales report.
This story is just meant to shut us up, because we don't understand that Big Boys are American heroes who take great risks, and therefore deserve great rewards when they disproportionately rip guaranteed flips away from retail buyers. And now there is a myth that someone is stuck, a week after they grabbed them, when all indications are that these will be winners.
Basically, an anti-conspiracy theory, accepted without question by the one person here who seemingly questions everything. 🤣
NjCoin: You are in very treacherous waters suggesting what I post here isn’t accurate. You truly lose All credibility. I might suggest you consider a different angle for your continued attacks on the Mint armed with (and embracing) the information I provided. 😉
Wondercoin.
Edited to add- the offering as of last night: (2000 COINS TOTAL @ $4550)...US MINT COST IS $4615 CURRENTLY THIS IS $65 UNDER MINT COST
The mint must have new employees that aren't handling sales the way it used to be done. That is probably the most likely explanation. The mint needs to understand that all the buyers show up at release time, and that is the time to sell all the coins. Not partial sales, and dribbles of coins later.
12k is not a lot of coins compared to SE sales.
Was the mint worried that they could only sell 8k of these? Maybe
That could explain why they only took 8k and then said "woa, strike all of them"
I stand by what I said. I don't believe anyone tied up $9.2 million just to get buyer's remorse and to try to dump them at a $130,000 loss after a week.
Or, given where retail is for raw and 70s, that they wouldn't be snapped up almost immediately by other dealers. These are sold out at the Mint, and likely would be again if the 2K were returned.
No reason for anyone to take a $130K haircut to get out of them. Maybe they are counterfeit.
I honestly don't care what you say about my credibility. Something does not sound right about this, and you are responsible for spreading it here.
Again, that has happened many times in the past. The next step after sell out is accepting Back Orders. Not pausing sales for a few weeks, and then resuming them without warning. Whatever that is, it is not SOP.
They didn't take backorders on the 4k for the last amount. It went blank.
NjCoin- use your brain. I can theorize numerous situations where this makes perfect sense.
By the way, this lot has been available for around 2 days now.
Wondercoin
Such as? With a quick sell out? Where an additional 4K coins just dropped a week ago, they are still sold out, and they are still selling for significant premiums to the Mint price at retail?
Is the seller someone known and reputable? The fact that it has been available with no takers for 2 days says something to me, and not that the $5250 completed eBay sale today by a reputable seller with 100% positive feedback on over 6K transactions is fiction.
I have also theorized a situation where it makes sense. The coins are not fresh, and might not even be real. Or genuine.
Not that someone with the financial wherewithal to tie up over $9 million in them panicked after a few days, and can't either return them or flip them quietly, at no loss, without you coming here to tell us how dealers are heroes who take huge financial risks on slam dunk flips, and so deserve to take coins in quantity from retail buyers. I actually hope someone got stuck trying to game this, but I seriously doubt that happened here.
I know. What I'm saying is that SOP would be, if they truly only initially made 8K because they questioned demand, they would have placed the remaining 4K on Back Order on the day of release, after the 3 hour sell out of the initial 8K, with a HHL of 1.
They didn't. They just quietly made them and placed them on sale a few weeks later. With no HHL.
Not SOP. Although admittedly, nowadays, with all the games and lack of transparency, there is no more SOP.
The mint could have released the last 4k with a HHL of 1 and didn't. They would probably say they should have. It happens. We can't have it both ways, just like they put in the privy coins among the flowing hair silver medals. They could have sold those for a lot more alone than they got. It was a gift to buyers and bulk buyers that followed the mint and took advantage of how they released them. It's the same here.
Some here got multiples of this coin and are happy they have them That is what matters in the end, not those that missed out. Next year there will be many coins due to the 250th anniversary, and I would bet it will be the same confusion with those.
Is the seller someone known and reputable?
I certainly think so. And the physical delivery of the coins is about as safe as it could ever be orchestrated by any of us.
Wondercoin
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
Okay. So maybe the account was hacked. Otherwise, what are your "numerous situations where this makes perfect sense" for someone who literally just took down a full half of what the Mint put up for sale a week ago? Denying hundreds or thousands of people the opportunity to buy them one at a time.
Again, I would simply love, love, love for someone to actually be stuck if that actually happened, with the Mint not accepting returns. I just would find that very, very difficult to believe, given how the Mint could easily resell them AND take care of a Big Boy, if this is actually the case.
And, if this seller is just testing the water before returning them to the Mint, then whatever point you were trying to make is false, and these guys ARE actually playing a game that is rigged against retail, where they cannot lose, even when they bet wrong.
Just some additional numbers for the fire. 460 were sold on PURE 5 days ago for $4,442/ea. Original USM Bulk price was $4,478 and the ones they sold 9/12 were $4,565.
How very interesting. Don’t tell NJCoin!! 😉
Wondercoin
whatever point you were trying to make is false,
I didn’t know I was trying to make any point here. I simply reported on an interesting offering that I thought some board members might also find interesting. Obviously NJCoin does not find this fact interesting at all. That’s ok too.
Wondercoin
now we know that 2,000 is way too hard to move in a lot
even at 100 per that's 20 dealers trying to move them
this is a huge oops
He doesn't find many facts interesting, unless they support or can be twisted to support his most recent wild conjecture. However, he may have hit a new low by questioning YOUR credibility.
Smh...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
So, you're saying that PURE posts fake sales to move the market...
[End sarcasm]
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
FWIW if you charged 2000 coins at $4500 each with 3% cashback, you would get $135 per coin in cash. If you then sold them at $4450 you would still net $85 per coin which is $170,000 profit for passing it through.
And before you ask, it may well be better to do that than ship 2000 coins separately at, for example, $4600 each.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
For some reason I doubt that was the plan here.
I don't know. But it is possible if it's part of a bigger plan. You increase your purchases by $9 million which gets/keeps you in "the big boys" while making $170,000.
You also could be a bulk purchaser with the 5% discount which is $225 per coin.
It is not, under any of those 3 scenarios (A, B, and A+B), the seller is not losing any money whatsoever, unlike the Pope's pronouncement.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Is there really bulk pricing on items with tiny mintages that sell out via the web? Or are people just calculating what it would have been?
Not questioning @wondercoin's credibility. Questioning the credibility of the reported offer. Still am.
4K coins were released last week. 2800 via the web, where they disappeared in 15 minutes with no ordering limits. 1200 out the back door.
I'm shocked that half of them are showing up in a single distress sale less than a week later, when retail pricing is still strong, and when a return window to the Mint, where they are currently Unavailable, and when we know dealers have returned quantity in the past.
If someone got hurt grabbing them away from retail, that would be great, but I'm not a believer. Because they could be sent in for grading, at a fantastic bulk discount, and yield significant returns. So no, I'm not believing someone shelled out $9 million for them, and now needs to sell them at a loss a week later.
But very savvy people here got burned on BST when multiple accounts were hacked. I'm not believing 17% of the entire mintage of a quick sell out are being offered publicly in a distress sale a week after acquisition, when there is still robust retail demand. Sorry, but thrilled to be able to establish new lows for you to be amazed by.
What "bulk discount"? Bulk discounts usually apply to items available in quantity. Not items in short supply that the Mint has no trouble selling through the web. Like this.
2800 were available on the web. They did not receive a bulk discount. 1200 went out the back door. Maybe a bulk discount, maybe not. But not 2,000.
But, again, if you are correct, and if the buyer risked $9 million as "part of a bigger plan," I hope they choke on the coins. Because, if any of this is true, the buyer did not "make $170K" if they spent $9 million for $7.4 million worth of gold they are having trouble unloading.
There is a bulk buyer portal that is different than the other. My understanding is they get 5% on anything that goes through there. Last I heard, they could buy lots of 1000 instead of 99 also (subject to HHL while they are in effect).
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You kind of did specifically call him out when you said that you know he's beloved and respected BUT...
He didn't specify the source, but i would assume it's on one of the fake coin exchanges.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I understand. But I did not think everything went through the portal, and that something like this, short minted with a fast sell out, with more made available later, also with a fast sell out, would be a candidate.
At this point, I concede that absolutely anything is possible, given all the bobs and weaves from the Mint lately. I still contend the numbers, timing and pricing are not adding up.
And, as I said before, I am very strongly rooting for this to be true. Won't make me feel any better the next time a Big Boy gets an over allocation of lottery prize privy, or a short struck gold coin, but will restore my faith in karma.
Read my other post. Also read this post more carefully. I didn't say "bulk discount", i said "bulk buyer's discount". Bulk buyers get a (ridiculously small) discount. One the HHL is off, this is just like any other item.
It's only a problem is they don't sell them. It's not a problem is they didn't sell in 2 days. (By the way, you're also taking out of both sides of your mouth. You don't believe the offer is real because it is too low compared to market price but now you think he won't be able to sell them at that price!?!?)
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
My understanding from the bulk buyer i used to deal with is that everything is there once the HHL is off.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Yes. My point was that I know he is a reputable source, but I think he is spreading bad info. Not that he created it, BUT that he is spreading it.
Unless I see a name, an invoice, and a proof of ownership, I still won't believe that something like this would happen, in this time frame, with this pricing, and this portion of the mintage and latest sales drop.
Think about it - it means someone took down half of what was released last week, thinking they had a quick flip that failed to materialize, and now they are panicking. Possibly because they can't pay for the purchase.
And, they don't have an "out" that doesn't involve humiliating themselves in public, offering something to bulk purchasers at a price above where they were grabbed, with no takers. When there is a robust retail market for these.
Someone committed $9 million to this, without having an exit that didn't involve actually dealing in the coins, given that the bulk portal is meant for large retail dealers. Not vest pocket wannabees.
You are apparently always willing to believe anything that is remotely possible. I tend to be more skeptical. Sorry.
Not talking out of both sides. I don't believe it. I told you why.
But, if it IS true, yeah, huge problem. 2K offered publicly, below Mint issue price, with no takers, will only drive the price down. But, aren't they being offered to the same crowd that is eligible for the bulk discount?
Did this person really risk $9 million to try to skim a portion of a 5% discount? When a 10% profit is readily available, today, at retail, and closer to 20-25% on 70s?
Again, sorry. Not adding up for me. $9 million in cash or credit with Mint, but no retail channel to sell them through? A wannabee stuck with something that is actually sold out and in demand? And, if it's legit, no takers among the Bigger Boys?
Don't bulk buyers also get return privileges? Isn't that what happened with the enhanced uncirculated sets once upon a time?
Okay. I'll accept that, because it would help explain how 2800 disappeared in 15 minutes with no public notice. Doesn't explain a distress sale a week later. Or why the expectation would be that the folks he bought them out from under would reward him with a profit, if he's not actually set up to move them the way the Mint intends them to be moved.
I do see that Pinehurst no longer has a bid on these. And that the Pure bid is below this offer. So, I guess, if bulk buyers don't have return privileges, and this person is an amateur trying to get into the game using borrowed money, this could be a very expensive lesson in karma.
Still, my takeaway from @wondercoin's original post was that we should cut the Big Boys slack because they provide a public service in stepping in front of us when buying from the Mint. Which I will never do.
Because this person is clearly not a Big Boy, but a Big Boy wannabee who bit off more than he could chew. Again, if true.
I'm still having trouble believing, even though, if all the stars line up right, I guess it is theoretically possible. I just can't wrap my head around anyone being so careless with so much money. And then panicking so publicly, when there are several well known potential outlets that could be reached out to quietly with aggressive pricing. If you had 2K of something relatively expensive that you wanted to move, and you were posting in a public forum, would you offer all 2K at once? So I still think it's BS.