Can a Flowing Hair Cent from 1793 really be MS69? How about a Liberty half eagle from 1902?
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Capt. Henway's comments on MS70 being undermined by being assigned to coins that are less than perfect got me thinking about some MS69 grades for some top coins. The Burdette-Naftzger 1793 Vine and Bars BN MS69 OGH has been seen in a famous "group" shot. It is clearly special but can any coin from 1793 really merit MS69?
I am a half eagle collector and have seen a few Liberty half eagles in MS69 (no, I don't own one). Here is a 1902-S that is spectacular, but there are some marks on the face and neck:
Different examples but one question is how much of the value of each coin can be attributed to the grade on the slab (as opposed to the actual merits of the coin)? And how much of that value is driven by the registry?
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Comments
I think a $5 Liberty has a far greater chance than a (or the) Wreath cent.
If the latter had been posted as a guess-the-grade exercise, what percentage of the replies do you think might have been in the MS69 (or 68, 67, or even 66) camp?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Both coins are great to look at. Thanks for posting pix.
Merit a 69 grade? If the pro graders think that the coin has remained as minted and with the requisite strike, surface and luster characteristics for that grade - yes.
At the superb gem and above grades, the grade on the holder matters much and the concomitant top pop registry points add a lot as well.
Then there is another step up in value and registry worth for CAC approval.
Eye appeal matters as well; just look at the fields and the color on both coins. Wow.
Thanks again for showing a pair of the best of all coins.
Just because something is difficult to achieve doesn't disqualify that achievement.
If three experts place their reputation on a coin- and remember, they have no vested interest in- and state a grade, it may then be considered that IS the grade regardless of your feelings to the contrary.
peacockcoins
I guess it depends on the grader.
This wreath cent is absolutely stunning. Does it really matter what grade is attached to the coin?
It certainly does to potential buyers. And no matter how wonderful the coin might look in hand, “stunning” isn’t a word that comes to mind for me, when viewing the images. Where’s the luster and amazing eye-appeal that an MS69 example should exhibit?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I've seen that famous wreath cent at least a handful of times over the years. It's a commercial MS-68 at the very least and MS-69 isn't out of the question.
Official PCGS account of:
www.TallahasseeCoinClub.com
Is MS 69 brown really a thing? looks 66+ BN to these eyes unless it has the most spinning cartwheel ever on a copper coin. I know coins like that grade is sometime analogous with preservation ranking but just grade it #1 if that is what youre doing
I have much less of an issue with the half eagle, its clearly a super gem exceeding 67 and at that point of 68-70 its a paper exercise anyway
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
The Wreath Cent could be a market graded MS 69. When I got back into collecting in the early 1990s, for the most part, grades for classic coins maxed out as MS 67. Grading standard have changed since then. Remember an Unc. old copper with 5% RD was considered RB? Not for the last 30 years.
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While we may look at hundreds of coins inhand, do we really grade them all? Most likely not. Then coin graders look at thousands of coins and grade each and every one. I believe I would heed their grade thoughts, especially as I could never afford either of those coins. lol
Jim
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I remember seeing that 1902-S at an ANA show many years ago and it was spectacular. IIRC, the same dealer also had an amazing $20.00 Lib in MS67.
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Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Some may opine yes.
Some may opine no.
Who is to say what the grade is (and have his or her answer be binding on everyone)?
Gorgeous coins BTW; and my opinion about the grades of these coins is: WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!
When you are talking about early cents like that 1793, you are really just ranking the known examples. I don't think the number on the slab is very relevant.
As for the Wreath Cent: I understand it is a brown coin, not RB or Red, but I believe any coin in that grade better have perfect 100% luster. I’ve never seen the coin in hand and the photos leave a bit to be desired. I’d venture to guess it does not have perfect luster, although the strike looks pretty darn nice. Then there’s the consideration of marks. For me, if I were to ever have the lofty position of a grader, I would not see myself allocating a MS69 grade to the coin. That said, I’m just another poor guy with an opinion and keyboard.
As for the 1902-S $5: Stunning coin but with marks noted by the OP and obvious marks on the lower reverse, not to mention some spotting, I wouldn’t call that MS69 either. It sure is pretty though!
Here again, I’m just a poor guy with an opinion and keyboard.
Both coins are amazing and I would expect them to be graded relative to other examples. Would they sticker at those grade levels…or are they already? lol 
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I’m not grading it, I just think that it’s gorgeous. I will leave MS-69’s and 70’s to those that can actually figure that out.
I think the numerical grade tends to matter to most collectors. But if we accept that, then how do we split hairs on an early copper coin where there's virtually no luster/cartwheel/frost/ect. to drive the hair-splitting. I know this is going to be viewed as an "apples-and-oranges" argument but it's much easier to make these assessments on a Morgan Dollar or a Double Eagle. Not so much on early copper. That said, and if you're still with me, would you grade this coin MS60, or MS63? I found this auction from the Heritage website... PCGS MS68 >>> EAC MS63
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I think you may be underestimating the power of registries. The 1793 is owned by High Desert and his various type sets that include this coin are in close competition with a number of other sets, like those of DL Hansen and Black Cat. I believe that Hansen has a 64BN and Black Cat has a 66BN for this slot, so High Desert may view the 69BN grade (and its 3-5 grade gap over the other two) of more significance than you think. To further complicate things, Black Cat's and Hansen's Wreath Cents are both stickered and High Desert's is not.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
1793 Cent is not a 69. More like a 66 BN at best. Half Eagle I would say is in 68 territory. 69? Probably not. But that's just my opinion.
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