To me, only the firm matters, not the individual who does the grading. I am only interested in the top three firms AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I have been convinced to avoid statements that are intended to be “forever”. I own about a dozen or so small white ANACS slabs I acquired in the 1990’s.
Member - ANA Exhibiting Committee, Membership and Outreach Committee, George Heath Society, PAN, FUN, ANA Qualified Exhibit Judge, Joe Boling Award winner, Glenn Smedley Award winner.
I enjoyed reading this post. I agree with it too. I have been collecting for so many years that I know how to grade, what to look for and what to avoid. However, I also like to buy coins from trusted dealers that I know to sell premium coins for the grade. Plus, since I buy mostly older US coins, I like a CAC sticker on the slab too. In that particular case, I do know who is grading my coins.
Finally, I thought some of the comments directed to the OP to be unnecessary and rude. It’s too bad people have to comment when they just want to be snarky.
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
I've heard that Anacs is particularly tough on dollars, from a dealer I know who sends in large groups of them to Anacs from time to time. So much so that he calls up his point man, representative at Anacs, and asks if he can send some back to get the right grade on the holder so he doesn't have to do so on his ebay listings.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
Well, the Garrett 1804 Dollar was graded by Q. David Bowers as an EF-40 and by ANACS as an EF-40, and I believe that it is now in a 55 holder. As a potential buyer, do you like paying extra for those "rarity points?"
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
When it comes to colonial coins, I have to trust myself to grade it before I have a TPG grade it for me. I get it that it isn’t an easy job but there is far too much inconsistency in their grading when it comes to state copper and Massachusetts silver.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
Well, the Garrett 1804 Dollar was graded by Q. David Bowers as an EF-40 and by ANACS as an EF-40, and I believe that it is now in a 55 holder. As a potential buyer, do you like paying extra for those "rarity points?"
It's in an ANACS 55 holder?
Again, that's an extreme case. If you want another one, a top pop 68 Morgan will bring much more money in a PCGS holder than an ANACS. Would you submit a 68 Morgan to ANACS? The person you sell it to will make money just on the cross.
Personally, I don't play the top pop game. But no dealer i know would submit a top pop candidate to anyone but PCGS or NGC. So, I would expect more true 68s to end up at PCGS than at ANACS. If true, a higher percentage of 68s at PCGS than ANACS won't tell me who is actually stricter.
The better test might be VG/F S VDBs. If you just want authentication, you would submit it to any of the 3.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
Well, the Garrett 1804 Dollar was graded by Q. David Bowers as an EF-40 and by ANACS as an EF-40, and I believe that it is now in a 55 holder. As a potential buyer, do you like paying extra for those "rarity points?"
It's in an ANACS 55 holder?
Again, that's an extreme case. If you want another one, a top pop 68 Morgan will bring much more money in a PCGS holder than an ANACS. Would you submit a 68 Morgan to ANACS? The person you sell it to will make money just on the cross.
Personally, I don't play the top pop game. But no dealer i know would submit a top pop candidate to anyone but PCGS or NGC. So, I would expect more true 68s to end up at PCGS than at ANACS. If true, a higher percentage of 68s at PCGS than ANACS won't tell me who is actually stricter.
The better test might be VG/F S VDBs. If you just want authentication, you would submit it to any of the 3.
I don’t think the AU55 1804 dollar in question is in an ANACS holder.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
Well, the Garrett 1804 Dollar was graded by Q. David Bowers as an EF-40 and by ANACS as an EF-40, and I believe that it is now in a 55 holder. As a potential buyer, do you like paying extra for those "rarity points?"
It's in an ANACS 55 holder?
Again, that's an extreme case. If you want another one, a top pop 68 Morgan will bring much more money in a PCGS holder than an ANACS. Would you submit a 68 Morgan to ANACS? The person you sell it to will make money just on the cross.
Personally, I don't play the top pop game. But no dealer i know would submit a top pop candidate to anyone but PCGS or NGC. So, I would expect more true 68s to end up at PCGS than at ANACS. If true, a higher percentage of 68s at PCGS than ANACS won't tell me who is actually stricter.
The better test might be VG/F S VDBs. If you just want authentication, you would submit it to any of the 3.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I’m sure that you remember this one back in the day…
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
Well, the Garrett 1804 Dollar was graded by Q. David Bowers as an EF-40 and by ANACS as an EF-40, and I believe that it is now in a 55 holder. As a potential buyer, do you like paying extra for those "rarity points?"
It's in an ANACS 55 holder?
Again, that's an extreme case. If you want another one, a top pop 68 Morgan will bring much more money in a PCGS holder than an ANACS. Would you submit a 68 Morgan to ANACS? The person you sell it to will make money just on the cross.
Personally, I don't play the top pop game. But no dealer i know would submit a top pop candidate to anyone but PCGS or NGC. So, I would expect more true 68s to end up at PCGS than at ANACS. If true, a higher percentage of 68s at PCGS than ANACS won't tell me who is actually stricter.
The better test might be VG/F S VDBs. If you just want authentication, you would submit it to any of the 3.
Also as an NGC 55, where it brought more. The Berg Specimen.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Again, the discussions seem to revolve around money, not the coin.
.The real question to me is where the better coin is going to be found in the holder of the same grade.
Perhaps we need to see side comparisons to accentuate and contrast the differences.
I believe the general coin population in firms holders that bring less money has it's better coins broken out leaving coins of lessor appeal to represent the brand. But, it is no surprise to me that better coins migrate to todays hotter service. Who does not want to get the highest return when you want to sell? But who will be the hot service when you want/have to sell? It can, has, and will change. When I look through the MS-68's sold at auction, I see obvious marking that barely make a MS-67 in my book.
Does the money make it right? If the market makes right, what will you do when the market changes like it did in 1980,1989, and to a lessor extent 2009. Are there really that many cool-aid drinkers with so little confidence in their own grading? Dumb question, I know.
Money differences drive this investors, dealers and fast buck artists migration to the highest grade holder. The grade inflation trend will eventually bump up against the constraints of the 70 point scale. Think MS-70 with an acceptable amount of marks or mint made distractions.
Gold tells us that inflation is coming. The drums will start beating, Coin prices/demand will rise. Standards will loosen. Markets will crash. Standards will tighten. The cries for Ai or a new system grow louder. We've seen this movie before.
Ai assisted grading is right around the corner. Get the best coin you can in any holder, that is the best strategy in the long run. Time to watch some football. J.P. Martin
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
Mike,
You have a rare signature as I signed very few of those. J.P.
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
@KOYNGUY said:
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
Well, the Garrett 1804 Dollar was graded by Q. David Bowers as an EF-40 and by ANACS as an EF-40, and I believe that it is now in a 55 holder. As a potential buyer, do you like paying extra for those "rarity points?"
It's in an ANACS 55 holder?
Again, that's an extreme case. If you want another one, a top pop 68 Morgan will bring much more money in a PCGS holder than an ANACS. Would you submit a 68 Morgan to ANACS? The person you sell it to will make money just on the cross.
Personally, I don't play the top pop game. But no dealer i know would submit a top pop candidate to anyone but PCGS or NGC. So, I would expect more true 68s to end up at PCGS than at ANACS. If true, a higher percentage of 68s at PCGS than ANACS won't tell me who is actually stricter.
The better test might be VG/F S VDBs. If you just want authentication, you would submit it to any of the 3.
I don’t think the AU55 1804 dollar in question is in an ANACS holder.
Neither do I...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@KOYNGUY said:
Mike,
You have a rare signature as I signed very few of those. J.P.
It’s a very special and unique mint error. Love the ANACS cert with your signature too!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I think Proof Bust dollar grading experience was in short supply in the 1980's. No grading service graded them very high. Obviously none circulated, So grades of XF and AU were applied to mishandled proofs. To imply why they ended up in any particular holder is like
reasoning why Young hot blonde women end up with older billionaires. J.P.
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
@KOYNGUY said:
I think Proof Bust dollar grading experience was in short supply in the 1980's. No grading service graded them very high. Obviously none circulated, So grades of XF and AU were applied to mishandled proofs. To imply why they ended up in any particular holder is like
reasoning why Young hot blonde women end up with older billionaires. J.P.
I repeat, the Garrett coin was auctioned as a 40, and you know damn well that Dave Bowers looked at it. It wasn’t his first rodeo.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Tom,
I would rather not make this an 1804 dollar thread.
The coin you are referring to did not circulate. It Was mishandled or impaired.no original
surface remains. My personal grade is proof 50, Altered Surfaces.
Yes, Today I believe EF-40 IS too low. Having said that, I don't relish being on the other side of a grading argument with Dave and yourself.
We could write it off to grade inflation. Maybe it was graded "rather fine" 150 years ago. I don't know, I don't think it matters. It is what it is.
If you want to say there is grade inflation, Rarity bonus points where the finest known has little upper end resistance, Value grading where cheaper coins are graded looser than key coins, 1885-o $ vs 1895-o $, I would agree with you. Like you, I don't feel they should exist, but they do. Just as I feel coins graded conservatively should sell for more than lessor coins in the same grade holder. These are the money influences that market grading brings to the party.
J.P. Martin
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
Fair enough. Let us agree that consistency in Grading is a good thing, and that any Grading philosophy that helps the Seller at the expense of the Buyer, or vice versa, is a bad thing.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
To me, only the firm matters, not the individual who does the grading. I am only interested in the top three firms AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I have been convinced to avoid statements that are intended to be “forever”. I own about a dozen or so small white ANACS slabs I acquired in the 1990’s.
Member - ANA Exhibiting Committee, Membership and Outreach Committee, George Heath Society, PAN, FUN, ANA Qualified Exhibit Judge, Joe Boling Award winner, Glenn Smedley Award winner.
I enjoyed reading this post. I agree with it too. I have been collecting for so many years that I know how to grade, what to look for and what to avoid. However, I also like to buy coins from trusted dealers that I know to sell premium coins for the grade. Plus, since I buy mostly older US coins, I like a CAC sticker on the slab too. In that particular case, I do know who is grading my coins.
Finally, I thought some of the comments directed to the OP to be unnecessary and rude. It’s too bad people have to comment when they just want to be snarky.
I like thought provoking discussions that challenge notions created by marketing and advertising. I don't like responses that attack and defend out of fear and anger.
I am a big believer in numbers. If you study and compare population reports and assume the services all pull from the same populations of coins, you can make some correlations as to who is the tighter or looser in grading.
Looking at a very common coin, say an 1881-s dollar.
From my reckoning when I look at the 3 services that have lengthy pop reports I see the following: Names are changed to protect the innocent, but you can read between the lines.
.....Per 10,000 coins...64.........65..........66..........67..........68
ABC ........................ 3,740....1270......290.........48......... 28
CBS..........................3,930....1980......680.......200.........160
NBC........................ 2,750....1460......190.........14..........16
Now assuming they all pull fish from the same sea, We can make some correlations.
CBS is clearly more liberal than the others, and very much more in the grades that make the largest in value.
NBC is the most conservative, especially in the 66-68 grade level.
The closest correlation for all 3 is in the 64-65 grades.
In MS-67 an ABC coin is 4 times tighter than a MS-67 CBS holder, yet they trade the same. in MS-68 ABC is nearly 6 times tighter than a MS-68 CBS coin, yet again, they trade the same.
A NBC MS 66 coin 3.5 times times tighter than a CBS coin, yet trades at a discount, 15 times in MS 67, and 10 times in MS 68. But again, trades at a discount.
Why are these market inequities? Does it come down to marketing? advertising? ignorance of the numbers? If you are truly buying the coin, not the slab, Isn't CBS over priced and NBC undervalued.
If you think this is a one off, look and compare other pops. I think you will find them to be similar.
As always, My opinion, and respect to our host in allowing me forum to share my views.
J.P. Martin
.
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
I've heard that Anacs is particularly tough on dollars, from a dealer I know who sends in large groups of them to Anacs from time to time. So much so that he calls up his point man, representative at Anacs, and asks if he can send some back to get the right grade on the holder so he doesn't have to do so on his ebay listings.
@KOYNGUY, those are some interesting statistics. However, I don’t think we should necessarily assume “the services all pull from the same populations of coins”. I think it’s quite possible that the higher quality/grade, higher value coins are more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies whose coins tend to bring higher prices. At the same time, lower grade/quality, lower value coins might be more likely to be submitted to the grading company/companies offering lower grading fees.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was going to say the same thing. Mark saved me the trouble. I think it's likely that the widgets get submitted equally. But there is little point in trying to be top pop in plastic that isn't as highly valued.
How many 1804 dollars have been crossed to ANACS, for an extreme example?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Soon it will matter even less who the grader is 🤔
Mr_Spud
@Mr_Spud. Seriously, stop posting things like that without warning. I just spit tea all over my keyboard. Jamers
Well, the Garrett 1804 Dollar was graded by Q. David Bowers as an EF-40 and by ANACS as an EF-40, and I believe that it is now in a 55 holder. As a potential buyer, do you like paying extra for those "rarity points?"
When it comes to colonial coins, I have to trust myself to grade it before I have a TPG grade it for me. I get it that it isn’t an easy job but there is far too much inconsistency in their grading when it comes to state copper and Massachusetts silver.
It's in an ANACS 55 holder?
Again, that's an extreme case. If you want another one, a top pop 68 Morgan will bring much more money in a PCGS holder than an ANACS. Would you submit a 68 Morgan to ANACS? The person you sell it to will make money just on the cross.
Personally, I don't play the top pop game. But no dealer i know would submit a top pop candidate to anyone but PCGS or NGC. So, I would expect more true 68s to end up at PCGS than at ANACS. If true, a higher percentage of 68s at PCGS than ANACS won't tell me who is actually stricter.
The better test might be VG/F S VDBs. If you just want authentication, you would submit it to any of the 3.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I don’t think the AU55 1804 dollar in question is in an ANACS holder.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It got regarded from a 40 to a 55 is my understanding 😥
Coin number 14 in this pedigree list.
https://coinweek.com/1804-draped-bust-dollar-a-collectors-guide/
Hi J. P. Martin
I’m sure that you remember this one back in the day…
PCGS PR55 for those who don’t want to have to look it up.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Also as an NGC 55, where it brought more. The Berg Specimen.
Again, the discussions seem to revolve around money, not the coin.
.The real question to me is where the better coin is going to be found in the holder of the same grade.
Perhaps we need to see side comparisons to accentuate and contrast the differences.
I believe the general coin population in firms holders that bring less money has it's better coins broken out leaving coins of lessor appeal to represent the brand. But, it is no surprise to me that better coins migrate to todays hotter service. Who does not want to get the highest return when you want to sell? But who will be the hot service when you want/have to sell? It can, has, and will change. When I look through the MS-68's sold at auction, I see obvious marking that barely make a MS-67 in my book.
Does the money make it right? If the market makes right, what will you do when the market changes like it did in 1980,1989, and to a lessor extent 2009. Are there really that many cool-aid drinkers with so little confidence in their own grading? Dumb question, I know.
Money differences drive this investors, dealers and fast buck artists migration to the highest grade holder. The grade inflation trend will eventually bump up against the constraints of the 70 point scale. Think MS-70 with an acceptable amount of marks or mint made distractions.
Gold tells us that inflation is coming. The drums will start beating, Coin prices/demand will rise. Standards will loosen. Markets will crash. Standards will tighten. The cries for Ai or a new system grow louder. We've seen this movie before.
Ai assisted grading is right around the corner. Get the best coin you can in any holder, that is the best strategy in the long run. Time to watch some football. J.P. Martin
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
Mike,
You have a rare signature as I signed very few of those. J.P.
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
Neither do I...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
It’s a very special and unique mint error. Love the ANACS cert with your signature too!
I think Proof Bust dollar grading experience was in short supply in the 1980's. No grading service graded them very high. Obviously none circulated, So grades of XF and AU were applied to mishandled proofs. To imply why they ended up in any particular holder is like
reasoning why Young hot blonde women end up with older billionaires. J.P.
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
I repeat, the Garrett coin was auctioned as a 40, and you know damn well that Dave Bowers looked at it. It wasn’t his first rodeo.
Tom,
I would rather not make this an 1804 dollar thread.
The coin you are referring to did not circulate. It Was mishandled or impaired.no original
surface remains. My personal grade is proof 50, Altered Surfaces.
Yes, Today I believe EF-40 IS too low. Having said that, I don't relish being on the other side of a grading argument with Dave and yourself.
We could write it off to grade inflation. Maybe it was graded "rather fine" 150 years ago. I don't know, I don't think it matters. It is what it is.
If you want to say there is grade inflation, Rarity bonus points where the finest known has little upper end resistance, Value grading where cheaper coins are graded looser than key coins, 1885-o $ vs 1895-o $, I would agree with you. Like you, I don't feel they should exist, but they do. Just as I feel coins graded conservatively should sell for more than lessor coins in the same grade holder. These are the money influences that market grading brings to the party.
J.P. Martin
50 yrs in Coins, 40 yrs Certifying/Grading, 30 consecutive years teaching ANA Summer seminar, 1998 Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 200/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruises. Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volumes in my Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. OD Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Coin dealer 1981-1984, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. 2011-date ANA Advisory Committee. Lifetime member ANA, ANS
Semi-retired Professional Grader(ANACS) and married, Father to 3 teenage boys in Denver area.
Fair enough. Let us agree that consistency in Grading is a good thing, and that any Grading philosophy that helps the Seller at the expense of the Buyer, or vice versa, is a bad thing.