@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
If you called CS, they don't have any inside information.
Agreed. They just read the script.
And if they go off script, you'll really get bad information. Lol
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Have to admit, beautiful design and mint execution. If it was a couple of hundred over spot would have bought a couple. They nailed the sunflower. Mine popped Sunday and the bees are all over today.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Your hunch is correct. Once the return period is over the remaining coins will be up for sale.
I'll bet you ANYTHING that does not happen. ANYTHING.
Didn't happen with FH. Gold or silver.
Didn't happen with Superman. Didn't happen with Gold Sac.
So, the mint (either directly or indirectly) pays to move the coins to PFS's Dallas location where they are individually shipped from upon sale.
Extremely inefficient on the contractor's part but why should they care when the mint doesn't mind paying for it. Or maybe only anal retentive CPAs like me complain about the marginal cost between shipping the coins 50-100 miles to a closer fulfillment house versus 1,500 miles to DFW.
Actually, it's extremely efficient. The Mint has production facilities in West Point, Philadelphia, San Fransisco and Denver. It has one fulfillment center. Run by an outside contractor.
The Mint manufactures. It does not warehouse, ship, or handle customer service. Much more efficient to contract that out. Nabisco also doesn't ship Oreos, one package at a time, from its bakeries to every grocery store in the country.
The Mint is a series of several large government production facilities. It is not the world's largest B&M coin dealer.
Or a retail fulfillment center. It would be very inefficient to try to set one up, with federal employees, at one or several of the production facilities.
So they don't. Even if you don't understanding the economics of sending millions of units of factory output to a single central distribution point for shipping to the final destination. The anal retentive CPA in you should ask itself why every single large producer of anything in the world does the exact same thing if it's so inefficient.
So, the mint (either directly or indirectly) pays to move the coins to PFS's Dallas location where they are individually shipped from upon sale.
Extremely inefficient on the contractor's part but why should they care when the mint doesn't mind paying for it. Or maybe only anal retentive CPAs like me complain about the marginal cost between shipping the coins 50-100 miles to a closer fulfillment house versus 1,500 miles to DFW.
Actually, it's extremely efficient. The Mint has production facilities in West Point, Philadelphia, San Fransisco and Denver. It has one fulfillment center. Run by an outside contractor.
The Mint manufactures. It does not warehouse, ship, or handle customer service. Much more efficient to contract that out. Nabisco also doesn't ship Oreos, one package at a time, from its bakeries to every grocery store in the country.
The Mint is a series of several large government production facilities. It is not the world's largest B&M coin dealer.
Or a retail fulfillment center. It would be very inefficient to try to set one up, with federal employees, at one or several of the production facilities.
So they don't. Even if you don't understanding the economics of sending millions of units of factory output to a single central distribution point for shipping to the final destination. The anal retentive CPA in you should ask itself why every single large producer of anything in the world does the exact same thing if it's so inefficient.
Don't ever believe anyone if they tell you that you aren't cute when you're confused.
I don't know what's funnier (1) you compared shipping a coin that cost $4,265 to shipping a package of Oreos (2) you just pretend that if the government is doing something then it must be very efficient or (3) you engage in a strawman argument by acting like I wanted each mint to handle its own shipping (no one said anything about that).
Look back at my original comment about the marginal cost between using a local fulfillment house and one 1,500 miles away. A manufacturer 50 miles outside NYC can't find a logistics company with more than one location?
How about we drop this fascinating discussion instead of derailing the thread even more.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
If you called CS, they don't have any inside information.
Agreed. They just read the script.
They were definitely reading off a script. Which is extremely shady. We all know that communication is key to establishing any worthwhile relationship. Upfront, honest, communication. If the US Mint can't do this why are we even bothering buying 'collectible bullion"?
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
So, the mint (either directly or indirectly) pays to move the coins to PFS's Dallas location where they are individually shipped from upon sale.
Extremely inefficient on the contractor's part but why should they care when the mint doesn't mind paying for it. Or maybe only anal retentive CPAs like me complain about the marginal cost between shipping the coins 50-100 miles to a closer fulfillment house versus 1,500 miles to DFW.
Actually, it's extremely efficient. The Mint has production facilities in West Point, Philadelphia, San Fransisco and Denver. It has one fulfillment center. Run by an outside contractor.
The Mint manufactures. It does not warehouse, ship, or handle customer service. Much more efficient to contract that out. Nabisco also doesn't ship Oreos, one package at a time, from its bakeries to every grocery store in the country.
The Mint is a series of several large government production facilities. It is not the world's largest B&M coin dealer.
Or a retail fulfillment center. It would be very inefficient to try to set one up, with federal employees, at one or several of the production facilities.
So they don't. Even if you don't understanding the economics of sending millions of units of factory output to a single central distribution point for shipping to the final destination. The anal retentive CPA in you should ask itself why every single large producer of anything in the world does the exact same thing if it's so inefficient.
Don't ever believe anyone if they tell you that you aren't cute when you're confused.
I don't know what's funnier (1) you compared shipping a coin that cost $4,265 to shipping a package of Oreos (2) you just pretend that if the government is doing something then it must be very efficient or (3) you engage in a strawman argument by acting like I wanted each mint to handle its own shipping (no one said anything about that).
Look back at my original comment about the marginal cost between using a local fulfillment house and one 1,500 miles away. A manufacturer 50 miles outside NYC can't find a logistics company with more than one location?
How about we drop this fascinating discussion instead of derailing the thread even more.
Since you have no idea what their "marginal cost" is to ship from Philadelphia. West Point, Denver and San Fransisco to Dallas, as opposed to paying to maintain a series of fulfillment centers around the country closer to each production facility, and then to have to coordinate customer service depending on where each product in an order was produced, and then to have to coordinate when coins in a single product are produced at multiple sites, you have no point to make, beyond impressing us all with your use of the term "marginal," since you apparently don't get enough chances to use it outside of work.
And, of course, to scold those who dare challenge you for derailing a thread you yourself derailed. You have no idea how efficient or inefficient PFS is.
As an American taxpayer, I'd be willing to place a significant wager that having them do fulfillment, from a single location, is far more efficient than leaving it in the hands of government employees. Or spreading it around the country.
I'd also bet that someone pretty high up at the Mint came to the exact same conclusion. Likely with an expensive consultant report to back it up. If you disagree, maybe you should reach out to them and offer your thoughts, since I seriously doubt they monitor this forum.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
Maybe. But I'm not the one sitting with Linus in the pumpkin patch waiting for the missing 4500 coins.
If you took the time to read it, you'd realize I was agreeing with you. Maybe this is why your takeaway from the conversation was that another 4500 coins were going to be hitting the market.
They're not. Take it from me.
I'm not sitting in a PFS call center, so I actually know. Final sales are going to be something between what has already been reported and the 8K initially posted to ATS. Not the 12K they advertised as a maximum.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
The people "paying attention here" did exactly what they would have done if this forum didn't exist.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
The people "paying attention here" did exactly what they would have done if this forum didn't exist.
If you say so. I saw several people who didn't jump in until after it sold out on Thursday. I saw several people not know what ATS was until it was explained to them. Over and over and over and over and over again. And then still not know how to access it.
No, without this forum, a lot of people, right here, would have thought 12K were going to be sold. Just like @all_that_glitters still seems to think.
Without this forum, lots of people wouldn't know lots of things. Like Pure, 7:30, ATS, the Mint not being able to be trusted, etc., etc., etc.
You, and you alone, are an all knowing oracle who would know all regardless. Most of the rest of us would be lost without you. And, we wouldn't have you without the forum.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
I relied on the information on the mint website. So far, they haven't exceeded the maximum they set. They are extremely honest as far as I can tell. Of course, I don't feel entitled to know their specific production plans or data. I know they'll realize final mintages eventually. I am able to make decisions from this and buy the coin because I like it and think it will do well based on the information they provided.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
The people "paying attention here" did exactly what they would have done if this forum didn't exist.
If you say so. I saw several people who didn't jump in until after it sold out on Thursday. I saw several people not know what ATS was until it was explained to them. Over and over and over and over and over again. And then still not know how to access it.
No, without this forum, a lot of people, right here, would have thought 12K were going to be sold. Just like @all_that_glitters still seems to think.
Without this forum, lots of people wouldn't know lots of things. Like Pure, 7:30, ATS, the Mint not being able to be trusted, etc., etc., etc.
You, and you alone, are an all knowing oracle who would know all regardless. Most of the rest of us would be lost without you. And, we wouldn't have you without the forum.
Actually, I said just the opposite about myself as you did in the last paragraph. I didn't call myself an oracle. I said i was irrelevant to people's choices.
And, in your own words, they bought it after it "sold out" on Thursday not because anyone here told them to. Look at the names. It's the "usual suspects".
Find me someone who DIDN'T buy it because of this thread and you may have a point. You've been harping on the missing coins, that should have encouraged caution not buying.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
I relied on the information on the mint website. So far, they haven't exceeded the maximum they set. They are extremely honest as far as I can tell. Of course, I don't feel entitled to know their specific production plans or data. I know they'll realize final mintages eventually. I am able to make decisions from this and buy the coin because I like it and think it will do well based on the information they provided.
This. You and everyone else. I bought the silver because I like it but refuse to pay that $4000+ for the gold. I paid zero attention to sales numbers, ats or anything else.
PURE and Pinehurst bids are useful for people flipping. But except for a few newbies, we all know where to find those numbers. And I hope we didn't talk anyone into flipping because if something goes wrong with the flip, I would feel badly. [Which is why I always lean towards caution. ]
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
I relied on the information on the mint website. So far, they haven't exceeded the maximum they set. They are extremely honest as far as I can tell. Of course, I don't feel entitled to know their specific production plans or data. I know they'll realize final mintages eventually. I am able to make decisions from this and buy the coin because I like it and think it will do well based on the information they provided.
Tell that to @all_that_glitters. They apparently feel misled by the lack of transparency.
You are fine being misled, because you don't rely on anything and don't expect anything. Good for you.
That must make you very easy to please in general. Some of us expect more. From anyone, let alone the federal government.
The Mint knew it was making 8K, and no more, at least as far back as July 28th, when @Rc5280 first reported to the forum that 8K were loaded into ATS. Absolutely no legitimate reason not to share that with the world. Your cracking the code is not a reason everyone shouldn't have the same information.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
The people "paying attention here" did exactly what they would have done if this forum didn't exist.
If you say so. I saw several people who didn't jump in until after it sold out on Thursday. I saw several people not know what ATS was until it was explained to them. Over and over and over and over and over again. And then still not know how to access it.
No, without this forum, a lot of people, right here, would have thought 12K were going to be sold. Just like @all_that_glitters still seems to think.
Without this forum, lots of people wouldn't know lots of things. Like Pure, 7:30, ATS, the Mint not being able to be trusted, etc., etc., etc.
You, and you alone, are an all knowing oracle who would know all regardless. Most of the rest of us would be lost without you. And, we wouldn't have you without the forum.
Actually, I said just the opposite about myself as you did in the last paragraph. I didn't call myself an oracle. I said i was irrelevant to people's choices.
And, in your own words, they bought it after it "sold out" on Thursday not because anyone here told them to. Look at the names. It's the "usual suspects".
Find me someone who DIDN'T buy it because of this thread and you may have a point. You've been harping on the missing coins, that should have encouraged caution not buying.
No. Again, we're arguing for the sake of arguing. Clearly, you did not call yourself an oracle. I did, sarcastically, to make the point that lots of folks get their information here, while you are saying everyone does what they would do anyway, because they are all geniuses like you, and therefore have nothing to learn here.
You are also taking the wrong thing away from my ranting about the lack of transparency. I honestly don't know how else to make to point to people who refuse to see it.
It's as bad to advertise up to 12K, and then stop at 8K when they can sell more, as it is to advertise 100K and then just make 150K because they can sell them. People totally get the lost value in the latter, but fail to acknowledge the lost opportunity in the former if they don't buy based on an advertised mintage that is pure fiction.
Unless they are @all_that_glitters. Then they get it, even if they don't like my word count.
The good news is that people here had a chance to react, on Friday and Saturday. They only had the information because we shared it. Trust me, people here bought because it became clear to them that the mintage would not be 12K.
Lots of people aren't here, and still haven't gotten the memo. And that's not fair.
If the mint does not want to share mintage information in advance, it should stop doing so. But we all know they won't, because if people thought overpriced bullion would be made in unlimited quantities, they'd have no interest.
So they publish numbers. I happen to think they should be accurate. As I said umpteen times, I don't expect them to actually make 10K Superman coins if they can't sell them.
But, if they set the limit at 10K, and there is demand for 10K, I think they have an obligation to make 10K. Many here don't. That's fine. They would probably also be okay with insider trading in the stock market.
Unless, of course, they were not insiders, and would be victimized by the practice. Here, they are savvy enough to be able to figure out what's going on ahead of the rest of the world, so they profit from the opacity that causes the @all_that_glitters of the world to miss out, and don't have a problem with it.
OTOH, having the Mint exercise its prerogative to not stick to its disclosures, and to maybe play games with Product Limits and Mintage Limits to make more of something than expected, would cause those very same people to lose their minds. I've seen it happen. Here on this forum, back in the day, with proof AGEs.
I bought the gold and silver coins as soon as they went on sale. I didn’t care if there was 5000 or 12,000 minted. I didn’t care what anyone said about the coins. I bought them because I really liked them. I’m not trying to make money off them. I plan on keeping them.
I don't always agree with NJ but I think he is correct on this one. The removal of HHL limit is the final clue that leads me to believe these are toast. Everyone had a fair chance to buy these last Thursday if they wanted one. I am very happy to have acquired one. I had planned on buying one for several months for my personal collection and had no intentions on flipping it. Even if these vault to 8-10k in value in the short term I will not sell it. It's a magnificent high relief modern coin and looks quite nice in a box next to my high relief 2024 FH. Both coins are the nicest things the US Mint has made in a long time! Here's my prizes together, please excuse the lint and dust!
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
I relied on the information on the mint website. So far, they haven't exceeded the maximum they set. They are extremely honest as far as I can tell. Of course, I don't feel entitled to know their specific production plans or data. I know they'll realize final mintages eventually. I am able to make decisions from this and buy the coin because I like it and think it will do well based on the information they provided.
Tell that to @all_that_glitters. They apparently feel misled by the lack of transparency.
You are fine being misled, because you don't rely on anything and don't expect anything. Good for you.
That must make you very easy to please in general. Some of us expect more. From anyone, let alone the federal government.
The Mint knew it was making 8K, and no more, at least as far back as July 28th, when @Rc5280 first reported to the forum that 8K were loaded into ATS. Absolutely no legitimate reason not to share that with the world. Your cracking the code is not a reason everyone shouldn't have the same information.
What's your source for this? Oh that's right, you're ASSuming again.
I would venture that the mint planned an initial production run and had a contingent run planned and they might still have one possible. As such they could not make any such statements in good faith. I operate in a world of facts and use the information provided, you operate in a world of assumptions and guesswork. My life is calm, and yours is bitter. To each his own I guess.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
The people "paying attention here" did exactly what they would have done if this forum didn't exist.
If you say so. I saw several people who didn't jump in until after it sold out on Thursday. I saw several people not know what ATS was until it was explained to them. Over and over and over and over and over again. And then still not know how to access it.
No, without this forum, a lot of people, right here, would have thought 12K were going to be sold. Just like @all_that_glitters still seems to think.
Without this forum, lots of people wouldn't know lots of things. Like Pure, 7:30, ATS, the Mint not being able to be trusted, etc., etc., etc.
You, and you alone, are an all knowing oracle who would know all regardless. Most of the rest of us would be lost without you. And, we wouldn't have you without the forum.
Actually, I said just the opposite about myself as you did in the last paragraph. I didn't call myself an oracle. I said i was irrelevant to people's choices.
And, in your own words, they bought it after it "sold out" on Thursday not because anyone here told them to. Look at the names. It's the "usual suspects".
Find me someone who DIDN'T buy it because of this thread and you may have a point. You've been harping on the missing coins, that should have encouraged caution not buying.
Lots of people aren't here, and still haven't gotten the memo. And that's not fair.
They had the same information and opportunities that we had. How is that not fair?
If the mint does not want to share mintage information in advance, it should stop doing so. But we all know they won't, because if people thought overpriced bullion would be made in unlimited quantities, they'd have no interest.
When has the mint ever provided mintages in advance? The tell us product and mintage LIMITS, not the planned production. You have such a difficult time with that concept. The mint doesn't have to produce the limit. the limit is a constraint, not an obligation.
And regarding overpriced bullion in unlimited quantities, they sell millions of ounces of bullion ASEs every year. There's plenty of interest.
So they publish numbers. I happen to think they should be accurate. As I said umpteen times, I don't expect them to actually make 10K Superman coins if they can't sell them.
The numbers are accurate. With a handful of exceptions long ago, they have never violated a limit.
But, if they set the limit at 10K, and there is demand for 10K, I think they have an obligation to make 10K. Many here don't. That's fine. They would probably also be okay with insider trading in the stock market.
You can think what you want, that doesn't make it so.
Unless, of course, they were not insiders, and would be victimized by the practice. Here, they are savvy enough to be able to figure out what's going on ahead of the rest of the world, so they profit from the opacity that causes the @all_that_glitters of the world to miss out, and don't have a problem with it.
OTOH, having the Mint exercise its prerogative to not stick to its disclosures, and to maybe play games with Product Limits and Mintage Limits to make more of something than expected, and those very same people would lose their minds. I've seen it happen. Here on this forum, back in the day, with proof AGEs.
Except for failing to lift the HHL after 24 hours, the mint has adhered to all other information they have reported.
@Bullsitter said:
Thursday 8-21, didn't buy one but watched from the sideline.
Friday 8-22, Mint listed 37 with HHL still in place. I watched it countdown to 10 and bought one.
Saturday 8-23, early morning release (73) with HHL lifted and got three.
All four arrived today and will be on their way to PCGS soon.
.
.About to go eat but got some quick, not so good shots.
.
@Optex said:
I bought the gold and silver coins as soon as they went on sale. I didn’t care if there was 5000 or 12,000 minted. I didn’t care what anyone said about the coins. I bought them because I really liked them. I’m not trying to make money off them. I plan on keeping them.
Good for you. In that case, none of this applies to you.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
RC gave the first ATS number. ATS is not in any way a limit.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
RC gave the first ATS number. ATS is not in any way a limit.
Lol. Which is what he's been complaining about for months....
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
RC gave the first ATS number. ATS is not in any way a limit.
He sure did. Funny how, a month later, it turned out to be the actual number. Not the 12K they published on the web.
As we go back and forth on "limits," it's turning out that the limit is a meaningless number, if they are unwilling to produce it if there is demand. That's my point -- putting up a number that is just a theoretical limit does not help anyone make an informed buying decision.
You act like there was some intervening event between when a production decision was made, likely months ago, when the decision was made to increase that number by 50%, but only for the web page, and then to not take back orders for the balance when they sold out in 3 hours.
But there wasn't. There was just a decision to make 8K, sell 1200 to ABPP based on a limit of 12K, and then to not make the remaining 4K because that would be good for the dealers, but bad for the taxpayers. And to not be transparent about it. Period.
They could do all the above without saying anything at all about "limits." But they choose not to, because the market demands "limits." Seemingly, though, not ones that actually reflect what they intend to make available for purchase. Just "limits."
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
RC gave the first ATS number. ATS is not in any way a limit.
Lol. Which is what he's been complaining about for months....
Yup. But now that I, too, have cracked the code, it's all good. Carry on.
And, huge shout out to @Goldbully for letting us all know that there will not be 100K Navy privies. Apparently, only 72K. Making it even more "hot" than Army or Laser.
@NJCoin said:
But there wasn't. There was just a decision to make 8K, sell 1200 to ABPP based on a limit of 12K, and then to not make the remaining 4K because that would be good for the dealers, but bad for the taxpayers. And to not be transparent about it. Period.
The mint can still strike more coins, they have until mid octoberish to do it, and have done it in the past. They say it is currently unavailable.
I think the chances are low they strike more, but it is possible it happens.
Another example: They may have struck all the coins and only got 8k in packaging, and are waiting on the rest.
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
RC gave the first ATS number. ATS is not in any way a limit.
He sure did. Funny how, a month later, it turned out to be the actual number. Not the 12K they published on the web.
As we go back and forth on "limits," it's turning out that the limit is a meaningless number, if they are unwilling to produce it if there is demand. That's my point -- putting up a number that is just a theoretical limit does not help anyone make an informed buying decision.
The limit isn't meaningless, it's the number they will never exceed. The published limit is the number you can rely on to make your buying decision. If they make less no one should be surprised because it's not they were never obligated or guaranteed they would make the full limit.
You act like there was some intervening event between when a production decision was made, likely months ago, when the decision was made to increase that number by 50%, but only for the web page, and then to not take back orders for the balance when they sold out in 3 hours.
But there wasn't. There was just a decision to make 8K, sell 1200 to ABPP based on a limit of 12K, and then to not make the remaining 4K because that would be good for the dealers, but bad for the taxpayers. And to not be transparent about it. Period.
As far I know you don't work there, so how do you know? You act like you work there and you know that there wasn't an intervening event. As I don't work there I don't pretend to know if there were vendor issues, labor issues, maintenance issues, or competing production runs that necessitated the changing or altering of any plans.
They could do all the above without saying anything at all about "limits." But they choose not to, because the market demands "limits." Seemingly, though, not ones that actually reflect what they intend to make available for purchase. Just "limits."
The mint has never published mintage figures before beginning sales. Why do you expect them to start doing that now?
@all_that_glitters said:
Just got off the phone with the Mint. They are being incredibly shady and tightlipped with information on this. Everything discussed led me to believe the remaining 4500 will be available soon. I'm very disappointed with the US Mint today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
RC gave the first ATS number. ATS is not in any way a limit.
Lol. Which is what he's been complaining about for months....
Yup. But now that I, too, have cracked the code, it's all good. Carry on.
And, huge shout out to @Goldbully for letting us all know that there will not be 100K Navy privies. Apparently, only 72K. Making it even more "hot" than Army or Laser.
If you want to operate on that assumption and then become irate and bash the mint again when they mint and sell the full limit go ahead, If you were prudent you'd operate on an expectation of 100k being minted and be glad you got some if they don't make them all.
@NJCoin said:
But there wasn't. There was just a decision to make 8K, sell 1200 to ABPP based on a limit of 12K, and then to not make the remaining 4K because that would be good for the dealers, but bad for the taxpayers. And to not be transparent about it. Period.
The mint can still strike more coins, they have until mid octoberish to do it, and have done it in the past. They say it is currently unavailable.
I think the chances are low they strike more, but it is possible it happens.
Another example: They may have struck all the coins and only got 8k in packaging, and are waiting on the rest.
Yeah. People keep saying this. Linus and the pumpkin patch.
It's not about packaging. It's never about packaging. We are not in a pandemic, with supply chain issues.
Production is planned out months in advance. We know EXACTLY what they do when they underestimate demand and choose to make more. They place the item on Back Order.
They just did it with the laser privies. They are not making more of these. If they had any intention of doing so, they would not have lifted the HHL before giving people who missed them a chance to get one. They are done. 8K.
@NJCoin said:
Production is planned out months in advance. We know EXACTLY what they do when they underestimate demand and choose to make more. They place the item on Back Order.
I will say this: It is very odd that the mint puts up a limit of 12k, sells bulk at that limit, and then only strikes 8k coins. That doesn't sound like something in planning for months.
This is like building a house and only buying 2/3 of the studs needed for the walls.
@NJCoin said:
Production is planned out months in advance. We know EXACTLY what they do when they underestimate demand and choose to make more. They place the item on Back Order.
I will say this: It is very odd that the mint puts up a limit of 12k, sells bulk at that limit, and then only strikes 8k coins. That doesn't sound like something in planning for months.
This is like building a house and only buying 2/3 of the studs needed for the walls.
There are numerous possible reasons for it. Planchet availability. Packaging. Other production demands. Lack of tooling (die lifetime shorter than expected). An assessment of actual demand (they won't make more than they can sell). Etc. Things happen.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@NJCoin said:
Production is planned out months in advance. We know EXACTLY what they do when they underestimate demand and choose to make more. They place the item on Back Order.
I will say this: It is very odd that the mint puts up a limit of 12k, sells bulk at that limit, and then only strikes 8k coins. That doesn't sound like something in planning for months.
This is like building a house and only buying 2/3 of the studs needed for the walls.
I'm not sure how to make your analogy work, because this isn't about a 2/3 completed house. It's about taking care of the Mint's best customers, the ABPP participants.
So the Mint sells bulk at an artificial limit they have no intention of hitting, for no reason other than to give them a greater percentage than advertised. Even though there is no published or statutory percent for the ABPP. They could conceivably get 100% if the Mint so chose.
But, for whatever political reason, the Mint seems to want to keep it to around 10%. So they get 10% of 12K, rather than 15% of 8K.
But, yeah, it was planned all along. No other reason Laser privy went to Back Order when the initial quantity made sold out on the first day while the same exact thing did not happen with these, THE VERY NEXT DAY.
@jmlanzaf said:
There are numerous possible reasons for it. Planchet availability. Packaging. Other production demands. Lack of tooling (die lifetime shorter than expected). An assessment of actual demand (they won't make more than they can sell). Etc. Things happen.
But but this was suppose to be planned out months ahead of time.
@NJCoin said:
But, yeah, it was planned all along. No other reason Laser privy went to Back Order when the initial quantity made sold out on the first day while the same exact thing did not happen with these, THE VERY NEXT DAY.
So why does the US mint have a HHL of 1 for the batman coins and medals, when superman has bombed.
The superman coin and medals showed the demand is not there, yet they still insist on acting like batman, wonder woman, and the rest will be a hot seller.
The mint is the same, and will always be like this.
The mint should not have a HHL on any of the comic coins and medals after the first one bombed.
With this coin, they could have sold 12k but probably went by declining sales of all products and figured sales would be about 70% of the last issue, so cut product on that assumption alone. They never ran the math on the product or past issues pricing on Ebay to see what actual demand might be. I posted the numbers and showed demand is there for over 12k coins. Anyway I also don't think they strike more, and this is the final amount with one caveat. The mint has done it before and made more.
@NJCoin said:
Production is planned out months in advance. We know EXACTLY what they do when they underestimate demand and choose to make more. They place the item on Back Order.
I will say this: It is very odd that the mint puts up a limit of 12k, sells bulk at that limit, and then only strikes 8k coins. That doesn't sound like something in planning for months.
This is like building a house and only buying 2/3 of the studs needed for the walls.
There are numerous possible reasons for it. Planchet availability. Packaging. Other production demands. Lack of tooling (die lifetime shorter than expected). An assessment of actual demand (they won't make more than they can sell). Etc. Things happen.
Whatever. They loaded 8K into ATS no later than July 28th. They posted a mintage limit of 12K shortly thereafter.
They sold 1200 to ABPP based on the 12K. They never made the full 12K available for sale. To this day.
In hindsight, 8K was the number. As 72K now likely is for the Navy privy. Why they can't just tell us the truth is beyond me.
Whatever their reasons, and whenever a final decision was made, it was clearly before 8/21, because they did not go to Back Order on 8/21 when the 5800 they loaded into ATS sold out on that day. And they lifted the HHL, right on schedule, at noon on 8/22.
They have no problem modifying HHLs when the situation warrants, and posting updated, correct information on the appropriate web page. That simply does not apply here.
Sometimes the limit is the real number they are ready, willing and able to produce. Other times it is not.
Without rhyme, reason or transparency. It will come back to bite them when people have had enough and decide to move on from modern Mint masterpieces, special labels, and second class treatment.
Because you can be sure the ABPP know exactly what is going on when they spend their money. It's just me who is left in the dark, reading tea leaves and ATS HTML code.
@NJCoin said:
But, yeah, it was planned all along. No other reason Laser privy went to Back Order when the initial quantity made sold out on the first day while the same exact thing did not happen with these, THE VERY NEXT DAY.
So why does the US mint have a HHL of 1 for the batman coins and medals, when superman has bombed.
The superman coin and medals showed the demand is not there, yet they still insist on acting like batman, wonder woman, and the rest will be a hot seller.
The mint is the same, and will always be like this.
The mint should not have a HHL on any of the comic coins and medals after the first one bombed.
With this coin, they could have sold 12k but probably went by declining sales of all products and figured sales would be about 70% of the last issue, so cut product on that assumption alone. They never ran the math on the product or past issues pricing on Ebay to see what actual demand might be. I posted the numbers and showed demand is there for over 12k coins. Anyway I also don't think they strike more, and this is the final amount with one caveat. The mint has done it before and made more.
Rampant optimism. They likely agreed to it contractually with DC, so they are sticking with it. At least for 2025.
Because they absolutely have shown flexibility in the past with HHLs, adjusting them both up and down as the situation has warranted. If they had flexibility here, they'd be adjusting the mintage, pricing, or both. But they can't.
Almost certainly because they have a partner and a contract. Not because we know more than they do about how Batman is going to do with a 10K mintage and a $2K per ounce premium to spot gold.
What you are saying about High Relief American Liberty is simply not true. Because each series stands on its own, and no one knows this better than the Mint. AGE is not FH, is not Gold Sac, is not Comic Art Coin, is not High Relief American Liberty.
They can decide to do whatever they want with production. No reason not to be transparent.
8K, in hindsight, was always the number. Yet they still have 12K on the website.
Yes, limit, not final production. But still.
It's a limit they had no intention to reach under any circumstance. Don't need to be a mind reader to know that. So, it's not really a limit. It's a fiction.
@NJCoin said:
Without rhyme, reason or transparency. It will come back to bite them when people have had enough and decide to move on from modern Mint masterpieces, special labels, and second class treatment.
Actually it has already bitten them, that is why sales are declining.
However, that is good for those who are still buying, as we are now getting into mintages that bring premiums. It has taken almost 16 years to get here.
@NJCoin said:
Rampant optimism. They likely agreed to it contractually with DC, so they are sticking with it. At least for 2025.
I seriously doubt that DC would limit the sales of coins contractually when they get paid a commission per coin.
Correct. The Mint and DC made a bad deal, and there is no reason for DC to accept a lower mintage. They could have sold far more, and both made more money, at a lower price point.
But they were greedy, and thought the market would support what they wanted to do, so here they are. Look for future releases to have lower mintages, and/or lower premiums. Otherwise, the last 3 coins will be lucky to break 2500 in sales.
@NJCoin said:
Without rhyme, reason or transparency. It will come back to bite them when people have had enough and decide to move on from modern Mint masterpieces, special labels, and second class treatment.
Actually it has already bitten them, that is why sales are declining.
However, that is good for those who are still buying, as we are now getting into mintages that bring premiums. It has taken almost 16 years to get here.
No. By bitten them I mean they won't be able to sell out whatever they chose to produce. Which will mean no premium, no matter how low the mintage, because the public will have lost interest. Like the First Spouse coins. Not like this.
The market actually has interest in this. If 8K is the magic number, great. Just publish it, and then stick to it. No games.
@jmlanzaf said:
There are numerous possible reasons for it. Planchet availability. Packaging. Other production demands. Lack of tooling (die lifetime shorter than expected). An assessment of actual demand (they won't make more than they can sell). Etc. Things happen.
But but this was suppose to be planned out months ahead of time.
Even if you plan months ahead, companies don't put things into stock months ahead. You also would have little idea about things like die lifetime until you actually started minting. And, of course, people quit and go on parental leave which can affect throughput. Other priorities can arise that cause a shift in resources (collector coins are low on the priority list for the Mint).
Tell your boss that the first time you are late that he should fire you.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@NJCoin said:
But, yeah, it was planned all along. No other reason Laser privy went to Back Order when the initial quantity made sold out on the first day while the same exact thing did not happen with these, THE VERY NEXT DAY.
So why does the US mint have a HHL of 1 for the batman coins and medals, when superman has bombed.
The superman coin and medals showed the demand is not there, yet they still insist on acting like batman, wonder woman, and the rest will be a hot seller.
The mint is the same, and will always be like this.
The mint should not have a HHL on any of the comic coins and medals after the first one bombed.
With this coin, they could have sold 12k but probably went by declining sales of all products and figured sales would be about 70% of the last issue, so cut product on that assumption alone. They never ran the math on the product or past issues pricing on Ebay to see what actual demand might be. I posted the numbers and showed demand is there for over 12k coins. Anyway I also don't think they strike more, and this is the final amount with one caveat. The mint has done it before and made more.
Actually, Batman is a lot more popular than Superman.
You're also trying to have it both ways. You think the Mint is pushing sales by underselling issues, HHL, etc. but you think those same tricks should be removed because they are decreasing sales???
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Comments
And if they go off script, you'll really get bad information. Lol
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Have to admit, beautiful design and mint execution. If it was a couple of hundred over spot would have bought a couple. They nailed the sunflower. Mine popped Sunday and the bees are all over today.
Just why did ANYTHING discussed lead you to believe the remaining 4500 would be available soon? I've been railing about them being opaque and shady all along, and most people replying have simply had no issue with it, as long as they don't make more than the maximum.
Just what did you read, see or hear in that discussion that led you to believe they would make 5800 available on the web at release, have them sell out and go Unavailable in a few hours, have whatever you thought would "be available soon" not made available right then and there, on a Back Order basis or otherwise, have them not show up the next day, have the HHL lifted the next day, and have them not show up in the few days thereafter, but actually show up at some random point in the future?
That potential point came and went Thursday afternoon. Sorry you didn't get the memo, or failed to understand the discussion. Those who did jumped on these when they briefly popped up Friday and Saturday morning.
They are now very happy that people like you believed the maximum number the Mint published, and took it on faith that they would make that number if they could sell that number, and would not intentionally mislead you for no apparent reason. Because the fact that you, and thousands others like you, are now shut out makes their purchases more valuable. Which is all most people care about.
Pro tip -- in the future, don't waste your time on "the phone with the Mint." You are not speaking with a production manager on the factory floor, or a senior official in Washington, DC.
You are talking to a low wage call center employee, who is neither shady nor tight lipped. They tell you what they know -- nothing. They are there only to take orders or to deal with issues related to already placed orders. Not to give you insights on production levels.
I'll bet you ANYTHING that does not happen. ANYTHING.
Didn't happen with FH. Gold or silver.
Didn't happen with Superman. Didn't happen with Gold Sac.
Won't happen here. ANYTHING!!!!
Actually, it's extremely efficient. The Mint has production facilities in West Point, Philadelphia, San Fransisco and Denver. It has one fulfillment center. Run by an outside contractor.
The Mint manufactures. It does not warehouse, ship, or handle customer service. Much more efficient to contract that out. Nabisco also doesn't ship Oreos, one package at a time, from its bakeries to every grocery store in the country.
The Mint is a series of several large government production facilities. It is not the world's largest B&M coin dealer.
Or a retail fulfillment center. It would be very inefficient to try to set one up, with federal employees, at one or several of the production facilities.
So they don't. Even if you don't understanding the economics of sending millions of units of factory output to a single central distribution point for shipping to the final destination. The anal retentive CPA in you should ask itself why every single large producer of anything in the world does the exact same thing if it's so inefficient.
Don't ever believe anyone if they tell you that you aren't cute when you're confused.
I don't know what's funnier (1) you compared shipping a coin that cost $4,265 to shipping a package of Oreos (2) you just pretend that if the government is doing something then it must be very efficient or (3) you engage in a strawman argument by acting like I wanted each mint to handle its own shipping (no one said anything about that).
Look back at my original comment about the marginal cost between using a local fulfillment house and one 1,500 miles away. A manufacturer 50 miles outside NYC can't find a logistics company with more than one location?
How about we drop this fascinating discussion instead of derailing the thread even more.
They were definitely reading off a script. Which is extremely shady. We all know that communication is key to establishing any worthwhile relationship. Upfront, honest, communication. If the US Mint can't do this why are we even bothering buying 'collectible bullion"?
You use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
Since you have no idea what their "marginal cost" is to ship from Philadelphia. West Point, Denver and San Fransisco to Dallas, as opposed to paying to maintain a series of fulfillment centers around the country closer to each production facility, and then to have to coordinate customer service depending on where each product in an order was produced, and then to have to coordinate when coins in a single product are produced at multiple sites, you have no point to make, beyond impressing us all with your use of the term "marginal," since you apparently don't get enough chances to use it outside of work.
And, of course, to scold those who dare challenge you for derailing a thread you yourself derailed. You have no idea how efficient or inefficient PFS is.
As an American taxpayer, I'd be willing to place a significant wager that having them do fulfillment, from a single location, is far more efficient than leaving it in the hands of government employees. Or spreading it around the country.
I'd also bet that someone pretty high up at the Mint came to the exact same conclusion. Likely with an expensive consultant report to back it up. If you disagree, maybe you should reach out to them and offer your thoughts, since I seriously doubt they monitor this forum.
Maybe. But I'm not the one sitting with Linus in the pumpkin patch waiting for the missing 4500 coins.
If you took the time to read it, you'd realize I was agreeing with you. Maybe this is why your takeaway from the conversation was that another 4500 coins were going to be hitting the market.
They're not. Take it from me.
I'm not sitting in a PFS call center, so I actually know. Final sales are going to be something between what has already been reported and the 8K initially posted to ATS. Not the 12K they advertised as a maximum.
Yes. You should get all your information from unpaid forum posters.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
If it aint gold...must be silver!!!
Laugh all you want. The people paying attention here did fine. This time at least, the conversation, speculation, and observations were spot on.
Those who relied on what the Mint posted on its website, not so much. Don't believe me? Just ask @all_that_glitters.
The people "paying attention here" did exactly what they would have done if this forum didn't exist.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
If you say so. I saw several people who didn't jump in until after it sold out on Thursday. I saw several people not know what ATS was until it was explained to them. Over and over and over and over and over again. And then still not know how to access it.
No, without this forum, a lot of people, right here, would have thought 12K were going to be sold. Just like @all_that_glitters still seems to think.
Without this forum, lots of people wouldn't know lots of things. Like Pure, 7:30, ATS, the Mint not being able to be trusted, etc., etc., etc.
You, and you alone, are an all knowing oracle who would know all regardless. Most of the rest of us would be lost without you. And, we wouldn't have you without the forum.
I relied on the information on the mint website. So far, they haven't exceeded the maximum they set. They are extremely honest as far as I can tell. Of course, I don't feel entitled to know their specific production plans or data. I know they'll realize final mintages eventually. I am able to make decisions from this and buy the coin because I like it and think it will do well based on the information they provided.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Actually, I said just the opposite about myself as you did in the last paragraph. I didn't call myself an oracle. I said i was irrelevant to people's choices.
And, in your own words, they bought it after it "sold out" on Thursday not because anyone here told them to. Look at the names. It's the "usual suspects".
Find me someone who DIDN'T buy it because of this thread and you may have a point. You've been harping on the missing coins, that should have encouraged caution not buying.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
This. You and everyone else. I bought the silver because I like it but refuse to pay that $4000+ for the gold. I paid zero attention to sales numbers, ats or anything else.
PURE and Pinehurst bids are useful for people flipping. But except for a few newbies, we all know where to find those numbers. And I hope we didn't talk anyone into flipping because if something goes wrong with the flip, I would feel badly. [Which is why I always lean towards caution. ]
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Tell that to @all_that_glitters. They apparently feel misled by the lack of transparency.
You are fine being misled, because you don't rely on anything and don't expect anything. Good for you.
That must make you very easy to please in general. Some of us expect more. From anyone, let alone the federal government.
The Mint knew it was making 8K, and no more, at least as far back as July 28th, when @Rc5280 first reported to the forum that 8K were loaded into ATS. Absolutely no legitimate reason not to share that with the world. Your cracking the code is not a reason everyone shouldn't have the same information.
No. Again, we're arguing for the sake of arguing. Clearly, you did not call yourself an oracle. I did, sarcastically, to make the point that lots of folks get their information here, while you are saying everyone does what they would do anyway, because they are all geniuses like you, and therefore have nothing to learn here.
You are also taking the wrong thing away from my ranting about the lack of transparency. I honestly don't know how else to make to point to people who refuse to see it.
It's as bad to advertise up to 12K, and then stop at 8K when they can sell more, as it is to advertise 100K and then just make 150K because they can sell them. People totally get the lost value in the latter, but fail to acknowledge the lost opportunity in the former if they don't buy based on an advertised mintage that is pure fiction.
Unless they are @all_that_glitters. Then they get it, even if they don't like my word count.
The good news is that people here had a chance to react, on Friday and Saturday. They only had the information because we shared it. Trust me, people here bought because it became clear to them that the mintage would not be 12K.
Lots of people aren't here, and still haven't gotten the memo. And that's not fair.
If the mint does not want to share mintage information in advance, it should stop doing so. But we all know they won't, because if people thought overpriced bullion would be made in unlimited quantities, they'd have no interest.
So they publish numbers. I happen to think they should be accurate. As I said umpteen times, I don't expect them to actually make 10K Superman coins if they can't sell them.
But, if they set the limit at 10K, and there is demand for 10K, I think they have an obligation to make 10K. Many here don't. That's fine. They would probably also be okay with insider trading in the stock market.
Unless, of course, they were not insiders, and would be victimized by the practice. Here, they are savvy enough to be able to figure out what's going on ahead of the rest of the world, so they profit from the opacity that causes the @all_that_glitters of the world to miss out, and don't have a problem with it.
OTOH, having the Mint exercise its prerogative to not stick to its disclosures, and to maybe play games with Product Limits and Mintage Limits to make more of something than expected, would cause those very same people to lose their minds. I've seen it happen. Here on this forum, back in the day, with proof AGEs.
I bought the gold and silver coins as soon as they went on sale. I didn’t care if there was 5000 or 12,000 minted. I didn’t care what anyone said about the coins. I bought them because I really liked them. I’m not trying to make money off them. I plan on keeping them.
I don't always agree with NJ but I think he is correct on this one. The removal of HHL limit is the final clue that leads me to believe these are toast. Everyone had a fair chance to buy these last Thursday if they wanted one. I am very happy to have acquired one. I had planned on buying one for several months for my personal collection and had no intentions on flipping it. Even if these vault to 8-10k in value in the short term I will not sell it. It's a magnificent high relief modern coin and looks quite nice in a box next to my high relief 2024 FH. Both coins are the nicest things the US Mint has made in a long time! Here's my prizes together, please excuse the lint and dust!
What's your source for this? Oh that's right, you're ASSuming again.
I would venture that the mint planned an initial production run and had a contingent run planned and they might still have one possible. As such they could not make any such statements in good faith. I operate in a world of facts and use the information provided, you operate in a world of assumptions and guesswork. My life is calm, and yours is bitter. To each his own I guess.
They had the same information and opportunities that we had. How is that not fair?
When has the mint ever provided mintages in advance? The tell us product and mintage LIMITS, not the planned production. You have such a difficult time with that concept. The mint doesn't have to produce the limit. the limit is a constraint, not an obligation.
And regarding overpriced bullion in unlimited quantities, they sell millions of ounces of bullion ASEs every year. There's plenty of interest.
The numbers are accurate. With a handful of exceptions long ago, they have never violated a limit.
You can think what you want, that doesn't make it so.
Except for failing to lift the HHL after 24 hours, the mint has adhered to all other information they have reported.
http://ProofCollection.Net
BTW, there are two units back up at Pure for around $4450. That's a great deal.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I call, "bullsitter" !! haha
nice herd !
Good for you. In that case, none of this applies to you.
That's why it is increasingly easier(for me) to completely skip over his insulting and condescending posts at every turn.
The Mint bashing and baseless claims of knowing Mint policy on every release is ridiculous.
Fair enough. But it turns out that you are the one who first uncovered the actual 8K limit for us here. Thanks for providing us with information the Mint did not think was worth shouting loudly and proudly.
RC gave the first ATS number. ATS is not in any way a limit.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Lol. Which is what he's been complaining about for months....
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
He sure did. Funny how, a month later, it turned out to be the actual number. Not the 12K they published on the web.
As we go back and forth on "limits," it's turning out that the limit is a meaningless number, if they are unwilling to produce it if there is demand. That's my point -- putting up a number that is just a theoretical limit does not help anyone make an informed buying decision.
You act like there was some intervening event between when a production decision was made, likely months ago, when the decision was made to increase that number by 50%, but only for the web page, and then to not take back orders for the balance when they sold out in 3 hours.
But there wasn't. There was just a decision to make 8K, sell 1200 to ABPP based on a limit of 12K, and then to not make the remaining 4K because that would be good for the dealers, but bad for the taxpayers. And to not be transparent about it. Period.
They could do all the above without saying anything at all about "limits." But they choose not to, because the market demands "limits." Seemingly, though, not ones that actually reflect what they intend to make available for purchase. Just "limits."
Yup. But now that I, too, have cracked the code, it's all good. Carry on.
And, huge shout out to @Goldbully for letting us all know that there will not be 100K Navy privies. Apparently, only 72K. Making it even more "hot" than Army or Laser.
The mint can still strike more coins, they have until mid octoberish to do it, and have done it in the past. They say it is currently unavailable.
I think the chances are low they strike more, but it is possible it happens.
Another example: They may have struck all the coins and only got 8k in packaging, and are waiting on the rest.
The limit isn't meaningless, it's the number they will never exceed. The published limit is the number you can rely on to make your buying decision. If they make less no one should be surprised because it's not they were never obligated or guaranteed they would make the full limit.
As far I know you don't work there, so how do you know? You act like you work there and you know that there wasn't an intervening event. As I don't work there I don't pretend to know if there were vendor issues, labor issues, maintenance issues, or competing production runs that necessitated the changing or altering of any plans.
The mint has never published mintage figures before beginning sales. Why do you expect them to start doing that now?
If you want to operate on that assumption and then become irate and bash the mint again when they mint and sell the full limit go ahead, If you were prudent you'd operate on an expectation of 100k being minted and be glad you got some if they don't make them all.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Yeah. People keep saying this. Linus and the pumpkin patch.
It's not about packaging. It's never about packaging. We are not in a pandemic, with supply chain issues.
Production is planned out months in advance. We know EXACTLY what they do when they underestimate demand and choose to make more. They place the item on Back Order.
They just did it with the laser privies. They are not making more of these. If they had any intention of doing so, they would not have lifted the HHL before giving people who missed them a chance to get one. They are done. 8K.
I will say this: It is very odd that the mint puts up a limit of 12k, sells bulk at that limit, and then only strikes 8k coins. That doesn't sound like something in planning for months.
This is like building a house and only buying 2/3 of the studs needed for the walls.
There are numerous possible reasons for it. Planchet availability. Packaging. Other production demands. Lack of tooling (die lifetime shorter than expected). An assessment of actual demand (they won't make more than they can sell). Etc. Things happen.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I'm not sure how to make your analogy work, because this isn't about a 2/3 completed house. It's about taking care of the Mint's best customers, the ABPP participants.
So the Mint sells bulk at an artificial limit they have no intention of hitting, for no reason other than to give them a greater percentage than advertised. Even though there is no published or statutory percent for the ABPP. They could conceivably get 100% if the Mint so chose.
But, for whatever political reason, the Mint seems to want to keep it to around 10%. So they get 10% of 12K, rather than 15% of 8K.
But, yeah, it was planned all along. No other reason Laser privy went to Back Order when the initial quantity made sold out on the first day while the same exact thing did not happen with these, THE VERY NEXT DAY.
But but this was suppose to be planned out months ahead of time.
On PURE lowest ask is $4790 today. I placed a buy order yesterday at $4450. Hope it works out.
4450? someone's reject?
So why does the US mint have a HHL of 1 for the batman coins and medals, when superman has bombed.
The superman coin and medals showed the demand is not there, yet they still insist on acting like batman, wonder woman, and the rest will be a hot seller.
The mint is the same, and will always be like this.
The mint should not have a HHL on any of the comic coins and medals after the first one bombed.
With this coin, they could have sold 12k but probably went by declining sales of all products and figured sales would be about 70% of the last issue, so cut product on that assumption alone. They never ran the math on the product or past issues pricing on Ebay to see what actual demand might be. I posted the numbers and showed demand is there for over 12k coins. Anyway I also don't think they strike more, and this is the final amount with one caveat. The mint has done it before and made more.
Whatever. They loaded 8K into ATS no later than July 28th. They posted a mintage limit of 12K shortly thereafter.
They sold 1200 to ABPP based on the 12K. They never made the full 12K available for sale. To this day.
In hindsight, 8K was the number. As 72K now likely is for the Navy privy. Why they can't just tell us the truth is beyond me.
Whatever their reasons, and whenever a final decision was made, it was clearly before 8/21, because they did not go to Back Order on 8/21 when the 5800 they loaded into ATS sold out on that day. And they lifted the HHL, right on schedule, at noon on 8/22.
They have no problem modifying HHLs when the situation warrants, and posting updated, correct information on the appropriate web page. That simply does not apply here.
Sometimes the limit is the real number they are ready, willing and able to produce. Other times it is not.
Without rhyme, reason or transparency. It will come back to bite them when people have had enough and decide to move on from modern Mint masterpieces, special labels, and second class treatment.
Because you can be sure the ABPP know exactly what is going on when they spend their money. It's just me who is left in the dark, reading tea leaves and ATS HTML code.
Rampant optimism. They likely agreed to it contractually with DC, so they are sticking with it. At least for 2025.
Because they absolutely have shown flexibility in the past with HHLs, adjusting them both up and down as the situation has warranted. If they had flexibility here, they'd be adjusting the mintage, pricing, or both. But they can't.
Almost certainly because they have a partner and a contract. Not because we know more than they do about how Batman is going to do with a 10K mintage and a $2K per ounce premium to spot gold.
What you are saying about High Relief American Liberty is simply not true. Because each series stands on its own, and no one knows this better than the Mint. AGE is not FH, is not Gold Sac, is not Comic Art Coin, is not High Relief American Liberty.
They can decide to do whatever they want with production. No reason not to be transparent.
8K, in hindsight, was always the number. Yet they still have 12K on the website.
Yes, limit, not final production. But still.
It's a limit they had no intention to reach under any circumstance. Don't need to be a mind reader to know that. So, it's not really a limit. It's a fiction.
I seriously doubt that DC would limit the sales of coins contractually when they get paid a commission per coin.
Actually it has already bitten them, that is why sales are declining.
However, that is good for those who are still buying, as we are now getting into mintages that bring premiums. It has taken almost 16 years to get here.
Correct. The Mint and DC made a bad deal, and there is no reason for DC to accept a lower mintage. They could have sold far more, and both made more money, at a lower price point.
But they were greedy, and thought the market would support what they wanted to do, so here they are. Look for future releases to have lower mintages, and/or lower premiums. Otherwise, the last 3 coins will be lucky to break 2500 in sales.
No. By bitten them I mean they won't be able to sell out whatever they chose to produce. Which will mean no premium, no matter how low the mintage, because the public will have lost interest. Like the First Spouse coins. Not like this.
The market actually has interest in this. If 8K is the magic number, great. Just publish it, and then stick to it. No games.
Even if you plan months ahead, companies don't put things into stock months ahead. You also would have little idea about things like die lifetime until you actually started minting. And, of course, people quit and go on parental leave which can affect throughput. Other priorities can arise that cause a shift in resources (collector coins are low on the priority list for the Mint).
Tell your boss that the first time you are late that he should fire you.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Actually, Batman is a lot more popular than Superman.
You're also trying to have it both ways. You think the Mint is pushing sales by underselling issues, HHL, etc. but you think those same tricks should be removed because they are decreasing sales???
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.