@Rc5280 said:
What a success for the Mint and the collectors with this one.
Beautiful coin & medals.
No shenanigans whatsoever, with full transparency from start to finish, as usual.
Are you trying to get him going? Lol
No, but if he steps out of his Mint Truther Bubble, and get's a sense of what 98% of the rest of us think, maybe he'll glean some value out of it. Doubtful, but anything is possible?
I received both gold and silver today, both beautiful, no milk spots, no lint, no anything but a beautiful, well designed and crafted coin. Good job US Mint.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
Mind reader...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
They most likely make what then can make in a production cycle and move on to the next thing. They could care less about posting real time production numbers, until audited. It is the governemnt after all. They have the monoply.
If they did, it could go just as bad. Say they have a limit of 60K, they produce 30K. So on the website the list producation 30K of 60K. Later in the year , oh we just made 30K more before the end of the year. People would still be unhappy.
Hi! First time poster.
On August 21 just 5285 were available to sell, and I’m happy I got one.
But 7952 have been sold.
So were the other 2667 coins, minus whatever the mint sold at Oklahoma City,
never made available to the general public? Thanks
@RAWcoin said:
Hi! First time poster.
On August 21 just 5285 were available to sell, and I’m happy I got one.
But 7952 have been sold.
So were the other 2667 coins, minus whatever the mint sold at Oklahoma City,
never made available to the general public? Thanks
There is a list of ABPP. Authorized Purchasers who commit to volume and get a guaranteed amount if they do. the bulk of that 2667 went to them. Only 100 were brought to OK City according to reports.
the mint sales counters use the same website and receive from the same fulfillment centers we do. the 100 the mint sold are already and automatically counted
The Big boys(ABPP's) were awarded a total of 2000 coins as a Product Limit. They ordered 1976 of them with a 5% premium attached to get them in advance. The remaining 24 coins are still posted as ats on the AB's page.
8/12 was the cutoff date for the Big's to place their early orders, and the Mint sales report on 8/17 reflects those 1976 coins sold.
The public wasn't able to purchase the remaining coins online, at Mint sales counters, or at the show until 8/21.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
The mintage limit is determined in advance of production. Their market analysis or other obligations will change things later. There is ZERO reason for them to create a "fictional limit" higher than their planned production run. They end up both selling fewer units as well a advertising a coin that appears less scarce.
But it's fun to make up conspiracy theories. Did you know LBJ had Kennedy killed? LBJ was actually a body snatching alien who landed in Roswell and JFK found out about it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Some products, like certain ASE's, Morgan and Peace Proof's have an additional Big Boy page.
The 40 coin trays available to the Bigs carries an "040" Suffix. The NBPP's have access to the 040 products I believe.
Some products, like certain ASE's, Morgan and Peace Proof's have an additional Big Boy page.
The 40 coin trays available to the Bigs carries an "040" Suffix. The NBPP's have access to the 040 products I believe.
Some products, like certain ASE's, Morgan and Peace Proof's have an additional Big Boy page.
The 40 coin trays available to the Bigs carries an "040" Suffix. The NBPP's have access to the 040 products I believe.
They did buy 6k before next week's release, but those might be the Subscriptions that were posted, more to come next report I'm sure...
25XF - 2025 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 6,043 - 9/1/2025 Report.
Our in-house "Coin Whisperer" doesn't appear to be interested in the PF Porgans either - Not Hot Enough!
Some products, like certain ASE's, Morgan and Peace Proof's have an additional Big Boy page.
The 40 coin trays available to the Bigs carries an "040" Suffix. The NBPP's have access to the 040 products I believe.
They did buy 6k before next week's release, but those might be the Subscriptions that were posted, more to come next report I'm sure...
25XF - 2025 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 6,043 - 9/1/2025 Report.
Our in-house "Coin Whisperer" doesn't appear to be interested in the PF Porgans either - Not Hot Enough!
I was referring to the high relief gold
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
The mintage limit is determined in advance of production. Their market analysis or other obligations will change things later. There is ZERO reason for them to create a "fictional limit" higher than their planned production run. They end up both selling fewer units as well a advertising a coin that appears less scarce.
But it's fun to make up conspiracy theories. Did you know LBJ had Kennedy killed? LBJ was actually a body snatching alien who landed in Roswell and JFK found out about it.
There is similarly ZERO reason for them not communicate accurate information if "their market analysis or other obligations will change things later." The certainly have no problem moving HHLs up and down as the situation warrants. And letting us know about it. They do actually know how to edit their web pages in real time.
I don't know WHY they choose to be opaque, but they do. There is no good reason. The best I can come up with is justifying a higher ABPP allocation without flat out announcing a higher ABPP allocation.
For the silver FH privies, it was to give the ABPPs additional lottery prizes. Conspiracy or not, they announced a mintage limit of 75K, but only seeded 50K with privies. Knowing full well, before release, that the limit was 50K, not 75K. And failing to communicate that until weeks later.
But, it is very clear they do this for some releases and not for others. Without rhyme or reason. American Liberty gets a short strike. Gold Sacagawea does not. And, every time they do it when there is a quick sell out, they are leaving money on the table. So, there is no good reason to do it.
The limits they publish are, by definition, fictional, because there is a different, unpublished, lower limit that is the one they actually mint to. It is what it is, and they have every right to do it.
But it is not right. Again, when the time comes that people here are adversely impacted, I'm sure they'll have a different take on it.
Some products, like certain ASE's, Morgan and Peace Proof's have an additional Big Boy page.
The 40 coin trays available to the Bigs carries an "040" Suffix. The NBPP's have access to the 040 products I believe.
They did buy 6k before next week's release, but those might be the Subscriptions that were posted, more to come next report I'm sure...
25XF - 2025 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 6,043 - 9/1/2025 Report.
Our in-house "Coin Whisperer" doesn't appear to be interested in the PF Porgans either - Not Hot Enough!
I was referring to the high relief gold
There was a 3pm ET Big Boy cutoff on 8/12, their final day to order the Sunflowers.
There was a flurry in the final minutes, and at the buzzer there were 24 left 'on the table'. Too little too late?
I periodically check the AB ats over there, no change as of yet.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
As long as they don't exceed the limit there's no dishonesty or fiction.
You don't because you keep calling it dishonest and misleading even though the mint has not exceeded the limit. Honoring the published limit sounds like the definition of trustworthy and reliable. Do you know what fiction is? It certainly isn't publishing a limit and staying under it.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
I don't care what the ATS number is. I base my decisions based on the published limits, as the mint intends. If they make less that's a bonus I guess. I believe they always make at least a few less than the limit.
The mint has never released actual mintages until years after they were done selling coins. While I don't disagree it would be nice to have information, why do you feel entitled to demand a change to established procedures? Why do you think they know the mintage that far in advance when they don't even publish official numbers until months or years after sales are complete?
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
The mintage limit is determined in advance of production. Their market analysis or other obligations will change things later. There is ZERO reason for them to create a "fictional limit" higher than their planned production run. They end up both selling fewer units as well a advertising a coin that appears less scarce.
But it's fun to make up conspiracy theories. Did you know LBJ had Kennedy killed? LBJ was actually a body snatching alien who landed in Roswell and JFK found out about it.
There is similarly ZERO reason for them not communicate accurate information if "their market analysis or other obligations will change things later." The certainly have no problem moving HHLs up and down as the situation warrants. And letting us know about it. They do actually know how to edit their web pages in real time.
The information is always accurate. But if you're talking about communicating production plans and data, they've never done this and probably with good reason. If they planned 10k but the machine breaks down and they're only able to produce a fraction of that, I can imagine the mint doesn't want to keep answering questions about what happened and explaining how their machine broke or any of the other 100 possible things that break down or hinder production unexpectedly.
I don't know WHY they choose to be opaque, but they do. There is no good reason. The best I can come up with is justifying a higher ABPP allocation without flat out announcing a higher ABPP allocation.
See previous answer.
For the silver FH privies, it was to give the ABPPs additional lottery prizes. Conspiracy or not, they announced a mintage limit of 75K, but only seeded 50K with privies. Knowing full well, before release, that the limit was 50K, not 75K. And failing to communicate that until weeks later.
But, it is very clear they do this for some releases and not for others. Without rhyme or reason. American Liberty gets a short strike. Gold Sacagawea does not. And, every time they do it when there is a quick sell out, they are leaving money on the table. So, there is no good reason to do it.
There are reasons. We just don't know what they are.
The limits they publish are, by definition, fictional, because there is a different, unpublished, lower limit that is the one they actually mint to. It is what it is, and they have every right to do it.
The only way a limit could be considered fictional is if they exceeded the limit. Again, you don't know what the term limit means. You are referring to the planned production quantity. That's different than limit. You would be more effective and have more credibility if you used accurate terminology instead of intentionally misusing terms to fuel your victim narrative.
There is no doubt in my mind that the mintage limit posted was pure deception because:
It allowed a bigger ABBP allocation. Also did the ABBP have advanced knowledge that the mintage would be smaller.
it now entices people to buy future coins because they are hoping for a greatly reduced mintage.
its not only rarity that increases sales but also the impression or hope of rarity as well.
I will never forget the overlooked hype for the first Princess Diana Beanie Babies "For the first month there will only be 12 Princess Diana Beanies per store" It quickly turned to people thinking only 12 per store period. We sold $2.50 Beanies for $400 each and the fun began. What a year of cash up the wazoo. God Bless Ty Warner. !!!!!
P. S. We all know “after the first month”
Millions became available . 🫢
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
As long as they don't exceed the limit there's no dishonesty or fiction.
You don't because you keep calling it dishonest and misleading even though the mint has not exceeded the limit. Honoring the published limit sounds like the definition of trustworthy and reliable. Do you know what fiction is? It certainly isn't publishing a limit and staying under it.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
I don't care what the ATS number is. I base my decisions based on the published limits, as the mint intends. If they make less that's a bonus I guess. I believe they always make at least a few less than the limit.
The mint has never released actual mintages until years after they were done selling coins. While I don't disagree it would be nice to have information, why do you feel entitled to demand a change to established procedures? Why do you think they know the mintage that far in advance when they don't even publish official numbers until months or years after sales are complete?
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
The mintage limit is determined in advance of production. Their market analysis or other obligations will change things later. There is ZERO reason for them to create a "fictional limit" higher than their planned production run. They end up both selling fewer units as well a advertising a coin that appears less scarce.
But it's fun to make up conspiracy theories. Did you know LBJ had Kennedy killed? LBJ was actually a body snatching alien who landed in Roswell and JFK found out about it.
There is similarly ZERO reason for them not communicate accurate information if "their market analysis or other obligations will change things later." The certainly have no problem moving HHLs up and down as the situation warrants. And letting us know about it. They do actually know how to edit their web pages in real time.
The information is always accurate. But if you're talking about communicating production plans and data, they've never done this and probably with good reason. If they planned 10k but the machine breaks down and they're only able to produce a fraction of that, I can imagine the mint doesn't want to keep answering questions about what happened and explaining how their machine broke or any of the other 100 possible things that break down or hinder production unexpectedly.
I don't know WHY they choose to be opaque, but they do. There is no good reason. The best I can come up with is justifying a higher ABPP allocation without flat out announcing a higher ABPP allocation.
See previous answer.
For the silver FH privies, it was to give the ABPPs additional lottery prizes. Conspiracy or not, they announced a mintage limit of 75K, but only seeded 50K with privies. Knowing full well, before release, that the limit was 50K, not 75K. And failing to communicate that until weeks later.
But, it is very clear they do this for some releases and not for others. Without rhyme or reason. American Liberty gets a short strike. Gold Sacagawea does not. And, every time they do it when there is a quick sell out, they are leaving money on the table. So, there is no good reason to do it.
There are reasons. We just don't know what they are.
The limits they publish are, by definition, fictional, because there is a different, unpublished, lower limit that is the one they actually mint to. It is what it is, and they have every right to do it.
The only way a limit could be considered fictional is if they exceeded the limit. Again, you don't know what the term limit means. You are referring to the planned production quantity. That's different than limit. You would be more effective and have more credibility if you used accurate terminology instead of intentionally misusing terms to fuel your victim narrative.
I don't know what to tell you. Go grab a dictionary, look up the words "limit" and "fiction."
Yes, the numbers they produce are indeed below the numbers they publish. And that is apparently all that you need to think the posted limit is a real limit. Not a fictional one.
However, if the true "limit," i.e., a number that they know in advance they will not produce above, is below the published "limit," then the published "limit" is not the true "limit." It is intentionally misleading fiction.
You like speed limit examples, so I'll give you one. If the posted speed limit was 55 MPH, but cops pulled you over for driving over 35 MPH, because they actually have a hidden limit they don't disclose, but that is lower than the one posted, that would also render the posted 55 MPH limit a fiction.
Here, we don't get tickets, but we are unable to buy things we are led to believe will be available. And that's dishonest. Period.
ABPP always get theirs regardless. It's everyone else who wants something they can't get who are screwed. But you're okay with it, so long as it makes what you buy more valuable. I do understand that.
To your point, if they don't want to disclose, anything, they absolutely have no obligation to. I just think that they do have an obligation to make whatever it is that they do publish be accurate.
And, it's just not accurate to say a limit is 12K when they know, at any point between when they publish it and when they close sales, that they will not be making that many, regardless of demand.
With these, in hindsight they knew they would not make more than 8K at least from the point they loaded 8K into ATS at the end of July. Yet the website still says the Mintage Limit is 12K.
It isn't. It's 8K, since they aren't taking orders or back orders for the difference between 12K and what they have sold to date. And they won't be. I have a crystal ball, and know this for an absolute fact.
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
As long as they don't exceed the limit there's no dishonesty or fiction.
You don't because you keep calling it dishonest and misleading even though the mint has not exceeded the limit. Honoring the published limit sounds like the definition of trustworthy and reliable. Do you know what fiction is? It certainly isn't publishing a limit and staying under it.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
I don't care what the ATS number is. I base my decisions based on the published limits, as the mint intends. If they make less that's a bonus I guess. I believe they always make at least a few less than the limit.
The mint has never released actual mintages until years after they were done selling coins. While I don't disagree it would be nice to have information, why do you feel entitled to demand a change to established procedures? Why do you think they know the mintage that far in advance when they don't even publish official numbers until months or years after sales are complete?
@GhosOfRudy said:
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
The mintage limit is determined in advance of production. Their market analysis or other obligations will change things later. There is ZERO reason for them to create a "fictional limit" higher than their planned production run. They end up both selling fewer units as well a advertising a coin that appears less scarce.
But it's fun to make up conspiracy theories. Did you know LBJ had Kennedy killed? LBJ was actually a body snatching alien who landed in Roswell and JFK found out about it.
There is similarly ZERO reason for them not communicate accurate information if "their market analysis or other obligations will change things later." The certainly have no problem moving HHLs up and down as the situation warrants. And letting us know about it. They do actually know how to edit their web pages in real time.
The information is always accurate. But if you're talking about communicating production plans and data, they've never done this and probably with good reason. If they planned 10k but the machine breaks down and they're only able to produce a fraction of that, I can imagine the mint doesn't want to keep answering questions about what happened and explaining how their machine broke or any of the other 100 possible things that break down or hinder production unexpectedly.
I don't know WHY they choose to be opaque, but they do. There is no good reason. The best I can come up with is justifying a higher ABPP allocation without flat out announcing a higher ABPP allocation.
See previous answer.
For the silver FH privies, it was to give the ABPPs additional lottery prizes. Conspiracy or not, they announced a mintage limit of 75K, but only seeded 50K with privies. Knowing full well, before release, that the limit was 50K, not 75K. And failing to communicate that until weeks later.
But, it is very clear they do this for some releases and not for others. Without rhyme or reason. American Liberty gets a short strike. Gold Sacagawea does not. And, every time they do it when there is a quick sell out, they are leaving money on the table. So, there is no good reason to do it.
There are reasons. We just don't know what they are.
The limits they publish are, by definition, fictional, because there is a different, unpublished, lower limit that is the one they actually mint to. It is what it is, and they have every right to do it.
The only way a limit could be considered fictional is if they exceeded the limit. Again, you don't know what the term limit means. You are referring to the planned production quantity. That's different than limit. You would be more effective and have more credibility if you used accurate terminology instead of intentionally misusing terms to fuel your victim narrative.
I don't know what to tell you. Go grab a dictionary, look up the words "limit" and "fiction."
Since you refuse to do it:
noun
1. a point or level beyond which something does not or may not extend or pass.
2. a restriction on the size or amount of something permissible or possible.
A limit is a threshold. Not a quantity. Why do you think a threshold is a quantity?
That's why when you check your bags to get on a plane, a 50lb bag is just as acceptable as a 20lb bag. But 51lbs is penalized. See how that works? You don't have to put 50lbs in your suitcase. Packing a light bag is not deception or fiction, it's honoring the limit every bit as much as the person with a 50.0lb bag.
Yes, the numbers they produce are indeed below the numbers they publish. And that is apparently all that you need to think the posted limit is a real limit. Not a fictional one.
However, if the true "limit," i.e., a number that they know in advance they will not produce above, is below the published "limit," then the published "limit" is not the true "limit." It is intentionally misleading fiction.
No, that's called a production plan or production quantity. It's a different number. The production quantity is not a threshold.
You like speed limit examples, so I'll give you one. If the posted speed limit was 55 MPH, but cops pulled you over for driving over 35 MPH, because they actually have a hidden limit they don't disclose, but that is lower than the one posted, that would also render the posted 55 MPH limit a fiction.
That's just silly. Try again. You would win in court all day long by presenting evidence of what the sign said.
Here, we don't get tickets, but we are unable to buy things we are led to believe will be available. And that's dishonest. Period.
Everyone who wanted any of the recent releases had ample opportunity to buy one. Every mint customer had the exact same information. That's not dishonest, that's fair.
ABPP always get theirs regardless. It's everyone else who wants something they can't get who are screwed. But you're okay with it, so long as it makes what you buy more valuable. I do understand that.
That's how it works. I don't have to like it.
To your point, if they don't want to disclose, anything, they absolutely have no obligation to. I just think that they do have an obligation to make whatever it is that they do publish be accurate.
It's all been 100% accurate. That's because they publish thresholds, not production quantities, a fact you can't seem to grasp.
And, it's just not accurate to say a limit is 12K when they know, at any point between when they publish it and when they close sales, that they will not be making that many, regardless of demand.
Yes it is accurate. A threshold is not a production quantity.
With these, in hindsight they knew they would not make more than 8K at least from the point they loaded 8K into ATS at the end of July. Yet the website still says the Mintage Limit is 12K.
You assume that they knew this. It is not a fact. There easily could have been a contingent production run planned that they still may execute.
It isn't. It's 8K, since they aren't taking orders or back orders for the difference between 12K and what they have sold to date. And they won't be. I have a crystal ball, and know this for an absolute fact.
@Rc5280 said:
Mintage Limit: Apple
Authorized Mintage: Orange
Mintage Limit Amount: As posted
Authorized Mintage: None of YOUR Business
@NJCoin you might want to look into a balanced diet to include Fruit once in a while.
And there we have it. A mintage limit amount that might or might not reflect the actual quantity they will mint up to, while the actual mintage is none of my business. Which is fine, if they say nothing. Not so much if they are going to publish a limit they have no intention of hitting if demand warrants.
Hopefully not retreads! I had to return one of two for bad quality: scratches at 2-6-10 O'clock positions on the Obverse. I feel something as bad as that should never be sent out to a customer. I considered this morning trying to pick up another but had a negative feeling come over me at 7:30.
It was a great feeling. But yes, they are possible rejects at this stage imo, and that was on my mind as well.
There was a member here who scored an unmolested, nice FHG on New Year's morning well after release, sent it in and it came back 70.
We'll see what happens.
Comments
One and Done, next LIVE stop for a photo, the reverse!
SO awesome!!! 😀
No, but if he steps out of his Mint Truther Bubble, and get's a sense of what 98% of the rest of us think, maybe he'll glean some value out of it. Doubtful, but anything is possible?
As I've been saying!
I received both gold and silver today, both beautiful, no milk spots, no lint, no anything but a beautiful, well designed and crafted coin. Good job US Mint.
So.... both silver and gold pieces showing about 1/2 their mintage limit in the 9/1 report....
My PCGS profile
To be fair, 8K is 2/3 of 12K. But, yeah! This is a big reason they are both doing well in the secondary market.
And a prime example of a lack of transparency on the part of the Mint, since, given they are both now Unavailable, less than 2 weeks after release, in spite of robust demand, there was clearly never an intention to produce up to the "mintage limit." Rendering the so-called limit a fiction, since the true limits were apparently 8K and 30K.
Mind reader...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You still don't recognize what a limit is.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I do. You still don't understand what fiction is. If they know they are going to make 8K, but they don't set the limit at 8K, what's the difference between 12K and 12 million? They are both misleading, and 8K is less than both of them.
We'll see if you still feel the same way if they ever get a clue and mask the ATS number, leaving you as in the dark as most of the rest of the world. And if you then miss out on something because the actual mintage turns out to be meaningfully less than the published limit, in spite of robust demand.
They most likely make what then can make in a production cycle and move on to the next thing. They could care less about posting real time production numbers, until audited. It is the governemnt after all. They have the monoply.
If they did, it could go just as bad. Say they have a limit of 60K, they produce 30K. So on the website the list producation 30K of 60K. Later in the year , oh we just made 30K more before the end of the year. People would still be unhappy.
Hi! First time poster.
On August 21 just 5285 were available to sell, and I’m happy I got one.
But 7952 have been sold.
So were the other 2667 coins, minus whatever the mint sold at Oklahoma City,
never made available to the general public? Thanks
There is a list of ABPP. Authorized Purchasers who commit to volume and get a guaranteed amount if they do. the bulk of that 2667 went to them. Only 100 were brought to OK City according to reports.
the mint sales counters use the same website and receive from the same fulfillment centers we do. the 100 the mint sold are already and automatically counted
The Big boys(ABPP's) were awarded a total of 2000 coins as a Product Limit. They ordered 1976 of them with a 5% premium attached to get them in advance. The remaining 24 coins are still posted as ats on the AB's page.
8/12 was the cutoff date for the Big's to place their early orders, and the Mint sales report on 8/17 reflects those 1976 coins sold.
The public wasn't able to purchase the remaining coins online, at Mint sales counters, or at the show until 8/21.
how do you know there is a separate page?
The mintage limit is determined in advance of production. Their market analysis or other obligations will change things later. There is ZERO reason for them to create a "fictional limit" higher than their planned production run. They end up both selling fewer units as well a advertising a coin that appears less scarce.
But it's fun to make up conspiracy theories. Did you know LBJ had Kennedy killed? LBJ was actually a body snatching alien who landed in Roswell and JFK found out about it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Just add a "AB" Suffix to a Mint Product Number to see what's up with the Bigs.
https://www.usmint.gov/on/demandware.store/Sites-USM-Site/default/Product-Variation?pid=25DAAB
Some products, like certain ASE's, Morgan and Peace Proof's have an additional Big Boy page.
The 40 coin trays available to the Bigs carries an "040" Suffix. The NBPP's have access to the 040 products I believe.
Below is the "Morgan Silver Dollar 2025 Proof Coin Bulk Tray" page ⇊
https://www.usmint.gov/on/demandware.store/Sites-USM-Site/default/Product-Variation?pid=25XF040
Apparently not of great interest to the big boys.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Very informative gyromac and Rc5280
Thanks
They did buy 6k before next week's release, but those might be the Subscriptions that were posted, more to come next report I'm sure...
25XF - 2025 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 6,043 - 9/1/2025 Report.
Our in-house "Coin Whisperer" doesn't appear to be interested in the PF Porgans either - Not Hot Enough!
I was referring to the high relief gold
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
There is similarly ZERO reason for them not communicate accurate information if "their market analysis or other obligations will change things later." The certainly have no problem moving HHLs up and down as the situation warrants. And letting us know about it. They do actually know how to edit their web pages in real time.
I don't know WHY they choose to be opaque, but they do. There is no good reason. The best I can come up with is justifying a higher ABPP allocation without flat out announcing a higher ABPP allocation.
For the silver FH privies, it was to give the ABPPs additional lottery prizes. Conspiracy or not, they announced a mintage limit of 75K, but only seeded 50K with privies. Knowing full well, before release, that the limit was 50K, not 75K. And failing to communicate that until weeks later.
But, it is very clear they do this for some releases and not for others. Without rhyme or reason. American Liberty gets a short strike. Gold Sacagawea does not. And, every time they do it when there is a quick sell out, they are leaving money on the table. So, there is no good reason to do it.
The limits they publish are, by definition, fictional, because there is a different, unpublished, lower limit that is the one they actually mint to. It is what it is, and they have every right to do it.
But it is not right. Again, when the time comes that people here are adversely impacted, I'm sure they'll have a different take on it.
There was a 3pm ET Big Boy cutoff on 8/12, their final day to order the Sunflowers.
There was a flurry in the final minutes, and at the buzzer there were 24 left 'on the table'. Too little too late?
I periodically check the AB ats over there, no change as of yet.
As long as they don't exceed the limit there's no dishonesty or fiction.
You don't because you keep calling it dishonest and misleading even though the mint has not exceeded the limit. Honoring the published limit sounds like the definition of trustworthy and reliable. Do you know what fiction is? It certainly isn't publishing a limit and staying under it.
I don't care what the ATS number is. I base my decisions based on the published limits, as the mint intends. If they make less that's a bonus I guess. I believe they always make at least a few less than the limit.
The mint has never released actual mintages until years after they were done selling coins. While I don't disagree it would be nice to have information, why do you feel entitled to demand a change to established procedures? Why do you think they know the mintage that far in advance when they don't even publish official numbers until months or years after sales are complete?
The information is always accurate. But if you're talking about communicating production plans and data, they've never done this and probably with good reason. If they planned 10k but the machine breaks down and they're only able to produce a fraction of that, I can imagine the mint doesn't want to keep answering questions about what happened and explaining how their machine broke or any of the other 100 possible things that break down or hinder production unexpectedly.
See previous answer.
There are reasons. We just don't know what they are.
The only way a limit could be considered fictional is if they exceeded the limit. Again, you don't know what the term limit means. You are referring to the planned production quantity. That's different than limit. You would be more effective and have more credibility if you used accurate terminology instead of intentionally misusing terms to fuel your victim narrative.
http://ProofCollection.Net
There is no doubt in my mind that the mintage limit posted was pure deception because:
I will never forget the overlooked hype for the first Princess Diana Beanie Babies "For the first month there will only be 12 Princess Diana Beanies per store" It quickly turned to people thinking only 12 per store period. We sold $2.50 Beanies for $400 each and the fun began. What a year of cash up the wazoo. God Bless Ty Warner. !!!!!
P. S. We all know “after the first month”
Millions became available . 🫢
I don't know what to tell you. Go grab a dictionary, look up the words "limit" and "fiction."
Yes, the numbers they produce are indeed below the numbers they publish. And that is apparently all that you need to think the posted limit is a real limit. Not a fictional one.
However, if the true "limit," i.e., a number that they know in advance they will not produce above, is below the published "limit," then the published "limit" is not the true "limit." It is intentionally misleading fiction.
You like speed limit examples, so I'll give you one. If the posted speed limit was 55 MPH, but cops pulled you over for driving over 35 MPH, because they actually have a hidden limit they don't disclose, but that is lower than the one posted, that would also render the posted 55 MPH limit a fiction.
Here, we don't get tickets, but we are unable to buy things we are led to believe will be available. And that's dishonest. Period.
ABPP always get theirs regardless. It's everyone else who wants something they can't get who are screwed. But you're okay with it, so long as it makes what you buy more valuable. I do understand that.
To your point, if they don't want to disclose, anything, they absolutely have no obligation to. I just think that they do have an obligation to make whatever it is that they do publish be accurate.
And, it's just not accurate to say a limit is 12K when they know, at any point between when they publish it and when they close sales, that they will not be making that many, regardless of demand.
With these, in hindsight they knew they would not make more than 8K at least from the point they loaded 8K into ATS at the end of July. Yet the website still says the Mintage Limit is 12K.
It isn't. It's 8K, since they aren't taking orders or back orders for the difference between 12K and what they have sold to date. And they won't be. I have a crystal ball, and know this for an absolute fact.
Mintage Limit: Apple
Authorized Mintage: Orange
Mintage Limit Amount: As posted
Authorized Mintage: None of YOUR Business
@NJCoin you might want to look into a balanced diet to include Fruit once in a while.
Since you refuse to do it:
noun
1. a point or level beyond which something does not or may not extend or pass.
2. a restriction on the size or amount of something permissible or possible.
A limit is a threshold. Not a quantity. Why do you think a threshold is a quantity?
That's why when you check your bags to get on a plane, a 50lb bag is just as acceptable as a 20lb bag. But 51lbs is penalized. See how that works? You don't have to put 50lbs in your suitcase. Packing a light bag is not deception or fiction, it's honoring the limit every bit as much as the person with a 50.0lb bag.
No, that's called a production plan or production quantity. It's a different number. The production quantity is not a threshold.
That's just silly. Try again. You would win in court all day long by presenting evidence of what the sign said.
Everyone who wanted any of the recent releases had ample opportunity to buy one. Every mint customer had the exact same information. That's not dishonest, that's fair.
That's how it works. I don't have to like it.
It's all been 100% accurate. That's because they publish thresholds, not production quantities, a fact you can't seem to grasp.
Yes it is accurate. A threshold is not a production quantity.
You assume that they knew this. It is not a fact. There easily could have been a contingent production run planned that they still may execute.
OK Cleo.
http://ProofCollection.Net
And there we have it. A mintage limit amount that might or might not reflect the actual quantity they will mint up to, while the actual mintage is none of my business. Which is fine, if they say nothing. Not so much if they are going to publish a limit they have no intention of hitting if demand warrants.
Available for a few more seconds today on the silver medal. Just enough time…
Gold up for a few too!
Had one in the bag but still wasn't fast enough. MalaFala! RGDS!!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
How many would you say were up?
After several days, a whacky sleep schedule, and a few eyerolls from the Mrs. - Bingo!
First things first though, seeing is believing...
Congrats!!
I wonder where these few keep coming from.
Hopefully not retreads! I had to return one of two for bad quality: scratches at 2-6-10 O'clock positions on the Obverse. I feel something as bad as that should never be sent out to a customer. I considered this morning trying to pick up another but had a negative feeling come over me at 7:30.
It was a great feeling. But yes, they are possible rejects at this stage imo, and that was on my mind as well.
There was a member here who scored an unmolested, nice FHG on New Year's morning well after release, sent it in and it came back 70.
We'll see what happens.
I would be amazed if the mint can process and turn around returns that quickly.
http://ProofCollection.Net