perkdog and stevek played hold'em last night....
galaxy27
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in Sports Talk
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
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I read that headline and just assumed you were talking about their pre-scheduled I told you so battle over whether or not Sheduer will be the Browns starter by week 5. Some things are worth more than 15M 😎
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Bad beat, no question about it. But Jungleman even with the ace on the river, only had the fourth nuts.
He of course was beat with the quads, or aces full, or tens full. Sometimes those baby boats can be stack killers. Yes it's a pretty hand, but sometimes not pretty enough.
If I played poker heads-up against Perkdog, within an hour he'd own my house, car, everything, including my card and coin collection.
But as I'm heading out the door to walk to the homeless shelter, I'd ask him please can I keep the Chuck Bednarik rookie card, it means so much to me.
Perkdog is a nice guy, I think he'd let me keep that.
It would be a fun time going up. against your skills and smart gambling mind against my gunslinger ways lol
It would be fun no matter who won and of course we would finish the session with a handshake
Pic of stevek after a poker session with Perkdog:
I'm still trying to figure out who is who in the video?
One of us is the shady looking character and the other is the creepy flamboyantly dressed fella 😂😂😂
The one player Jungleman, real name Daniel Cates, I've seen him play in quite a number of high stakes games. Paste his name into Youtube search, and I'm sure a lot of videos will pop up with him.
I only enjoy watching the high stakes games. Other than that, I don't follow like "every" poker player out there. So I don't know who is the young kid in that video. He might be really good, and he did play that particular hand extremely well to extract maximum value with the stone cold nuts.
I never watch poker, I'll. watch slot and table game gambling on you tube which is obviously based on luck but poker I just don't get enjoyment watching it for some reason
One of these days we may have to chip-in and sponsor Galaxy to play at the 10k buy-in WSOP main event. If I'm remembering right, I think a few years ago, Galaxy posted a screenshot of an online poker tourney he won. I think it was from the Ign website which is known for poker.
Sure would be cool if we all bought in for say 1k each, and Galaxy made the final table. Forget about the money for a second, it might turn out to be the top thread ever at Sports Talk. And we would insist that Galaxy please bring back some WSOP chips, so we can send them to PSA to be slabbed.
If he's a nice guy, and he won the tourney, he could sign the chips for us for free. Might be worth some good money selling it on Ebay, a WSOP chip, PSA authenticated sig of the winner. 😉
true story
about 18 years ago i met a guy at a sports bar i frequented that had nightly hold'em tournaments. i befriended this guy primarily because we shared similar backgrounds. at the time, i knew more poker than he did. he was a genuine neophyte, but he took the game way more seriously than i did. fast forward almost two decades and the guy won a circuit event in Oklahoma for 6 figures, he's played in the WSOP Main Event on multiple occasions and made the money twice, and probably the most surreal thing i've ever witnessed in my life -- his game has evolved so much over the years that i've personally watched clips of him on youtube draining Phil Hellmuth in cash games here in Houston
i actually sent him a message on Facebook not too long ago........"from nightly tournies at SRO for points to cash games with Phil Hellmuth & Nick Wright. quite an ascension brother!"
he's a very sharp internet entrepreneur who plays poker on the side. he told me in that same conversation, "i'm smart enough to know that i could never play poker full-time for a living."
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Does your friend ever play in the televised games at the Lodge? If so I may have seen him.
Beating up on Phil Hellmuth, a double digit bracelet winner. That's some dam good poker. And winning a six figure tourney, as well as getting in the money, past the bubble twice in the WSOP, speaks for itself.
I've thought about one day playing in the WSOP main event. The entry fee is no problem. The problem is, and perhaps your friend was alluding to this. To win the WSOP, you really have to be willing to use amphetamines. I've never popped a single amphetamine in my entire life, despite the fact that in my high school, amphetamines were a plague. College wasn't much better, but I still refused to do it.
If I were to enter, it would have to be played without the pills. Hence the problem. I'm confident that I would play well and be competitive, even dominant in the early rounds against the many fish. And build up a nice stack. However hours and hours later, one lapse in judgment because I'm dog tired, one mistake, and poof, I'm felted. I see all that coming, so I haven't gone and probably never will.
Your friend mentioned the pro thing. It's a similar scenario as I just mentioned. Countless hours of poker each week, and unless you're popping the pills, you could actually be a better player than the others, but not when you're tired. That's when you get beat, even by lesser skilled players who are swallowing the pills like candy.
i'll have to ask him. good chance he has. he has his own youtube page and i found the cash game vid with Hellmuth. it's about half an hour long, but if you don't want to sift through the hands go to the 34:00 mark where he and Hellmuth share a brief back-and-forth on camera after it was over. you get the gist of what happened based on the semi-kvetching by Phil lol. i love Wes' line at the end........"i really wanted to make you mad but i never found a spot to do that."
i watched some of it again and one thing stood out at me: Wes never spoke at the table. he was focused the entire time. he turned into a very cerebral player. meanwhile, Hellmuth would not shut up. yapped the entire time.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I guess you saw the hand at 30:00
Sorry Wes, but ya gotta at least call after that flop with a boat or quad possibility, considering it wasn't a large raise for this game. In that spot after the flop, trip 5's is almost always the best hand at that point. And Wes would have rivered quads.
Ya just can't put the guy on a flopped straight. I took a guess, even against a flopped straight, I think you'd still have around 35% equity. I see on the board it was actually 39% equity. I would have figured him for pocket 7's to pocket 10's, or a nut flush draw. The only real screw hand is if the opponent flopped three 6's.
That being said, every poker player makes mistakes. Except I'll tell ya, on the games I watched over the years, I never saw Doyle badly play a hand. He was amazing. RIP
Hellmuth, I could never do that chit he does. But it seems to work for him. Players like Airball do it as well.
I can't recall seeing Wes on any shows I've watched. But I'll look out for him, and of course I'll root for him for sure. 😊
I looked at that hand and it was a tough fold but he knew he was beat on the flip and he was right. The 1k bet was the right move and the fold after the raise was solid. He knew he was beat. He wouldn’t be playing for quads. That is insane and no one would stay for the turn. Not to mention a club on the turn. If it wasn’t a limp in I could see the angle that the raise is pockets but the 5k raise was all about keeping the flush draw out of the pot. I question your poker skill dude.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
When someone like you questions my poker skills, then I know I'm doing something right. 😂
"on the flip"
BTW - it's called a flop, not a flip.
You're welcome. 😉
I don’t question why iPhone corrects some things.
Well. You’ve never played me and I’ve never played you. I’m talking about this one hand and the betting on that hand.
i must concur with bgr -- it was a great fold. just didn't work out for him. no one at that table was jamming 10k on a draw -- he knew he was beat. he played beautifully that entire session and, not surprisingly, won the most when the dust settled.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
the graphics made that hand confusing, but if i followed correctly, the initial raiser got out when the fireworks started. thus ruling out an overpair was a relatively safe assumption imo. so Wes' bet was met with a 5k raise and a jam. no one at that table would pull a stunt like that with a draw, so i assure you he knew he would need help if he poured another 8.4k in. right move imo, unlucky outcome.
i'll ask him about that hand one day
edit: had it been me i would not have mucked those 5s. but then again, i'm a donkey who has a difficult time getting away from big hands
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
If you guys ever get a hold-em game together I’m in. I’m a total fish. Easy money.
I always bet hard pre-“flip” too. Cake.
It would have been easy to justify a call with trips there but you also have to know you’re probably beat. Cheap flop is a ticket out of the game if you don’t play the bets. That two hands had 3,4 isn’t surprising. Only hand that would have kept me in that pot for the turn would have been A,6 clubs. I would have paid for outs there. Otherwise I’m keeping that 5k in my pocket and working on those short stacks.
You guys keep saying Wes made a great fold? Well sorry, but it was not a "great fold" when he would have caught quads and one or both of those straights may have called his raise.
Wes has won and placed high in those tourneys Galaxy mentioned, so he is obviously an excellent player. However any pro will tell you that tournaments and cash games are two entirely different animals. Wes in my opinion, obviously needs improvement in his cash game play.
I of course don't know the dynamics of how things have been going for Wes in his recent poker sessions. However I have to believe he's probably been cold. He may have had some bad beats recently with similar hands, and that's why he made the incorrect decision to fold. Sorry to sound harsh but that's scared poker, and any pro will tell you that scared money doesn't win. It is basically impossible.
Bottom line - Wes's worst case scenario in that hand was 39% equity. Not quite a coin flip but not terribly bad at all. His best case scenario was dominating, and just hoping the others don't catch. You simply cannot fold in a situation such as that, and be a winning cash game poker player.
Here’s where I think many players misunderstand pot odds. While he’s sitting at good pot odds post-flop once he’s raised he’s no longer playing cards. Now it doesn’t matter if he has 39% pot odds because he’s sitting at 61 percent that he can’t defend his call and that’s not a good call. And it’s not even close. I doubt you could find anyone who would argue a call would be the correct play there. Unless he was going to bluff player B off the pot when that club hit on the turn, which is a move there, he would have likely been bet off on the turn. Hard to bet on a pair on the board or the last 5 on the river. His pot odds were worse than a coin flip. I think if you asked him he would be really proud of that fold even though the 5 dropped on the river. Had it just been the one short stack going all in it might be worth a flyer but I like the fold. Not going to bet against myself to save my ego over $1k when I’m the fat stack.
That's why I really enjoy poker, the intricacies involved in the game. Especially because of course the best hand doesn't always win, because of bluffing.
From around 11th grade when first playing poker for money, into early college years, in all the poker games I played, I dominated. So anyway I knew about a neighborhood high stakes game played regularly. It was some people I knew of, around two or three years older than me, and they were from my high school. Game was always at one of the players Mom's house. The one mentioned who was the Mom's son, I knew his younger brother from high school football as he was also on the team. He was a grade below me, and we always got along well. The younger brother wasn't at this game. They both still lived with their Mom there. I say all this because here's an important lesson to know about poker in a private setting. Never, and I do mean never, play with people you don't know. So I knew the game was clean, no question about it.
In this game, you basically needed a dime to sit-in, and that's what I brought. It was the days of five card draw. Everybody antes, then there's betting after the cards are dealt, then you discard what you don't want, and then the final betting. So only two rounds of betting, not including the ante.
Long story short, it's only the second hand and I'm dealt trip queens. That's a monster in five card draw to be dealt that. Anyway the older brother mentioned is sitting to my right, and he leads out with a $200 bet. It was by far the biggest bet I had ever seen before. In the games I played, the biggest bet I ever saw was $5. So the $200 bet shocked me quite a bit. I thought about it for around five seconds, and folded. Everybody else folded. Then the bettor breaks out in a short laugh and plops down his five cards face up on the table. All five cards were absolute total garbage.
Immediately, I knew I had no business sitting in that game, didn't say anything other than, I gotta go, and I walked out. While I was steaming a bit that I didn't call, I immediately knew I was outclassed. No sense handing them $1,000 of my money which after that hand, I have no doubt they would have eventually gotten.
This story may not be a perfect analogy to Wes's hand, but in my opinion it's a valid analogy. IE: scared money doesn't win. Wes was being way too tight. IE scared, by not making that call.
BTW - if you don't understand the math in hold 'em, consider yourself a fish and you've got no chance to win. Yea I know, Daniel Negreanu, a BS artist if there ever was one, with his master class and all that, says that playing the player is more important than the math in hold 'em. He has bragged that he's been in games where he doesn't even need cards to win. Yes he's a top player, but again that's BS. Often in a hand when he's got a decision to call a big bet, he will sit there and contemplate out loud what he should do. No doubt, a lot of that thought process is the math involved.
Playing the player and their tells or whatever, certainly is important for various reasons. However when the math overwhelmingly says make the call, or even raise, ya gotta do it. Wes doesn't at all seem like a "scared player" of course not. However he was on that hand. He learned from that mistake I'm sure.
What a great story. Yeah. Gotta power through those terrible odds with confidence - says the donk! I would love to lighten your pockets.
i know this guy and one thing he is not is scared. if that's someone's interpretation of him masterfully coming to the conclusion that he was less than 50/50 and thus decided to keep $8,400 in his pockets to fight another day, that's your prerogative. but saying that he was scared is tantamount to saying he was a supreme coward for not gambling with a big hand, and he's too good of a player to do that. he knew he was beat and swallowed his pride. to me that's the mark of a next-level player. i guarantee you if Hellmuth was pulled aside he would've said that was a great fold.
and if you really think he's scared, look at the hand that preceded that one. on a board with two aces and two kings he moved a guy off of KQ and avoided a chop.........when he was holding KQ himself.
but back to the flopped set hand. when you piece it together, it really doesn't take a pro to come to the conclusion that he was reading the bottom of someone's shoes. 1k bet, followed by a raise to 5k, followed by a jam to 9.4k. and again, that wasn't a table full of donkeys. Brandon Cantu is an established pro who has won WSOP & WPT bracelets and he was playing too. no one there is shipping all of their chips in on a draw. so what could Wes beat? remember, he's gotta get through two people. it's a virtual guarantee that one of those guys has him in trouble, and as it turned out, they both did. until they didn't. but that's poker. Wes is not the type of player who is going to unload 10k just because he has a big hand and is ready to gamble. galaxy27 on the other hand? now that's a different story. but i'm not the player he is, clearly. he walked away the winner in a cash game with Phil Hellmuth to the tune of 23k, and i enter $3 buy-ins.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Well I emphatically stated that Wes was scared on that one hand, and I emphatically stated that I didn't consider him a scared poker player. Not sure what else to add to that, and I won't, other than ending this with saying, I totally and completely stand by my assessment of that hand, and in my opinion, most poker pros would agree with me.
No shame in making a mistake, and being scared on one hand and playing it badly. As stated earlier, the only pro I have never seen play a hand badly was Doyle.
Galaxy stated "i'll ask him about that hand one day"
I would enjoy hearing what Wes has to say about that hand. Feel free to email him my comments if you wish to do that. I'd also like to hear his assessment of himself as a tournament player versus a cash game player.
Oh and one more quickie I just thought of while typing this post. His fold in that spot in a tourney, is an understandable move. I may not disagree with that. However in a cash game, it's clearly a mistake. It would be fun to also hear his assessment if he made the fold thinking too much about tourney strategy versus cash game strategy.
You could even invite him to post in this thread. Takes seconds to join CU, no cost involved, and wouldn't take much of his time. Galaxy stated that Wes is also a businessman. Wouldn't surprise me if one day he decides to do a poker podcast, and this thread might be a good early introduction to gaining viewership of that. Lots of money to be made in successful podcasts. Not kidding, his first guest might be Phil Hellmuth. Hellmuth loves doing that chit.
If Wes does do that, i would certainly check it out. 😊
Your assessment seems far out of touch with reality. Die on that hill if you want. I’m always down for a cash game.
I only commented here because your read was so bizarre. I still hold out hope that you’re just messing with us.
https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=198238
There's a contact button on here. I'm not gonna do it, but if anyone else wishes to contact Wes, and ask him about that hand, then go ahead. Ask him for permission if you could post his reply here.
Note that Wes has been playing since at least 2011.
Also note that he has won $351,002. However that figure does not include losses or expenses. Of course that figure doesn't include private games, in which his overall figure could be a lot higher or a lot lower.
"but back to the flopped set hand. when you piece it together, it really doesn't take a pro to come to the conclusion that he was reading the bottom of someone's shoes. 1k bet, followed by a raise to 5k, followed by a jam to 9.4k. and again, that wasn't a table full of donkeys. Brandon Cantu is an established pro who has won WSOP & WPT bracelets and he was playing too. no one there is shipping all of their chips in on a draw."
Okay maybe this will be my final comment, maybe not - LOL
I've watched a lot, probably more than everyone else here combined, the pros on the various televised cash game poker shows. I don't usually watch the tourneys. It's not rare at all to see pros shove on a non-paired board, when they have an ace flush draw. They could be representing trips on the shove.
Also ya gotta understand tells. A player shoving may honestly believe he's got the best hand, so his "tells" and his play, act like he's got the best hand. The shove could have easily been the other players having trip 2's or two pair, trying to get a pocket pair to fold. Perhaps getting a lesser flush draw to fold.