Rarity7 (Re)Discovers Unique 1851 $5 Schultz on 1847 Mexico 8R
PeakRarities
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I just saw this ultra cool write-up was posted today, and thought I'd share it here on behalf of my friends Noah and Owen of Rarity7 (formerly Numismattack, Noah apparently came to his senses 
), . The piece will be on display at his table in OKC, for all who want to stop by and have a look at this incredible rediscovery.
As a pioneer enthusiast, I especially appreciate mysterious and esoteric finds such as this, and the wheels have been turning, trying to imagine the circumstances surrounding its production. Though some questions remain unanswered for the time being, I believe there's still a plentiful amount of numismatic mysteries that will, one day, be answered with thoroughgoing research and soon-to-be-revealed documents patiently waiting to see the light of day.
By all means, discuss! 
https://www.rarity7.com/blog/2025-08-rarity7-rediscovers-unique-1851-5-schultz-on-1847-mexico-8r
Comments
Interesting intentional overstrike
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Very cool!!! Any idea the value of such a coin?
Thank you for sharing Dan! @OwenSeymour put an insane amount of research effort into this one (and I helped!) and it's been a super fun project.
Noah @ Rarity7
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Dan Carr did it
Congrats again Noah, this is so beyond cool!
@FlyingAl hopefully worth the wait.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
That's a great piece !
Interesting story too......
Very cool!
What a fantastic piece!
And a great article too. Thanks for the link. Before I read it I thought, that's odd, it looks like the reverse die had a CUD.
Wow! What an absolutely phenomenal find. I'll definitely want to stop by and see that one!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Way Kewl!
I like how they lined up the central designs, it works really well just on an artistic level.
I wonder what is know of the die progressions. Natural curiosity makes me ask was it done as a trial strike with new dies or was it a play thing done with old dies that were all but discarded
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
That's freaking amazing!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The article is a must read.
Recalled seeing something like that in an auction catalog before but no idea where. Reading the article made it clear along with a lot of other interesting info.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Great coin, great write up. However, I fail to understand why this was made by Schultz. The 20g Mexican gold coin was already accepted and used in commerce, so why overstrike one? Did it make it more acceptable to San Franciscans?
bob
Our best guess and working theory is that this was struck at the Schultz shop either by or given to Kuner (the engraver), perhaps as a memento or thank-you, as it somehow ended up in a French collection (and Kuner took a trip to France in 1854 to get hitched.). Of course this is speculation and we can't know for sure how or why, but this seems plausible to us.
Noah @ Rarity7
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Clifford sale, B&R 1982. I knew it was either that, or a contemporary Apostrophe auction. Clifford it was. Lot 110, $8,250 plus 10%.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Dan, thanks so much for the link to the excellent research.
A truly unique item, about which the question Why? will never be answered.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
It seems extraordinarily improbable that this overstrike was made or intended for circulation. It certainly wouldn't have traded for $5 as it is still a silver 8 reales, Nobody would have accepted it for its weight in gold. The reason for the overstrike is unknowable but it seems likely to be a souvenir/memento as mentioned by @rarity7
In general, pioneer gold was struck to monetize all of the gold being found in the California gold rush. Having other existent circulating coinage does nothing to help dispose of a pouch of gold dust or a handful of nuggets.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
What gold coin are you talking about? These dies were struck on a silver 8 Reales, either as a test strike or to create a novelty.
Great article.
Why would the owner of this coin sell it at a small local show? If the owner inherited it he should have known it was a rare and valuable coin. With the internet and a little elbow grease he should have been able to find out he had a coin which may be worth up to six figures if not more.
Soo coool!
Just a mind and fingers problem. Thanks for the cure!
bob
Neither the owner (nor we) knew or understood what it was until a lot of research went into it -- the coin didn't show up in any google searches (and it's not even particularly easy to figure out what to google until you understand what you're looking at), and it took us months of research (and lots of evidence provided to PCGS) for it even to be certified as authentic.
So it's easy now to say "should have been able to find out" but in reality, it was not easy, and the owner just wanted to sell a few items from an old collection he inherited (the rest of which was not particularly valuable).
Noah @ Rarity7
rarity7.com
Instagram (personal) - @numismattack
Instagram (r7) - @rarity7coins
Fascinating read!
From your write up:
“That observation sent us down a fresh path. If not a trial in the new-issue experimental sense, then what? Perhaps someone years later had some fun with the original dies? While the precise date of manufacture is impossible to determine, there's strong evidence supporting its creation in the early 1850s:
It seemed unlikely to us that the stars aligned in such a fashion that the dies were discarded without being destroyed, left unscathed by the 1851 Great Fire of San Francisco (which destroyed most of the city), and then were discovered by someone who knew what they were and who happened to own a multi-ton coin press exactly compatible with those original dies.
Consider also the practical realities of striking coinage: Setting dies, dialing in pressure, warming the press - none of that is trivial."
With respect, the write up is materially incorrect.
It is documented that Schultz's partner Garratt (correct spelling) retained the machinery and dies after private issues were regulated by the California Legislature and Schultz & Co was dissolved a couple months thereafter. Garratt himself so stated in a dictated statement. The machinery and dies survived the fire of 1851. They were retained by Garratt —and subsequently destroyed by a fire at Garratt’s later Fremont & Mission operation —almost 20 years later-- in 1870.
Garratt had the dies and machinery available for almost 20 years after to do with as he pleased.
Albert Kuner -- through Schulz & Co, was the engraver for most all private California issuers-- save for Moffit. He was not a principal of Schulz & Company, nor did he retain dies.
Coin appears to be an over-strike--- made by Garratt alone--- after Schultz & Company dissolved- but sometime before the 1870 fire.
Believe PCGS got it wrong by labeling a later Garratt over-strike as a "Schultz & Co." issue.
Duty Calls! - and you've answered
Thank you!
I'd love to amend our article with some of this info. Would you mind sharing your sources? I will gladly credit you for pointing us in the right direction.
This is the wonderful thing about the Internet - we can easily amend publications as new info comes to light.
(BTW - it seems to me that it's still entirely speculative as to the exact origin date & source - but at the very least if we can definitively narrow the window to 1851-1870, that would be an excellent refinement.)
Noah @ Rarity7
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As a starting point, I would recommend--The Builders of a Great City: San Francisco's Representative Men, the City, Its History and Commerce, etc., Volume 1, p. 166, San Francisco Journal of Commerce, 1891.
Garratt’s statement is paywalled behind a research database, otherwise I would post it here.
I do not mean this in anyway pejoratively, but from reading just the one blog post, I am unsure if you have a full picture of Shultz & Company’s business model. They essentially provided dies for coins issued by most private concerns (and struck some of those coins)--- save for Moffat. They struck some coins of their own, the $5 being known, and a $10 piece being rumored. Schultz himself was more or less a front/moneyman. Garratt was the one who, with Kunis as engraver, ran the physical operations. Garratt and Kuner went their separate ways when Schultz folded, but both remained active in San Fran after. Kuners was said by Garratt to have left the City for “the mountains” for a period after the 1851 fire.
Garratt seemed to have been plagued by fires. The 1870 fire was one of several (1851, 1866) at his different locations, but it was the one finally destroyed his dies and machinery. He did again reopen after, but I did not follow that trail subsequent to 1870.
Thank you for the kind courtesy of offering to credit, but I wrote nothing original, so no credit is due.
Reciprocally, would welcome any cites you might share (apart from the die state analysis—which I lack any real competence to comment on).
Agree exact date it was struck remains speculative. Not sure that is something that could be found, or not, with a deeper dive. Have not drilled down much beyond the surface....
Think the coin is not a "Schultz & Company" issue—(my opinion)---but that observation does not lessen the significance of a one of one (known) Garratt overstrike.
I love the way the story is developing.
Very interesting item.
That is obviously a later die state. Part of the die between "GOLD" and the rim has already broken completely off (forming a large cud die break). An earlier die state on a gold piece shows the crack, but the die piece hasn't yet broken away:
https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1851-5-schultz-co/10316
Excellent photographs!
An excellent resource - and we did see that one (but also thank you)
Could I trouble you to provide specifics? We will happily pay to get over the wall - I'd just love to read and learn from Garratt's full dictated statement.
Noah @ Rarity7
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Instagram (personal) - @numismattack
Instagram (r7) - @rarity7coins
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Holy smokes. That overstrike is bananas!
@rarity7 — love your lengthy CAC reveal vids on YouTube … keep ‘em coming. 👍🏻
Thank you
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Great thread!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
To be clear, you reviewed the materials cited-- prior to your blog post? If that is so, your reasoning behind the omission of any reference to Garratt’s post Schutz work from the write up?
No sorry to be unclear - after we published. We’re going to prepare some amendments and edits but I’d like to gather all the data, citations, etc first.
Would you mind sharing the paywall site where I can see Garratt’s full dictation? I want to make sure we’re working with all of the right source materials.
Thanks again!
Noah @ Rarity7
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Instagram (personal) - @numismattack
Instagram (r7) - @rarity7coins
@rarity7
I haven't been able to find the specific source for this excerpt, but heres a snippet from a Stacks Bowers write up-
https://stacksbowers.com/coin-resource-center/territorial-gold/schultz-and-co/
-In later years, William T. Garratt furnished a description of the early activities:
"We made a great many dies for private coining. Albert Küner, who is still in business here, would do the engraving and I the turning — that is, the machine work on the dies, for which at the time we would get $100 per day per man on that special job. After that, Schultz took a notion to go into coining for Burgoyne & Co. and Argenti & Co. who were bankers here at the time. They would buy the dust and we would do the coining. We ran for a while, and then Schultz and I separated, he taking the coining establishment and I the foundry, he keeping the room over the foundry for his business. He continues only a short time before the Legislature passed a law prohibiting private coining. We took gold at $16 an ounce, and put it through the refining process, and then we would add 10% copper. That of course would take very little copper, just enough to make the coin hard enough to wear. I think the Legislature prohibited it altogether; I am not exactly clear on that point. Moffat was allowed to go ahead. We continued in the same place after Schultz had quit. We had moved from Clay Street down to Leidesdorff, near Sacramento [Street]. While we were there we separated. He continued coining until he was shut off by the Legislature; it might have been two months. From that he went up into the mountains and I continued with the business. Judge Schultz was connected with the Gold Mountain Quartz Mining Co."
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