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huh oh SGC president quits...
olb31
Posts: 3,706 ✭✭✭✭✭
doesn't sound like he wanted to either..
Work hard and you will succeed!!
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Why did they still have a president? Wouldn't it seem as though he would have no power under the new owners?
I’m sure it’s all fine. Nothing to see here.
Neo did an interview with PSAs head grader (over everything including SGC) yesterday about Peter and other things. He said SGC capacity is being scaled back to pre Covid levels and will be run as a “boutique grader”. Several SGC graders have moved to PSA. The lead grader at SGC is still the same. Goal is at some point to get turnaround times back to 10-15 days.
Seems to me like when you intentionally scale back a brand’s capacity that brand is not long in this world.
https://www.cllct.com/sports-collectibles/sports-cards/sgc-to-transition-to-boutique-grading-brand-as-president-resigns
Its very concerning to me. I saw an interview with the Collector's CEO where he outright said we were having some staff issues so we just worked to recruit their best guys to improve the PSA product with a clear lack of concern that it would hurt the SGC brand. Heard that the SGC guys did not want to move to join PSA so PSA built a building right next to the Boca Raton SGC office so they could get them.
They are clearly saying they want to shrink SGC here which does feel like a read between the lines statement of we wont put any resources into them and are not very concerned about the welfare and success of the company. Its a shame because I saw SGC as the better grading company by a large margin. The only thing I felt there was to appreciate about PSA is that you could sell stuff in their holders at a higher price than cards in other holders. The overall grading experience though felt like a yelp 2 stars out of 10 while SGC felt like a 10 out of 10. In time think that imbalance between values of cards in PSA holders and SGC holders could have evened out a little and was seeing it start to. Think people appreciating the SGC experience was going to continue that shift.
Doubt this will help SGC card values though and I may start to liquidate a lot of what I hold if the prices start to dip. I feel like this makes it more clear that Collector's never appreciated the idea of SGC as a successful grading company their prospects to grow and make money. Think the acquisition was just to eliminate a serious threat and poach talent. Not sure I have ever heard someone say we acquired this company and our intention is to shrink them.
Having three (3) cards out sixty-six (66) cards in SGC holders (1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson SGC-5, 1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle SGC-7 and a 1959 Bob Gibson SGC-8.5)….I will eventually transition those three (3) cards to PSA holders.
This is a real bummer. You don't need a secret decoder ring to see what's happening. This was a play to eliminate the closest competition by buying them, robbing them of all the resources, damage their reputations, leave them with a shell of what they were and let them whither until they dry up and blow away.
Not a bad business play, but not great for the collectors.
I have 3 orders that have been sitting pending for a couple months but I never pulled the trigger to send the cards. In my last few I'd started to see some of the shady things I'd seen at other graders (!). Now I definitely will not be sending those at all.
It's a great opportunity for one of the other grading companies to fill the void created by all this though...
BBBrkrr…
Could you elaborate on shady things….and are you talking about SGC??
I only send in vintage and all the orders in the distant past went in and the rare card came back with a MinSize or Miscut label (no charge to me). All the sudden I stopped getting any Miscuts and they're all labeled 'Evidence of Trimming' and I was charged for the sub. That seemed to be a policy change to generate additional revenue.
I even get the change to generate income, but I also saw it as another nail in the vintage grading coffin.
A lot of these I personally pulled from vending, wax, etc... myself so I know the entire history on those cards.
Speaking strictly on SGC's better graders moving to PSA, would that not help get grading standards back to previous levels (assuming it's the inexperienced graders and not a company policy shift in the harsh grades of the past few years)? More experienced, better graders grading vintage seems to be a good thing rather than a young, inexperienced modern grader trying to grade vintage.
Yes, it would definitely help PSA grading, but at the expense of SGC.
I'm fairly certain we will see a "Move your SGC slabs to PSA" monthly special in the near future.
It’s no different than any other business. I was with a company 44+ years. We were the 4th largest firm in the U.S. for what we do. We were bought by the 2nd largest firm and then many of us older executives retired and after 2 years they just incorporated the company which had been running under the original name into the larger companies name.
Not a surprise.
We bought smaller companies over the years not for their possible profitability but for the equipment and manpower
Question: Will the SGC booth at The National even open up? If you are not taking on-site submissions and are trying to downsize to pre-Covid levels why fly even one person out? Maybe they have someone there pointing you to the PSA booth.
I don’t plan on selling so not sure what I will do if SGC ceases to exist with my cards. If they offer a crossover special which I highly doubt would consider it. Don’t want my nephews to get GAI prices on a good part of my collection someday when it ultimately goes to them.
What does “boutique grader” mean?
"you heard that the SGC guys didn't want to move to join PSA so PSA built a building right next to SGC in Boca Raton"
Where did you hear this? Has there even been enough time since the SGC acquisition for a building to have been built (maybe one is under construction???)... This is the most valuable piece of information of this entire thread so far... This opens a WHOLE LOT OF QUESTIONS. Number 1 being people send vintage cards to both Florida and California and still get the PSA holder in both places? Hmmm see what I mean
Recently my former rep at Beckett is now with PSA as well.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ohio State Buckeyes - National Champions
I think it means something like one of those trendy Kiosks that used to set up in Malls until the rent got too high.
PSA did almost 9 million cards this year and SGC did less than 1 million. Isn’t SGC already a “boutique” grader? How much smaller does PSA want to shrink them?
Does anyone think BGS or CGC can become the new #2?
I look at boutique like it's high quality low volume. Which would make PSA a mid level brand.
Have any of you submitted through Game Stop?
If either of them have great leadership running their companies they're already having meetings about how to make that happen. If they aren't then they're failing at their jobs.
been thinking about that merger -- makes perfect sense
I dont think I'm going to send in another sports card for grading with anyone based on all of this or buy raw sports cards.
The TCG angle seems to be the only one> @HOMETOWNSPORTS said:
I misspoke on the "built" angle. You are right. That would have taken a while. Just looked it up and they set up an office in the same office park as SGC.
Wow very interesting...you think they will be sealing PSA cards in that SGC building office? Lots of unknowns it seems in terms of what exactly the graders will do there...maybe the whole PSA vintage business will be in Florida...interesting to see how this change unfolds...rock on!
I don’t think a merger between BGS and CGC is necessary for a new #2. What they need is a deep pocketed owner to invest into the business so that they can compete with PSA.
I think BGS would be the best option for #2 grader since they have the history and better hobby name compared to CGC.
Assuming they can retain and get enough new graders, the new BGS should do the following:
So far PSA has generally been good for my hobby experience but I do want competition so that the hobby continues to innovate.
I've noticed recently there is a growing space for the more valuable Pokemon cards in BGS 10 and BGS 10 black label holders. Not sure if folks are just sending PSA 10s over for crossover but it doesn't seem like you see a ton of BGS 9 BGS 8 Pokemon cards, which would lead me to believe not too many people send 100 raw Pokemon cards to Beckett.
Also think Beckett has their space with autograph refractor cards. To be honest I think those cards look better in Beckett holders.
Maybe Beckett is a boutique grader. 🤣 If I ever figure out what that is.
I think the big problem with Beckett on the vintage side is they once slabbed sheet cut cards. So a BGS 9.5 80s card may get 20 to 40% of a PSA 10 sale value.
I agree with the size of the holder being a "thing". I think it works in the sense that if you have an awesome card it works as if you had it custom framed. But for less valuable cards it feels bulky and can take up a lot of space.
With this development, I may never submit a raw sports card for grading again. If I did it probably would be some /499 autograph refractor of a new exciting player like Jacob Wilson or Kurtz and go to Beckett. Or if some new reputable popular card grading company came along. But think it may be easier to buy already graded.
I think this is a bad idea. With more demand for transparency, I think subgrades should be standard and would set Beckett apart. Besides, you don't have to add subgrades for the additional fee to your grading order .
With every reddit social media post complaining about the grades they received from PSA, asking the forum, "Why is this graded an X?" it is usually followed by several posts mentioning (shilling?) for TAG because of how they show the reasons why cards are given a certain grade. More transparency seems to be what's trending.
And why would you need subgrades on a Black Label? By definition it's 10s in all categories.
If you move the 9.5 to a 10, to keep the Black Label 10 premium, I think BGS will need to keep the subs. The black label is the only BGS slab that commands any type of market respect.
For the lower grades I don’t think subs add any value, it can only hurt. I haven’t seen much of a premium for a 9 with great subs, they only get hurt when a sub is 8.5.
PSA and SGC don’t have them and they sell for more than BGS
It seems to me that a BGS 9.5 is a PSA 10. And that a BGS 10 is only for insiders. Similar to a comic book CGC 10.
A BGS 9.5 being 20 to 40 percent of a PSA 10 seems to me to be complete BS. If you say you think that is so because BGS has made errors in the past, PSA has made errors too. There isn't very much consistency in the card grading industry.
BGS has the best slab. BGS likely more name recognition than even PSA. The worst part about BGS is that they have too many service levels. And that their 10 is pretty much an imaginary thing. Far to rare to be considered a legitimate grade compared to other card grading companies 10s.
One dealer once told me that he thought PSA was the McDonalds of sports card grading. Some people really like McDonalds though. PSA does have billions served. Millions served every month? A million cards is quite a lot of cards to go through. Nobody on this board ever says anything about the number of cards BGS goes through a month.
You guys are also talking like the number 2 spot is empty. Misinformation coming from the people who are supposed to be the experts is a big problem.
You seem to be focused on resale value.
Subgrades provide transparency, knowledge and accountability of the grade.
I think most would like to know the thinking behind the grade given, regardless of the grade.
Subgrades definitely add value.
With good centering seemingly being the trend nowadays, a BGS9 with 10-centering/9-edges/9.5-corners/9-surface would most likely be more valuable and easier to sell than a BGS9 with 8.5-centering/9-edges/9-corners/9-surface, especially if finding well centered cards are tough to find in that particular card issue.
Same could be said with surface for Chrome or Refractors, for example.
Are collectors putting more value with a 10-surface subgrade than an 8.5? I'm guessing yes.
I'm assuming you meant "more than BGS," but that is a false conclusion.
Many other factors are reasons for price discrepancy.
Beckett completely blew it by adding BVG and BCCG, using 3 different and alternative grading scales.
If Beckett wanted to gain market shares and restore their grading image, they would have to invest, and likely at a loss, in rounding up all BVG and BCCG slabs and make them disappear, and be only BGS.
Even by offering free crossovers to BGS slabs, what collector would realistically send in their BCCG8 knowing it's likely coming back a BGS4? The genie is definitely out of the bottle on this one, but Beckett seems content on just trudging along. Shame.
CGC is already #2 market share.
This is what I mean by service levels. BGS BVG and BCCG. It dilutes their brand.
I have a few cards graded by BVG. The slabs seem to me to be just as good as BGS. The grades seem to be just as accurate. No subgrades though.
I don't understand why they would have started BCCG. BCCG grades seem to me to be worthless.
Yeah I fat fingered the end while flying back, I fixed it.
Yes I am focused on resale value because better resale will drive market share in grading. I remember when BGS sold for more than PSA and took market share. How many years in a row was BGS “Grader of the Year”, I think at least 3 in the early 2000s. Then it flipped back to PSA and has never looked back.
BGS is slowly fading away for many reasons. It’s sad because they brought on a lot of new innovations. SGC changed their scale from a 100pt scale to 10 and that worked out well. BGS needs to change something or they will vanish tanking values even further
If your BVG grades are accurate, consider yourself lucky.
For a long time now, it’s been known that SGC grades cards pretty well, grades items PSA doesn’t and has a nice looking holder. Their customer service is better than PSA but it’s still not great, and that is with 1/3 to 1/8 of the customers. That’s about where the advantages end for SGC.
The announcements, when taken at face value, state pretty clearly that the plan has changed from the time of acquisition to now. At the time of acquisition, the idea was to basically increase and improve the structures of SGC akin to what was being done (and what they continue to do) at PSA - improvements of capacity, data reports, turnaround times, submission processes, logistics, etc.
This board is full of smart collectors; is it that tough to imagine that PSA simply looked at the state of SGC internally and decided that it wasn’t worth it to grow and invest in that brand at this time? Their population reports and registry alone would require a massive capital investment and their accuracy would no doubt still be in question. Do we even need to discuss the registry?
Now, I think they have a strong enough customer base and a good enough reputation to stay around a while in their present form and there are still plenty of good reasons to submit cards to them: the recently surfaced/graded/auctioned 1952 Topps Mantle 9.5 is a great example:
It is quite attractive in the holder, it’s basically a custom flip unavailable at PSA and since the card is (at the moment it sold, anyway) the card with the highest sale price ever recorded (was it passed by a Wagner yet?), you would think there’s some pretty good staying power and brand recognition for SGC.
If you’ll recall, the purchase of SGC was in part a defensive one: one of the goals of the purchase was to keep SGC away from and out of the hands of the Fanatics group that had just gobbled up the Topps brand and continues to expand into cards and sports memorabilia space.
It’s probably for the best to have SGC stay the same as it will help keep their prices down; capital investment in the company would only serve to drive prices higher more quickly.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
What the heck does “finest known example” mean? Since it’s in quotes, I assume Rosen called it that at some point, but it is still subjective and not worthy of being included on the flip IMO.
The whole thing is (1985 Rosen find - “finest known example”)
Because collectors know what that means. For what that’s worth. Because it’s been quoted they are maintaining that subjectivity regarding the origin of the opinion.
I don’t have a problem with it as it is, but curious what your concern is. Of all of the copies I have seen that in the one I would be most interested in owning. I think that knowing the origin and history of a card, and having that declared in canonical fashion on the flip, is nice with monumental cards like that.
PSA was always going to wind down SGC, makes no sense to run a secondary brand and facility over the long term. The acquisition was the beginning of the end.
The flip saying “Rosen Find” is fine. Considering there were three PSA 10s in that same find, calling this one the “finest known example” is giving Alan Rosen’s opinion more weight than it deserves. Flips are supposed to contain factual information, not opinions. With the obvious exception of the grade itself, which is SGC’s opinion.
So unless the card is graded by the Mr. Mint grading company, I can do without his opinion on the flip.
I was, perhaps incorrectly, interpreting the entire portion of that label. The statement including finest known. As the canonical name. The term or terms used to define the card in the slab. I had not looked at it as SGC making a claim. Anyways. I really liked that SGC 9.5 and took an opportunity to look at it closely when it was on display at the national a few years ago.
It is certainly a beauty, and may well be the nicest one as Rosen thought.
But there is a chance he could have said that quote about every mantle in this find no? He was known as a seller not a grader.
He also tended to say what ever he pleased in order to get a sale.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I’m thinking this was always PSA’s plan for SGC. It makes sense, take the quality people and sell what’s left if anything. It’s a write off anyway.
I also cant place an ounce of significance in someone saying the one that I sold is the best. Maybe if he analyzed every one else's as a judge and said I feel Stan Pinkleton's Mantle is the best, okay, that matters.
But hey you know which one is the best, the one I sold, sorry, to me that doesn't mean anything. I dont think "Finest Known Example" belongs on the flip. I thought Tom Candiotti once owned a PSA 10 52 Mantle. I'm surprised Mr. Mint did not think that was the finest known example. I wonder if he had actually seen every example to be able to fairly crown his own as the Finest.
I just bought a used car from a guy who said it was the best Hyundai he'd ever seen. Now I'm wondering if I was duped.
For what it’s worth, it’s my understanding that this SGC 9.5 and all 3 PSA 10’s came from the same Rosen find. The 9.5 itself has a lot of information available out there about it and it’s obviously a real stunner. Anyway, the guy who had it graded had a letter from Rosen who had handled all four and such excellent provenance probably has a value, too, these days, especially.
That said, while I don’t know it as fact, it’s also a pretty safe bet that the SGC 9.5 went on a trip to Newport Beach first. And, if so, that would also seem to fly in the face of the custom flip…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I don’t need PSA, SGC or AL Rosen to tell me that is as nice as 52 Mantles come. Can’t imagine there are many that are objectively better.
Collectors wanted their immediate competition eliminated, so they grabbed them. That's about 90% of the market they own now. Beckett is a self-inflicted mess that's stuck in early 2000s. Their closest competition now is CGC and PSA just started grading comic books. The biggest complaint is "SGC is better at grading vintage". Well, they are apparently moving those graders to the PSA side. I could see them as a "boutique" grader as mentioned above. Some people like their cases and the fact that they aren't PSA. Jokes on them. I wouldn't doubt the same guys grading vintage SGC are grading vintage PSA.
The goal of any PE-back or public company is to make money.
Grading the same card (or re-holdering) by the same company achieves that goal.
Unfortunately, I predict it will be at the expense of SGC collectors.
Had the president of SGC stayed on & not simply resigned with no CU acknowledgement - I would have more hope for SGC as a long-term brand. Not any longer...
The question becomes what value will SGC cards have in the mid to long-term & in what SGC interative holder will matter (tux or pre-tux)?
My 2nd question would be if CU kills the SGC brand, will they even honor the previous grade in a cross-over? Based upon history, the answer is "no" - compounded by more stringent grading in recent years by CU. However, if they did, a cross-over achieves the main objective - grade the same card over and over again.
What a shame...
My tact for my SGC graded cards is to hold-out and see what happens. It will all likely develope over the next 24 months...
BTW - there used to be an "About Us" or profile of key folks at SGC on their website. I can no longer find it.
Erik