High retail on problem coins
logger7
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A dealer at today's Stormville airport flea market had some very high priced more desirable types of coins mainly in PCI problem holders. One example, an 1893cc Morgan dollar in an AU details PCI "repaired" holder, the coin screamed "problem" from the look. He had it priced at $3K. Pete had another 93cc in an NGC problem holder, VF details, cleaned and scratched. He some 1877 Indian cents in PCI problem holders. It seems that he looked up in Greysheet what the straight grades were and knocked off 10% or so. He had an 1885 Nickel in a PCGS Fair2 holder and wanted over $300 for it, I told him he should look it up on Heritage Auction results. It showed market for that coin worth around $125.
How do you price problem coins? I'd think that substantial deductions at two grade levels (AU to VF) would be necessary if a coin is just ugly and has no price-based merits beyond what the grading company called it a long time ago.
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Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
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Many, if not most problem (detail grade) coins have auction comps that should help determine ballpark market values.
Your example of downgrading an AU coin to VF will work in some instances but it depends upon variables such as the type and severity of the problem, as well as the differences in value for different straight grades of the coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I've looked on HA and it's hard to do apples to apples comparisons. If a coin has some eye appeal with some old light cleaning that's a big difference from a coin that has harsh cleaning or has little eye appeal.
Should depend on the problem. My friends who collect Large cents just net grade them to the price they are worth. They know the market so that answer does not affect you or me. We all know coins with problems are often straight graded. For example, there was a scratched quarter posted on CU straight graded with a CAC bean. That one was not net graded. I guess the answer is that a big-time, professional dealer knows the market and would not need to ask that question. So, you and I will need to wait for one of them to respond. Unfortunately, it probably will depend on the problem.
I have always struggled with this. A few years ago I bought a 1915S (Pan Pacific) $2.50 for $1595. It looked to be a 60-62 but when I had it graded it came back as details cleaned. The dealer was very reputable and said no way, but in the end it’s a rare coin that doesn’t come up often and so I bought it.
I love it and the fact that it might have been cleaned doesn’t diminish how much I like having it in my collection.
It all depends on the quality of the coin. I owned this nicely toned better date for toning in a cleaned holder. It went for well over retail of a generic unc coin. On the other hand, a details coin that has diminished eye appeal, will trade at a discount that could be equal to a coin that is a grade or several grades lower.
Yes, as others have said, it depends on the coin and the problem. There’s no one size fits all rule.
I think because of this, dealing in problem coins can be lucrative. I have a dealer friend, mostly retired now, who switched his business model to handling such coins. He told me he got tired of competing with everyone else to make 5-10% margins on coins with well known markets (paraphrasing).
He was on the national circuit and developed a network of buyers and sellers he worked with all over the country. Some large and well known dealers would get in estates etc. The nice stuff was easy for them to move. But there’d invariably be some with “issues” that they wanted to just “go away”. He started out taking these on consignment, but gradually became more or less a market maker. These were generally tough in demand coins, like 93S and 89CC dollars, early type, early gold, C and D branch mint gold, low mintage coins from popular series, etc. some raw, some slabbed. Most of his clientele were dealers, and he’d guarantee everything as genuine.
The OPs story reminded me of him. He’d have full boat priced on a lot of his coins in the cases, which looked outrageous for what they were. But the folks who knew him knew it was just the MSRP, and his real price was much lower. I don’t even think the dealers who bought from him even looked at the price. If they were interested, they’d make an offer, he’d check his code, then pass or play.
I don't know how well you might remember when Great Collections first began. Think it was around 2012 and back then it seemed to be loaded with "details" coins listed with very high starting bids. The first few years of that site I kept track of a few of these orphans but they just seemed to languish there.
Today just do a search of the Great Collections archive. You will be amazed at some of the prices being paid and the simple volume of coins being traded there. James
I simply don’t do them (problem coins). Nor have any idea on some magic formula on pricing them. The only person who knew anything about pricing problem coins (I knew of) was a problem coin dealer specialist - he had a booming business. He is deceased.
Many buy problem coins to crack out for their albums or for jewelry like a money clip.
Some real world prices on problem coins. Nothing real scarce though.
1869/69 Indian Head Penny ANACS GOOD 4 DETAILS DAMAGED
US $64.99
1877 1c Indian Cent NGC AG Details Environmental Damage
US $424.13
1864 ANACS 1C GOOD 4 DETAILS WITH L CORRODED DAMAGED INDIAN CENT #B48168
US $43.45
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I’ve got some breaking news for you - the deceased “coin dealer specialist” wasn’t the “only person who knew anything about pricing problem coins”. The coin market is a little bit larger than just you and the people you do business with.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One observation I've gleaned from Mark Feld is if you have doubts about buying a coin or spending more money on getting it conserved, etc., don't. Sell it and move on. Heritage sees huge numbers of certified coins in all types of acceptable holders. They don't sell now defunct holder coins for a reason. Ultimately you need to have a positive experience with a coin at a particular price which has issues; the positive is that you get the better date or more desirable issue at a price where you're not going to lose much when you go to sell.
Even if the 1877 Indian cent is an EF problem coin with unattractive surfaces who wants it? It GS is around $1800, but if it has multiple issues is it even worth $800? The grade level even can be a little subjective. When you combine "cleaned", "damaged", "whizzed", environmental deterioration, etc., value can go down a lot.
I have been amazed at what problem coins are bringing these days. A few years ago I was surprised when I saw them in Heritage "Platinum Sales." Years ago such coins would not have even made it into a major auction. Since then I've learned that it's the price, not the quality, which makes a coin eligible for the high priced auctions.
The general rule is if the problem is minor, it brings the price down by a grade. If it is worse, the discounts grow larger. How large is a matter of perception. One man's "terrible coin" is another man's "acceptable coin" or even "Gem in the Rough."
The exceptions are extremely rare varieties. Some varieties are only known in damaged condition. When I was at a 4C presentation, I saw so really awful coins which here highly prized because they were the only examples known of a very rare die variety. Each to their own, but I would have to pass on that.
On the subject of 1877 Indian cents, since the beginning of last year, Heritage has auctioned more than 30 detail-grade business strike examples. And since you mentioned “EF” (XF), here are some results for them:
PCGS XF Damaged $1560
PCGS XF Cleaned $1560
NGC XF Corrosion $960
NGC XF Cleaned $1560
Those prices compare to current straight grade CDN numbers of:
XF40 at $2100
VF35 at $1800
VF30 at $1550
VF25 at $1350
VF 20 at $1250
F15 at $1050
F12 at $900
Here are some general observations about pricing of detail grade coins…
Typically, a “improperly cleaned” coin will bring more than a scratched, damaged, harshly cleaned, corroded or environmentally damaged one.
A “questionable color” coin will often bring more than most of the above, unless the “questionable” part is an obvious understatement.😉
The drop in price for a detail-grade circulated coin is usually less severe than for an uncirculated one. And once you get down to really low grades, such as VG, the difference in price for a problem example can be quite small.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can confirm without a doubt that rarer date coins 1852-O Seated Half, 1838-O Half Dime, and rare Seated die varieties etc. have prices in lower grades where detail seems to be of no importance. At least based on the number of auction losses I have racked up. James
I can accept details-graded coins from the 18th century and earlier if the problems are caused “naturally” or if there was no intent to deceive or improve the coin. Light corrosion, light damage or scratches are acceptable for early coins, for example. I own a details beautiful 6400 reis with a private counterstamp, which adds to its interest. I don’t own any US federal coins with problems. Too many non-problem coins available.
As a broad generalization , most details coins tend to be worth somewhere in the realm of 35%-50% of the equivalent coin in a straight grade. Ultimately it will depend on a large number of factors as we all know, with the absolute rarity and severity of the defect/s being the most important. Smart purchases of problem coins can be very lucrative for the savvy, especially if it changes status to straight grade somewhere down the line.
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That's my hope for this coin someday.
I essentially paid full retail for a harshly cleaned and scratched Fair-2 of this R7 die marriage: 1874-S WB-5.
However, I have managed to resist paying over $510 for a corroded F12 details 1877-CC WB-5 (R6) so far. The CU Coin Prices lists a 77-CC in F12 at $275. For those interested in paying way too much money for a corroded rare DM like I usually do, it's closing on eBay in 5 hours.
Pete is a retired geologist, has an excellent supply of gemstones and neat and varied rocks along with some of the coins he puts out at the flea market.
The seasonal flea markets are always full of interesting things for the kids and adults. Antiques, cottage industry products and food, carnivorous plants, used and new clothing.....
I took a chance on this one in an auction a few year ago. It did not straight grade but it's still an awesome coin.
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My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
Details coins are great for albums (as long as the coin still fits)
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Need a personalized album made? Design it on the website below and I'll build it for you.
https://www.donahuenumismatics.com/.
That’s ok I don’t look for problem material.
I’d like a better understanding of problem severity in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. I think we all would. I know I see coins with issues in straight grade holders that I consider “problems”. How do the graders consider these “cosmetic attempts at conservatism” when a coin may have other balancing positive attributes?
Put in context, say a beautiful, original, rare and important coin is stored in a PVC flip for decades and develops a tiny active spot. The spot is subsequently neutralized and a spot remains. I think we can all agree the right thing was done, but does that make it a problem coin? Maybe. Taken further, what if the same remaining spot is recolored? Then what? The point is, coins with problems like these (and others) get through, so where are the lines drawn, and how?
Maybe it’s gut feelings all the way 🤷🏻♂️
Empty Nest Collection
I think you’ve answered your own questions. There aren’t objective measurements and tests upon which graders can make such decisions. So it comes down to making calls based on knowledge, experience and a consideration of the unique positive and negative characteristics of each coin.
That applies to assigning numerical grades as well as whether to detail-grade a coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My guess is the nature of flea markets caused the dealer to price high. For example, if he priced the 1885 V nickel at $125 market value, every single potential buyer would offer $65 "CASH MONEY NOW" or "I ONLY GOT $60". Did you ask what his bottom line was on those coins? That's the real price he's asking.
Actually he said he paid too much for a lot of these coins; and as a meticulous businessman with a notebook record where he would look up what he paid I believe him.
Interesting stats on prob Val vs straight Val above (good luck with them) however >>>
I would not buy a problem coin but spend that money on a nice straight graded coin investment grade CACG or PCGS MS64 or higher. Yes there are people who may spend big $ on some prob coin / that’s them, their hobby, their money, risk. Best of luck. I am not an auctioneer but bet they get a lot of prob big ticket coins.
A prob coin dealer setup next to me one time seemed to do well (but small value stuff) however did sell a big ticket prob coin ($1800) but was real afraid the buyer might come back the next day (Sunday) for refund. He said he really needed the money asked me what I would do. The customer never showed, must of liked the coin. I found out a few months later that dealer died.
In this new age of CACG Have u seen any problem coin dealers lately? My impression they are a rare breed.
Is it just me or do Cougar's dealer friends remind you of the drummers from Spinal Tap?
I really miss Stumpy Pete. Damn those gardening accidents.