PCGS guarantee on copper coins… ?
asheland
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A thread from last week really got me curious about PCGS and their copper guarantee.
I’ve discussed this with some friends in person, I have one friend that is convinced that PCGS does not guarantee their copper whatsoever. Other than the fact it’s authentic, but grade and color are completely not guaranteed.
Is that correct?
The way I read it, is if there is environmental change from improper storage, etc., that isn’t guaranteed and that makes perfect sense, but problem free copper, especially brown copper, is the grade not guaranteed?
I’m not personally worried about any of the coins in my collection because I usually am very choosy and find nice, stable coins, but I’m just very curious about this after having discussed it recently.
According to my friend, the following Coins, here are not guaranteed by PCGS whatsoever. They are basically raw coins, except only authenticity is guaranteed…
Comments
I don’t know what the policy is, but I agree that choosing brown copper is probably the safest option.
I own a number of AU and MS large cents, some for many decades, in both PCGS and NGC holders, as well as some in envelopes and a 7070 Dansco. I live in FL near the coast, and use minimal desiccants. None have ever developed spots, verdigris, haze, etc.
Frankly I think the bigger issue was probably with red cents that had been cleverly cleaned and slipped through the grading room, only to have their unstable surfaces change over time.
Look at some of the Randall hoard cents, many of the original pieces still display red after 200+ years. They aren’t going to be changing unless something disastrous happens to them.
PS- if your friend has any high grade PCGS large cents he’s selling as raw coins, let me know!
Per Grok:
Limitations of the PCGS Guarantee for Copper Cents:
Copper coins, including cents, are particularly sensitive to environmental factors like humidity, which can cause changes in color, spotting, or corrosion. As a result, PCGS has specific exclusions for copper cents:
Color Changes:
PCGS does not guarantee the color of copper coins (e.g., Red, Red-Brown, or Brown designations) for coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010. For example, a cent graded as "Red" (RD, indicating over 95% original red color) may naturally turn to Red-Brown (RB) or Brown (BN) over time due to environmental exposure, and this change is not covered by the guarantee.
Spotting and Environmental Deterioration:
The guarantee does not cover spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, or corrosion that develops after encapsulation due to improper storage (e.g., high humidity) or environmental damage (e.g., flood or fire). For instance, a 1963 Lincoln cent PR70DCAM developed minor spots after grading, and while it was covered under an earlier guarantee, post-2010 policies exclude such issues.
Latent Manufacturing Issues:
If a copper cent develops damage due to a latent manufacturing flaw (e.g., a planchet lamination breaking loose, as seen with an 1849-D gold dollar), the guarantee does not apply.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I think it depends on what you mean by "guaranteed". The "guarantee" is NOT absolute, including the numerical grade. However, if the issue is not corrosion, PVC etc, the grade guarantee should be in place. They are not guaranteeing against changes in the holder.
Here is the pcgs guarantee page and the original announcement. The current pcgs page does not have the effective date in it.
https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee
https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-grading-guarantee-update
And a thread from the time of the announcement. This thread has some who expressed what @Walkerguy21D noted above about cleaning or messing with the copper color and subsequent changes.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/751680/pcgs-to-no-longer-guarantee-rd-rb-on-copper-coins/p1
Here are a couple of applicable sections from the guarantee page and original announcement.
Guarantee:
"Coins that are environmentally damaged. The PCGS holder, while excellent for long term storage and protection, does not protect coins from harsh environmental conditions. Consequently, the PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins which have been environmentally damaged. For example, if your coins are damaged in a flood or fire, the PCGS Guarantee would not apply to those coins. This also applies to copper coins stored in environmentally risky locations (high humidity, see next paragraph.)
Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion.
IMPORTANT: Because the color and surfaces of copper coins can change due to environmental factors, including weather and improper storage, PCGS does not guarantee against changes in the color of copper coins, or against copper spotting subsequent to grading and encapsulation by PCGS."
Announcement:
"We've also made a change in how we handle the guarantee of color for copper coins. The fact is that color for copper can change depending upon where a coin is stored. The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins. This is obviously beyond our control so consequently we will not be guaranteeing the color of copper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010."
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=m3lF2qEA2cw - Creep (Radiohead cover) via Haley Reinhart & Postmodern Jukebox
RLJ 1958 - 2023
There’s a guarantee in place at the time the coin’s graded. After that, if it deteriorates in the holder, the guarantee for grade and/or color is void. The guarantee for authenticity is unaffected.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I mean...what other factors would ever affect the numerical grade, other than changes in the holder? I think we can rule out contact marks and wear....but if there's an exclusion for any and all types of environmental changes, including spotting, hazing, PVC, and corrosion, what else is there?
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Your friend is correct, all the PCGS guarantee covers is the authenticity aspect for copper. Everything else can be blamed on poor storage and environmental damage, especially when you consider that it is PCGS making the determination on what happened.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The BIG ONE: "Market acceptability". I have seen all sorts of problem coins on this forum and others that are straight graded. Nevertheless, I'll bet most of these would come under "that's our grading standard" if sent back for review.
Probably cac has the best guarantee on these. https://www.cacgrading.com/legal/gradingpolicy My guess the legal boilerplate that PCGS and NGC uses is to give them wriggle room so their policy is not abused.
.
Seems to be very close to the pcgs guarantee.
EXCLUSIONS FROM THE CAC GUARANTEE
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yq4KA0mUnC8 - Dream On (Aerosmith cover) via Morgan James & Postmodern Jukebox
https://youtube.com/watch?v=m3lF2qEA2cw - Creep (Radiohead cover) via Haley Reinhart & Postmodern Jukebox
RLJ 1958 - 2023
That's largely legal boilerplate. It all comes down to how they handle the claims. In my experience PCGS took 3 months on them, NGC was relatively fast, I've never done a cac claim, though have heard that they are easy to work with.
And it’s very similar to that from NGC and PCGS. So how did you arrive at your statement that
“ Probably cac has the best guarantee on these.”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nothing more than authenticity is "guaranteed" plain and simple. A firm can say they have a guarantee, but usually those statements are not worth anything more than the paper they are printed, full of exceptions and excuses why your item is not covered. TPGs are no different. Raw in a slab.
WHAT!!! 😱
Empty Nest Collection
They seem to be the most professional and quick to respond. Others may have personal experiences on each.
I'm referring to an error in the original grade. If the coin is in a 63 holder but has light wear and is deemed to not actually be uncirculated, the grade guarantee should still be in place. [Of course, they may claim mechanical error.]
AU coins (light wear) have been slabbed as MS for decades so you will not win that argument with a TPGS.
Besides, I don't see how a grade difference of a grade point could ever be called a mechanical error. They save that for the PR/MS nickel series coins.
Non MS copper is not labeled as to colour anyway so not sure what guarantee would be desired on these type of coins.
Thanks everybody for the replies 👍
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You may or may not win that argument. Not ALL wear is MA. They do guarantee the original grade against errors (like wear or damage) that existed at the time of slabbing. What they do not guarantee is stability of the coin in the holder. It's that simple. (Or that complicated, as people are still arguing about it )
Sorry, what is MA?
Market acceptable
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.