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Some Morgan proofs have hairlines, correct?

Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Can you possibly post an image of a proofs hairlines poping out?
They must show up at a certain angle.
I've never seen one before and I would appreciate.
Thank you

Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
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Comments

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2025 9:34AM

    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    The 1895 looks like it’s been wiped, the 1897 - cleaned/wiped, and the 1901 - possibly lightly circulated.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Hairline scratches tend to be noticeable on proofs due to the smooth reflective surfaces of the fields. They generally do not go all the way up to devices because the rag or whatever wiped the coin could not really get into the protected areas. What is also possible is a local patch of hairlines where the coin may have been accidentally rubbed, or from contact with packing or who knows what else. They may or my not be parallel. In my experience this is often seen in the right field of proof walking liberty halves.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2025 11:46AM

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Hairline scratches tend to be noticeable on proofs due to the smooth reflective surfaces of the fields. They generally do not go all the way up to devices because the rag or whatever wiped the coin could not really get into the protected areas. What is also possible is a local patch of hairlines where the coin may have been accidentally rubbed, or from contact with packing or who knows what else. They may or my not be parallel. In my experience this is often seen in the right field of proof walking liberty halves.

    Admittedly, I’m particular, so I draw a distinction between “hairlines and “hairline scratches”. And that’s even though I can’t give a precise definition of where - pun not intended - I draw that “line”.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2025 4:21PM

    Great information! I was unaware of this common hairline condition.

    Speculation here: is the high percentage with hairlines a result of less than optimal storage, or more likely most have been wiped at some point?
    I suppose we will never know if they came from the mint that way.

    Edit to say: this thread below was just posted and sort of answered my question https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1114731/scratchy-proof-coins-from-us-mint-customer-service-was-incompetent-and-arrogant-from-1886#latest

    https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Hairline scratches tend to be noticeable on proofs due to the smooth reflective surfaces of the fields. They generally do not go all the way up to devices because the rag or whatever wiped the coin could not really get into the protected areas. What is also possible is a local patch of hairlines where the coin may have been accidentally rubbed, or from contact with packing or who knows what else. They may or my not be parallel. In my experience this is often seen in the right field of proof walking liberty halves.

    Admittedly, I’m particular, so I draw a distinction between “hairlines and “hairline scratches”. And that’s even though I can’t give a precise definition of where - pun not intended - I draw that “line”.

    I always assumed that "hairlines" was just short form for "hairline scratches". They are all scratches, after all.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Hairline scratches tend to be noticeable on proofs due to the smooth reflective surfaces of the fields. They generally do not go all the way up to devices because the rag or whatever wiped the coin could not really get into the protected areas. What is also possible is a local patch of hairlines where the coin may have been accidentally rubbed, or from contact with packing or who knows what else. They may or my not be parallel. In my experience this is often seen in the right field of proof walking liberty halves.

    Admittedly, I’m particular, so I draw a distinction between “hairlines and “hairline scratches”. And that’s even though I can’t give a precise definition of where - pun not intended - I draw that “line”.

    I always assumed that "hairlines" was just short form for "hairline scratches". They are all scratches, after all.

    No argument about all of them being various degrees of scratches. Below is how AI distinguished them and it’s similar to how I’ve viewed them. I distinguish between the two terms when describing coins.
    “hairlines are the most delicate type of scratch, while hairline scratches can be slightly deeper and wider.”

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,373 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Hairline scratches tend to be noticeable on proofs due to the smooth reflective surfaces of the fields. They generally do not go all the way up to devices because the rag or whatever wiped the coin could not really get into the protected areas. What is also possible is a local patch of hairlines where the coin may have been accidentally rubbed, or from contact with packing or who knows what else. They may or my not be parallel. In my experience this is often seen in the right field of proof walking liberty halves.

    Admittedly, I’m particular, so I draw a distinction between “hairlines and “hairline scratches”. And that’s even though I can’t give a precise definition of where - pun not intended - I draw that “line”.

    I always assumed that "hairlines" was just short form for "hairline scratches". They are all scratches, after all.

    I've always thought of "hairlines" as dense patches--usually parallel to each other--of light scratches (as you'd get when wiping a coin with a cloth, for example), and hairline scratches as stray, thin scratches (thin meaning they're visible--perhaps only at some angles--but they aren't the deeper cuts that usually show raised metal on either side). Some coins may have a bunch of stray hairline scratches in random directions, but even with those, it's usually clear they weren't imparted together in one fell swoop.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Hairline scratches tend to be noticeable on proofs due to the smooth reflective surfaces of the fields. They generally do not go all the way up to devices because the rag or whatever wiped the coin could not really get into the protected areas. What is also possible is a local patch of hairlines where the coin may have been accidentally rubbed, or from contact with packing or who knows what else. They may or my not be parallel. In my experience this is often seen in the right field of proof walking liberty halves.

    Admittedly, I’m particular, so I draw a distinction between “hairlines and “hairline scratches”. And that’s even though I can’t give a precise definition of where - pun not intended - I draw that “line”.

    Now you're splitting hairs. The term "hairlines" is just shorthand for "hairline scratches" which are very fine scratches that are no wider than a hair.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m with Mark, I know what passes muster for me when I see it. Anyone care to say the highest grade they have seen with hairlines visible without a loupe?

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:

    @ChrisH821 said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    Hairline scratches tend to be noticeable on proofs due to the smooth reflective surfaces of the fields. They generally do not go all the way up to devices because the rag or whatever wiped the coin could not really get into the protected areas. What is also possible is a local patch of hairlines where the coin may have been accidentally rubbed, or from contact with packing or who knows what else. They may or my not be parallel. In my experience this is often seen in the right field of proof walking liberty halves.

    Admittedly, I’m particular, so I draw a distinction between “hairlines and “hairline scratches”. And that’s even though I can’t give a precise definition of where - pun not intended - I draw that “line”.

    Now you're splitting hairs. The term "hairlines" is just shorthand for "hairline scratches" which are very fine scratches that are no wider than a hair.

    I very well might be guilty, as charged, of splitting hairs. But scratches (and hairlines) can obviously be of markedly different degrees. Call them all scratches, distinguish between heavy and light scratches or however you please. But the distinction of “hairlines” vs. “hairline scratches” works for me and for those to whom I describe coins.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I own this 1884 CC with really fine hairlines. It was in an anacs UDM holder. I saw the hairlines but know I'll never sell it.
    The surfaces are completely glass which is why these hairlines show up so well. I honestly believe it was not wiped. I'm sure many here will disagree with me.
    I could shave with these mirrors.
    I won't go out on a limb and say it's a proof even though they have a branch proof.
    It's one of my favorite coins.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • TypekatTypekat Posts: 530 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m guessing that many of the lines on that 1884-CC are light die polish lines.
    The line thru the B of Pluribus certainly is.

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Typekat said:
    I’m guessing that many of the lines on that 1884-CC are light die polish lines.
    The line thru the B of Pluribus certainly is.

    That's what I think it is also.
    I cannot for the life of me imagine someone saying "hey this Morgan has mirrors like a proof, it's time to shine her up".
    I paid $800 for it on ebay and have no regrets about taking it out of the modern anacs holder.
    If it was in a soap bar like the other UDM I own I wouldn't even think about it.
    This is one of those coins you wish you could pass around because you can see your eyes holding out as far as you can.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldabeintx said:

    I’m with Mark, I know what passes muster for me when I see it. Anyone care to say the highest grade they have seen with hairlines visible without a loupe?

    On non- moderns, definitely a good quantity of 68’s and probably a small number of 69’s.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:
    I own this 1884 CC with really fine hairlines. It was in an anacs UDM holder. I saw the hairlines but know I'll never sell it.
    The surfaces are completely glass which is why these hairlines show up so well. I honestly believe it was not wiped. I'm sure many here will disagree with me.
    I could shave with these mirrors.
    I won't go out on a limb and say it's a proof even though they have a branch proof.
    It's one of my favorite coins.

    There look to be multiple obverse die polish lines. And be glad you didn’t go out on a limb and claim that the coin was proof. If you had I would have sawed off the limb, myself. 😉

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2025 5:18PM

    @MFeld
    My point is more towards could it have been minted this way.
    It's really a magnificent coin to own.
    BTW I get your humor.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • bhinkle87bhinkle87 Posts: 35 ✭✭

    It took me awhile to find my 1884 PCGSPR63CAM.
    This is a proof Morgan, right?
    Here are the seller's great pictures, that I had saved.


  • bhinkle87bhinkle87 Posts: 35 ✭✭

    SORRY, I meant to drag this seller's picture of the reverse.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bhinkle87 said:
    It took me awhile to find my 1884 PCGSPR63CAM.
    This is a proof Morgan, right?
    Here are the seller's great pictures, that I had saved.


    Yes, it’s certainly a Proof Morgan and a nice looking one, at that.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2025 5:21PM

    Nice proof!
    @bhinkle87
    Why only a 63 do you think?
    It looks like an amazing coin.
    I'd really like to see some nice crisp images of it.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    The 1895 looks like it’s been wiped, the 1897 - cleaned/wiped, and the 1901 - possibly lightly circulated.

    @MFeld?
    Did they all straight grade?

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    @MFeld yes those are good examples. I can see that the hairlines do not touch the devices like the stars, letters and cameo
    They look wiped.
    Am I correct about that?

    The 1895 looks like it’s been wiped, the 1897 - cleaned/wiped, and the 1901 - possibly lightly circulated.

    @MFeld?
    Did they all straight grade?

    Yes.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many of the proofs I've seen lack the eye appeal of the DMPLs.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldabeintx said:
    I’m with Mark, I know what passes muster for me when I see it. Anyone care to say the highest grade they have seen with hairlines visible without a loupe?

    Take this with a grain of salt, in my somewhat limited non-Morgan experience hairlines are as follows:
    PR64(quite noticeable but still decent looking coin), PR65(somewhat noticeable), PR66(not very noticeable), PR67(you really have to search for any)
    I have taken issue with some PR68 (WLH) trueviews that seem to have some visible parallel hairlines which should be unacceptable at that level.
    I think the same logic would apply for any series.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 6,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:
    I own this 1884 CC with really fine hairlines. It was in an anacs UDM holder. I saw the hairlines but know I'll never sell it.
    The surfaces are completely glass which is why these hairlines show up so well. I honestly believe it was not wiped. I'm sure many here will disagree with me.
    I could shave with these mirrors.
    I won't go out on a limb and say it's a proof even though they have a branch proof.
    It's one of my favorite coins.

    A lot of times what I'll do when wondering if they are die polish lines, I'll go through the Coinfacts archives to see if I can find coins with the exact same lines. Often times I can find a duplicate which definitely answers the question.

    http://ProofCollection.Net

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    I own this 1884 CC with really fine hairlines. It was in an anacs UDM holder. I saw the hairlines but know I'll never sell it.
    The surfaces are completely glass which is why these hairlines show up so well. I honestly believe it was not wiped. I'm sure many here will disagree with me.
    I could shave with these mirrors.
    I won't go out on a limb and say it's a proof even though they have a branch proof.
    It's one of my favorite coins.

    A lot of times what I'll do when wondering if they are die polish lines, I'll go through the Coinfacts archives to see if I can find coins with the exact same lines. Often times I can find a duplicate which definitely answers the question.

    I understand what your saying and I will spend some time looking at the Coinfacts archives.
    I just thought this might be good subject matter to discuss. I was also hoping to see more images.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 4,488 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    I own this 1884 CC with really fine hairlines. It was in an anacs UDM holder. I saw the hairlines but know I'll never sell it.
    The surfaces are completely glass which is why these hairlines show up so well. I honestly believe it was not wiped. I'm sure many here will disagree with me.
    I could shave with these mirrors.
    I won't go out on a limb and say it's a proof even though they have a branch proof.
    It's one of my favorite coins.

    A lot of times what I'll do when wondering if they are die polish lines, I'll go through the Coinfacts archives to see if I can find coins with the exact same lines. Often times I can find a duplicate which definitely answers the question.

    I understand what your saying and I will spend some time looking at the Coinfacts archives.
    I just thought this might be good subject matter to discuss. I was also hoping to see more images.

    Images aren’t really going to help you here, most images aren’t taken in a way that showcases hairlines. You need to look at some videos, or better yet, coins 🙂. For videos, I’d stroll over to instagram, if you have an account, I can make some recommendations.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
    Website
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  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PeakRarities said:

    @Morgan13 said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    I own this 1884 CC with really fine hairlines. It was in an anacs UDM holder. I saw the hairlines but know I'll never sell it.
    The surfaces are completely glass which is why these hairlines show up so well. I honestly believe it was not wiped. I'm sure many here will disagree with me.
    I could shave with these mirrors.
    I won't go out on a limb and say it's a proof even though they have a branch proof.
    It's one of my favorite coins.

    A lot of times what I'll do when wondering if they are die polish lines, I'll go through the Coinfacts archives to see if I can find coins with the exact same lines. Often times I can find a duplicate which definitely answers the question.

    I understand what your saying and I will spend some time looking at the Coinfacts archives.
    I just thought this might be good subject matter to discuss. I was also hoping to see more images.

    Images aren’t really going to help you here, most images aren’t taken in a way that showcases hairlines. You need to look at some videos, or better yet, coins 🙂. For videos, I’d stroll over to instagram, if you have an account, I can make some recommendations.

    I was just hoping to open up a thread on this forum that would be entertaining and educational.
    I was also hoping to get some answers on my coin which I have.
    I definetly appreciate your advice and offer to help educate me. I will be surfing the web as usual in my free time.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2025 4:52AM

    @lilolme said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    I just thought this might be good subject matter to discuss. I was also hoping to see more images.

    I have posted this one before (it is Not mine). King of the Morgan CC die polish.

    Dam that is amazing. The coin you posted has a nice clash mark and doubling of the feathers making it look like a 7/8.
    I wouldn't mind owning a coin like that. I think alot of Morgan collectors might pass becasue of the polish lines. I kind of like them as long as they have a deep mirror that goes with them.
    Thanks for posting that image.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2025 1:34AM

    I found the reverse on coinfacts on multiple coins have the identical polish marks between the left wing curve and head.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I may be wrong but besides the die polishing which transfers as raised hairlines on all coins struck from die, the blank planchet could have also been polished before striking.

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