Grading companies that offered a Guarantee but later suspended?
islemangu
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I’ve had just one experience of a slabbed overgraded coin submitted for the guarantee and it was really smooth. It would seem that any new fledgling grading company would offer the guarantee out of the gates but difficult to maintain farther down the track?
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I'm not sure what you are asking. Guarantees (obviously) expire when the company expires. There are also cases where grading companies basically expired and were resurrected.
Sounds like you didn't have a problem. I also see your point. A lot of coins have been graded and regraded since 1986 and gradflation has occurred. The only thing I know of that is not guaranteed has to do with spots are not covered for bullion.
PS I notice lots of view for your post but only one reply. Writing about grading services may be taboo.
Usually, but not always. I got a broken Craftsman socket wrench I purchased in 1990 replaced by Lowes (one of the companies who bought the Craftsman brand from defunct Sears). Saved me $40.
Sometimes grading guarantees are changed or rescinded. But even when not, the company offering a grading guarantee gets to determine whether they over-graded the coin. That would seem to make it difficult to be objective.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I am not really familiar with ANACS, but here it goes.
Looks like ANACS started in the 70's. Initially, just confirming authenticity (1972), then assigning grades (1979). Reference
As of 2007, their guarantee covered encapsulated coins (1989 - 2007), with exceptions. Reference
Right now, their guarantee covers coins encapsulated starting 1/1/2008, with exceptions.
Source (Downloaded 6/14/25): https://anacs.com/the-anacs-guarantee/
All the TPGs have watered their guarantees down by eliminating color or contamination from their coverage. It’s a fluid thing and old school they also used to treat collectors with a tad more leeway than dealers. Haven’t done it in years to give the newer more corporate perspective
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What does that have to do with the grading companies? Craftsman didn't expire, it was sold along with its liabilities.
I think ANACS, ICG, and NGC have been sold yet their guarantee (watered down?) is still in effect for coins slabbed in the past - similar to Craftsman. Am I wrong?
PS I just returned a craftsman jump starter/power source today that I bought last weekend because it was defective. No questions asked and got a replacement.
NGC does not guarantee their copper coins after 10 years.
For me that means no NGC copper!
Especially when you have a red coin in an old holder, that is actually stable.
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Why single out NGC? At least NGC guarantees the color designation on the copper coins they slab for 10 years. If the color doesn't change after 10 years you can safely assume that it's stable. PCGS no longer guarantees the color designation on the copper coins that they slab.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Than surely, for him, that means no PCGS copper, either.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I doubt that ANACs, ICG, and CACG guarantees the color designation of the copper they slab. I guess that
@asheland will be collecting only raw copper coins from now on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
SEGS, Inc. shut down one Friday, and SEGS LLC opened up on Monday.
SEGS LLC said we do not honor the guarantee of the former company.
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I can understand the NGC policy concerning the color of a copper coin, but I am not happy with their policy of dropping their guarantees completely for copper coins. The color of copper coins can change over time. Authenticity does not.
Where does NGC say they don't guarantee the authenticity of the copper coins that they slabbed?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Are you saying that NGC doesn’t guarantee the authenticity (as opposed to the color and grade) of copper coins they encapsulate? If so, where is that stated?
See below for the wording of the PCGS and NGC guarantees with respect to copper coins. From what I can see, PCGS doesn’t offer a guarantee for copper coins, whereas NGC offers one for up to 10 years from the time of their grading.
PCGS on copper coins: “IMPORTANT: Because the color and surfaces of copper coins can change due to environmental factors, including weather and improper storage, PCGS does not guarantee against changes in the color of copper coins, or against copper spotting subsequent to grading and encapsulation by PCGS.” https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee
NGC on copper coins: “Coins made of copper, bronze and brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated Coins, the grade portion of this Guarantee will no longer apply after the 10-year anniversary of their date of grading. The expiration date of the grade portion of this Guarantee can be found by entering the Coin’s NGC certification number in the Verify NGC Certification section of the NGC website (http://ngccoin.com/verify) or by contacting NGC Customer Service.” https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/ngc-guarantee/
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Some did, some didn't. NGC and PCGS sales maintained the guarantees because they were straight sales. To use my term, they weren't expired and reconstituted. SEGS did not. I'm also not sure about all generations of PCI or ICG. One of them i thought had conditions on the guarantees but I don't remember the details
Anacs does not guarantee the grade of their small white holder coins, just the authenticity. If you want them reslabbed they will put them in the "blue holders" which have the authenticity but not the grade guarantee. The gold holders do have a grade guarantee. ICG still apparently guarantees the grades of coins graded under prior ownership when they were in Colorado.
That may be what I'm (vaguely) remembering.
Maybe so, but NGC should explicitly say that they still stand by their product with respect to authenticity. The wording makes it sound like they are walking away from everything after ten years. Even so, it definitely means that they won’t stand by their grade for brown copper after 10 years. It makes their guarantee look very flimsy.
And that 10 year guarantee for brown (as well as RB and RD) copper is 10 years longer than what PCGS offers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Does the grade guarantee mean much when the grading service who assigned the grade is the ultimate arbiter of whether their assigned grade is correct or not?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Shush. Reviews are just one part of a changing game with no set rules. Those who need the grading/authentication/price crutch (that's most of us) to buy a coin SHOULD CONSIDER THEMSELVES LUCKY that the TPGS game is available.
Please don’t “Shush”.
To me, “when the grading service who assigned the grade is the ultimate arbiter of whether their assigned grade is correct or not” doesn’t mean much. And that’s why within my initial post to this thread I wrote “…the company offering a grading guarantee gets to determine whether they over-graded the coin. That would seem to make it difficult to be objective.”
However lucky those who need grading/authentication crutches may be that the TPG’s are available, the TPG’s are equally lucky that customers, buyers and sellers support them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Collectors and dealers are forced to support them. It is for their own good if they don't have the knowledge. A TPG coin is usually worth more money and easier to sell. David Hall and his investors were genius and brought significant change to the coin business including the auction houses.
It's important to note the 10 year clock on NGC copper is from the slabbing date. I believe if you get a copper coin reholdered 9 years after the original slabbing, the clock starts again (so the guarantee extends to 19 years).
As a practical matter they are the final arbiters—if you elect to submit to a TPG for the guarantee review process.
Theoretically, could bypass review process and litigate (in California for PCGS, Florida for NGC). But the value of many coins, compared to the expense and inconveniences of litigation……
Interesting issue if a guarantee can be unilaterally altered after certification—e.g. modifications of contract terms after a transaction is complete/grading fee already paid. Submitter/current owner could argue that’s not what was paid for/promised, and the version of guarantee in effect when the coin was certified controls.
If guarantee in effect was more liberal when previously slabbed, might be something to consider in the decision-making process whether to to crack & resubmit, e.g. is the value of the potential bump versus a lesser guarantee
Don't believe what people write here without seeing the proof but I've seen one Unc Type coin slabbed as a 64 by a top TPGS that I was told was sent for review because of major crimper damage. I was told that the company sent the coin back unchanged in the same slab! I'm wondering if the grades are covered for review coins. I don't see how it would matter. One of the best things my coin club does before the meeting starts is to cover a slab grade and play GTG. The lighting is not ideal and we are looking through the plastic so it is not that easy.
That a bogus comment. The SWH were produced under ownership by the ANA and then Amos Press. That FOUR and THERE owners ago. Blue labels are leftovers from Anderson Press (-2).
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
https://anacs.com/the-anacs-guarantee/
"Coins that were certified by ANACS under previous ownership will be reholdered in the ANACS blue label. Coins that were certified since January 1, 2008, when ANACS began its new ownership, will be reholdered using the ANACS gold label."
ANACS (American Numismatic Association Certification Service) does not guarantee the grade of coins encapsulated in their Blue Label holders
Except the blue labels under Anderson ownership were the loosest, least respected of the bunch. ANACS have fought long and hard over many years to regain the respectability they had once-upon-a-time. The SWH still have some cachet and maybe a tiny premium. Why would you ...
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I agree, the way it reads on the CERT verification. It appears that they completely walk away from any and all guarantees after 10 years. That’s what I don’t like.
And I will admit, I wasn’t aware of PCGS not standing by the color guarantee.
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I’m not so much worried about the color guarantee, it’s just not guaranteeing the coin at all is my issue.
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Admittedly, I have not seen the NGC CERT verification for a Cu item. But, I have reviewed the more comprehensive 'NGC Guarantee'. And, here is my take on the issue.
The 'NGC Guarantee' covers three things: genuineness, over-grading, and authentic label autographs. So, any item in a NGC holder is guaranteed to be genuine, or authentic, except for graded Ancients.
In the exclusions, the 'NGC Guarantee' states that the "grade portion of this Guarantee" has a ten year timer on specific metals. Note that it specifically disavows the "GRADE PORTION" of the guarantee; it does not explicitly void the other aspects of the guarantee (i.e., genuineness and authentic label autograph). So, to me, the authenticity guarantee is still in effect when the 10 year period expires.
Source of Screenshots: https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/ngc-guarantee/
Edited for a typo.
Thank you for that. I agree about NGC continuing to guarantee authenticity of coins they’ve encapsulated after they no longer guarantee the grade and/or color.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My only question is, let’s say it’s a Chain Cent in AU50, obviously that’s going to be a brown coin… But after 10 years, they’re not gonna stand by the fact it’s an AU50?
That’s my only problem with it. The color part I completely understand, lots of stuff does change in the holders that’s kind of a buyer beware… I just don’t like the part about not standing by the actual grade. When that wouldn’t change, It’s just the color that would change…
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@PerryHall the part you brought up about PCGS not standing by the color designation, can you show me that?
I will admit, I was completely unaware of that…
And CACG for that matter… what are the specifics? And is this just only for copper and bronze?
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And for the record, I would still buy copper in NGC holders, I’m just not crazy about the situation. obviously, if I find a red IHC in a fatty, even though there’s no guarantee anymore, if it’s a stable red coin and it’s in one of their early holders I would be very keen to want that!
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Then you should have a problem with the PCGS guarantee, as well (which I linked in an earlier post to this thread). Here’s what it says on that subject:
“ Coins that are environmentally damaged. The PCGS holder, while excellent for long term storage and protection, does not protect coins from harsh environmental conditions. Consequently, the PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins which have been environmentally damaged. For example, if your coins are damaged in a flood or fire, the PCGS Guarantee would not apply to those coins. This also applies to copper coins stored in environmentally risky locations (high humidity, see next paragraph.)
Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion.”
It’s not that I’m unsympathetic, but rather, that some of the posts are complaining about the NGC guarantee, but giving a free pass to PCGS for essentially the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well again, I don’t really have a problem with that. I do understand where they’re coming from. I’m not really singling out NGC. I just noticed that NGC walks away at 10 years and nothing more and that’s just where I have an issue as I am one of many that like vintage holders.
Thankfully, most of my older NGC holders are gold coins, so this shouldn’t be an issue, but I have an early piece of copper in a PCGS holder, although brown, to the best of my knowledge, this thing is still guaranteed?
But if this were in an NGC holder being over 10 years old, they wouldn’t guarantee it at all? I just don’t understand that.
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NGC just guarantees the authenticity? I guess that’s better than nothing. But that’s still a 65, if not better
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Many years ago, Don Willis of PCGS told me that people were making RD Lincoln cents which would turn after several months, and PCGS couldn't tell the difference between these RD Lincolns and unaltered ones. Hence the end of the PCGS color guarantee. I don't know if it's still valid, but initially, if you could show you were the original owner and bought a RD copper before 2010, the guarantee was still good.
As a practical matter, the coppers I have that are in OGHs retain their original color.
Again, after 10 years from the time of encapsulation, in the event of environmental deterioration, NGC would still guarantee the authenticity but not the grade. On the other hand, the PCGS grade portion of their guarantee wouldn’t even provide the 10-year cushion.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here are a couple of the CACG "exclusions" from their guarantee. I did not parse it word for word, but it appears to be similar to PCGS.
Source: https://www.cacgrading.com/legal/gradingpolicy
Indeed, for me, red copper has to be in an older holder to prove stability.
So far, it has worked out well for me.
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