Kingman probably deserves more respect than he gets but he was notoriously unpleasant and all the writers hated him. He was also a guy way before his time in that he bounced around to a lot of teams in a time when that was looked down upon. These days that wouldn't be a problem at all.
If he'd come in the league 10 years later he'd probably be in.
Let's tell it like it is. MLB knew those three were using steroids. We all knew it. But MLB was addicted to the money from the increased popularity of the game with records being broken. And we the fans were addicted to the excitement of it all with increased attendance and viewership.
Do we all know who is using steroids now? 😁
we do not know who is using now. not even close. the users are ALWAYS ahead of the testers. there are new PEDs out there right now that we dont even know about. that there are not even tests for. there are current HOFers who used. no doubt. there are 2 current HOFers who admitted to using Steroids, Piazza and Bagwell. (andro. which is now considered to be a steroid)
Players have been using PED/or straight out cheating since the beginning of sport.
do we really think that guys like Stanton, Judge or Trout are not on gear? come on.
You said we don't know but listed the 3 guys we know. 😄 Just kidding but...yeah maybe we know. Your list does not sound too off to me.
Checked into it and in 1991 they said hey dont do drugs, really, we mean it, dont do 'em. Then in 2003 they tested. Think McGwire had retired prior to that so no opp to fail a test. Sammy winding it down then but could have failed. Then Barry the most notable.
Guess Barry had those grade A 2004 masking agents which I would think have improved dramatically in 20 years like AOL's excellent dial-up internet and those first Nokia cellular phones. Hard to imagine how any of these millionaires fail a drug test. Saw something where recently they did 11,000 drug tests and had 2 fails and they probably injured themselves patting themselves on the back saying they fixed it.
But think you look at a guy like Alvarado a PHI RP who failed a test and that just tells me we have no way of guessing everyone. Whose list was Alvarado on? Think there are the more obvious ones we almost know but who knows if 80% of the league is on it with them. If so, would seem to matter less that they are on it if most are.
Professional players(any sport) have learned not to discuss anything regarding physical enhancement. There’s truth behind the ‘they’re all doing it’ comment. Science has come a long way….
Palmer references Bench in this. Bench has been 100% against Pete getting in this entire time. They didn’t get along as teammates and then Rose’s scandal overshadowed Bench’s induction a bit. Johnny was elected in January 1989 (inducted in July) and the Rose scandal started breaking in March/April 1989. This is discussed in MLB network’s documentary on Bench.
Johnny just seems to be changing course a bit with Pete no longer with us.
@frankhardy said:
I think they both should be in the HOF. I believe I read where they are both eligible in 2028. Guess who else is eligible in 2028? Both Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina. Pujols for sure will be a first ballot and hopefully unanimous HOF'er. Molina should get in quickly, if not first ballot.
The only downside for me is that Rose's induction will overshadow one of the greatest righthanded hitters in history.
i think it is 2027 not 2028 so hopefully if rose goes in it will be not on the year pujols and molina get to in.
I just confirmed...
The vote for Pete Rose is in December of 2027, but if voted in would be inducted in HOF class of 2028 in July ...same as Pujols and Yadier Molina.
And Manny, though great, does not come close to Pujols.
Kingman probably deserves more respect than he gets but he was notoriously unpleasant and all the writers hated him. He was also a guy way before his time in that he bounced around to a lot of teams in a time when that was looked down upon. These days that wouldn't be a problem at all.
If he'd come in the league 10 years later he'd probably be in.
Kingman played 1941 games over 16 seasons and had a tiny tiny WAR of 17.4 - no way in modern times that gets any one in.
Judge and Ohtani had 3/4 of Kingman's flaccid career WAR in just last season alone.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@frankhardy said:
I think they both should be in the HOF. I believe I read where they are both eligible in 2028. Guess who else is eligible in 2028? Both Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina. Pujols for sure will be a first ballot and hopefully unanimous HOF'er. Molina should get in quickly, if not first ballot.
The only downside for me is that Rose's induction will overshadow one of the greatest righthanded hitters in history.
i think it is 2027 not 2028 so hopefully if rose goes in it will be not on the year pujols and molina get to in.
I just confirmed...
The vote for Pete Rose is in December of 2027, but if voted in would be inducted in HOF class of 2028 in July ...same as Pujols and Yadier Molina.
And Manny, though great, does not come close to Pujols.
Its all subjective. There is no truth. Depends on what your focus is. On the list of the greatest career OPS leaders of all-time Manny is 12. Ahead of Mantle, Trout, McGwire and Dimaggio. Pujols is 55. Behind Joey Votto. Not saying that OPS is everything. Dont think Mays and Aaron are super high in that respect compared to mine and others opinion of them.
But still, it comes down to what weight you give to certain accomplishments. Or if you say these stats dont count because of the failed test. Or they get discounted this % in my book. Or can we not say because we dont know how many opponents were also on something and didn't fail a test.
Where I think it all gets messy is the Hall has relied too much on milestones and counting stats when guys were racking up #s to reach milestones and were really not great contributors and maybe dont make the roster without loyalty and name and publicity from the accomplishment happening in that team's uni. You look at a guy like Biggio and so many others and its just hey let me collapse across the finish line to get 3000. He should have been able to hang em up at 2700 and not be considered not worthy of the Hall. Those last 300 hits mean so little. You look at a guy like Damon and he contributed a lot but probably wont get the nod. He may have been able to find a way to creep past 3000 but what is the point of that. It would not have made him so much of a better player in my opinion.
For me, Manny and Pujols I would rank very close together.
Please refrain from using the term Shoeless Joe . In the name of inclusion and to assure equality please address the former star as Footwear Deprived Joe . Thanks for your cooperation in making the world more compassionate place .
“5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
I think it’s important to realize that “integrity, sportsmanship and character” are fully HALF of the criteria for induction.
Whether we are talking about Pete Rose (gambling/underage girls), Barry Bonds (BALCO), Roger Clemens (Mindy McCready, “I think Andy Pettitte misremembered”), Alex Rodriguez (failed steroids, sued MLB/ Yankees), Mark McGwire (steroids, crying on Capitol Hill because he ‘didn’t want to talk about the past”), Manny Ramirez (failed steroid tests, “Manny being Manny” was the career explanation for his poor play outside the batters box), most people want to ignore the negative (and there’s often more for each player, do the homework) and focus on the numbers when numbers are superlative. However, numbers are not even a part of the deal:
“6. Automatic Elections: No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.”
“He’s in so he should be in” has absolutely nothing to do with anything and is also not Hall of Fame criteria.
Lastly, yes, there’s plenty of people who don’t belong in the Hall Of Fame based on the character clause. See: Roberto Alomar. Simply put, the rise of and access to steroids coincided with the rise of the 24 hour news cycle and the internet era and now there is much more information available about these athletes.
Clearly, everyone has their own ideas of what makes a Hall of Fame player and people should advocate for their favorite players; just remember there is actually officially criteria listed criteria for the Hall, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
I’m posting this here as a reminder that this below in quotes is the only criteria for induction, despite what us fans think or espouse.
“5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
I think it’s important to realize that “integrity, sportsmanship and character” are fully HALF of the criteria for induction.
Whether we are talking about Pete Rose (gambling/underage girls), Barry Bonds (BALCO), Roger Clemens (Mindy McCready, “I think Andy Pettitte misremembered”), Alex Rodriguez (failed steroids, sued MLB/ Yankees), Mark McGwire (steroids, crying on Capitol Hill because he ‘didn’t want to talk about the past”), Manny Ramirez (failed steroid tests, “Manny being Manny” was the career explanation for his poor play outside the batters box), most people want to ignore the negative (and there’s often more for each player, do the homework) and focus on the numbers when numbers are superlative. However, numbers are not even a part of the deal:
“6. Automatic Elections: No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.”
“He’s in so he should be in” has absolutely nothing to do with anything and is also not Hall of Fame criteria.
Lastly, yes, there’s plenty of people who don’t belong in the Hall Of Fame based on the character clause. See: Roberto Alomar. Simply put, the rise of and access to steroids coincided with the rise of the 24 hour news cycle and the internet era and now there is much more information available about these athletes.
Clearly, everyone has their own ideas of what makes a Hall of Fame player and people should advocate for their favorite players; just remember there is actually officially criteria listed criteria for the Hall, too.
a huge question mark when it comes to the ¨character¨ clause, does this apply only to their professional/baseball career, or also their off field lives? this is not clear. remember, the last part of the clause:
¨integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
that clause can be read that the integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions are ONLY applied to when the player was active on a team. or in other words, off field stuff does not matter. IE. womanizing, bad business deals, alcoholism, law breaking activities etc.
secondly, there is no metric or guidance on how to apply this ¨clause.¨ The way it is written, it is COMPLETELY a judgement call for each individual voter as each persons moral compass is different.
it is a joke and is not applied evenly across the board.
While taking shots at Rose, McGwire, Manny, AROD, Bonds, Clemens, Alomar, you dont mention Mantle and his heavy drinking that negatively impacted his performance and therefore his team later in his career.
Integrity and character are so subjective its silly to trust a bunch of baseball writers to make that judgement.
A guy is a lousy person and human being if he does something that helps him be a better player and improve his teams chances of winning and helps the fans in the stands enjoy the product they paid money to see. But a guy who takes performance-deteriorating drugs that makes him a worse player, decreases his team's chance of winning and makes the experience less enjoyable for the fans, that guy is a hero and should be celebrated. I personally cant agree with that but again its all subjective.
@UlyssesExtravaganza said:
While taking shots at Rose, McGwire, Manny, AROD, Bonds, Clemens, Alomar, you dont mention Mantle and his heavy drinking that negatively impacted his performance and therefore his team later in his career.
Integrity and character are so subjective its silly to trust a bunch of baseball writers to make that judgement.
A guy is a lousy person and human being if he does something that helps him be a better player and improve his teams chances of winning and helps the fans in the stands enjoy the product they paid money to see. But a guy who takes performance-deteriorating drugs that makes him a worse player, decreases his team's chance of winning and makes the experience less enjoyable for the fans, that guy is a hero and should be celebrated. I personally cant agree with that but again its all subjective.
This discussion is about guys not in the Hall of Fame and each guy I mentioned was already in the thread and the criteria by which one gets in - something people don’t always know.
Mickey Mantle was trash as a person and I have no problem saying it. He, too, was banned from baseball for a time but had already been enshrined - in case anyone forgot that bit, too.
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By the way, saying out loud the things keeping those guys out of the Hall of Fame is not me ‘taking shots’ at them; I’m stating clearly the specific reason(s) why they were not inducted into the Hall of Fame because in every single case these are the absolute statistical beasts of their respective era.
I’m a Yankees fan and we had plenty of steroid guys - Giambi, Sheffield, Alex Rodriguez, Andy Pettitte.
I don’t know why people have such a hard time admitting that their favorite player might not be a good person. Manny and A-Rod both failed tests - how is taking a shot at them to acknowledge that as the reason they didn’t make the Hall of Fame?
And I’m enjoying the discussion and not taking shots at you or your opinion because I’m genuinely interested in this discussion.
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Mickey Mantle once attended a dinner later in life where his favorite player, Stan Musial, was also present. When asked to speak about who was better, he said the following:
"Stan was a better player than me, because he was a better man than me. Because he got everything out of what God gave him, and he doesn't have to live with all the regrets that I live with.”
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
keep in mind, players have been using chemicals to try and get better since almost the beginning.
See Galvin, Pud.
for some, putting in known, admitted cheaters is perfectly fine. (Rogers Hornsby, Gaylord Perry etc.) and by cheaters, I mean they actually broke rules of the game of baseball.
others consider taking chemicals to make ones body physically stronger cheating even though they are playing the game of baseball without breaking any rules.
I have a very strong feeling that fans/sportswriters of the future will look at this time and wonder why? I feel like 50-100 years from now it will be considered a big giant nothingburger.
@craig44 said:
keep in mind, players have been using chemicals to try and get better since almost the beginning.
See Galvin, Pud.
for some, putting in known, admitted cheaters is perfectly fine. (Rogers Hornsby, Gaylord Perry etc.) and by cheaters, I mean they actually broke rules of the game of baseball.
others consider taking chemicals to make ones body physically stronger cheating even though they are playing the game of baseball without breaking any rules.
I have a very strong feeling that fans/sportswriters of the future will look at this time and wonder why? I feel like 50-100 years from now it will be considered a big giant nothingburger.
Well, this thread started with Pete Rose and Joe Jackson and morphed into an ‘all the guys not in’ thread.
I think it’s important to look at each case individually and not lump them all together because each player is unique and so is their candidacy. For the alleged steroid users, there’s a LOT of information available about who did what, why and when - then you have to put all the facts together and try to figure out what really happened. For each player it requires a pretty deep dive but you can usually get to the bottom of what happened.
I’ll also say this:
Of all the guys listed, the player with the greatest chance (as in if I were to wager on it, whom would get in first of the group), I’d go with Roger Clemens. He’s got the cleanest actual record of anyone in the group and is in top 5 of pitchers of my lifetime and a reasonable candidate for the premier pitcher.
And I say this because it’s true, not because I know you’re a huge fan of The Rocket.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I look at McGwire and Sosa and remember when they were chasing the HR record and it was one of the most exciting times in baseball in the last 40 years. The game was in a bad place because of the strike and they pulled people back in and got people interested in baseball again.
I remember that year you could be at the gym or a bar or anywhere and there could be a TV on with a Cubs or Cards game and you and others would just stop and watch the McGwire or Sosa at bat and then get back to whatever.
I dont remember anybody at the time saying this is awful, I hate this. I wish this wasn't happening. It was a rule, dont do these drugs but MLB was happy to not test. Selig did not want to stop this entertainment that made him look like he was doing a good job. So kind of feel like it was a wink wink nudge nudge dont do it thing.
Then Congress and John McCain wanted to end it and that was what changed the game not the Commissioner of MLB. After the fact, McGwire and Sosa were villainized but at the time I dont feel like too many minded they were contributing to the sport and getting people to watch MLB. In that sense I think they made a great contribution to the fans and the game.
Integrity character, can look at it from a ton of different angles. I dont think they are bad guys. Residue and sticky stuff that pitchers used to get a grip, they cracked down on that, kind of similar to steroids and breaking the rules but will all the guys who were caught for that get the same Bonds Clemens McGwire Manny treatment. Probably not.
@UlyssesExtravaganza said:
I look at McGwire and Sosa and remember when they were chasing the HR record and it was one of the most exciting times in baseball in the last 40 years. The game was in a bad place because of the strike and they pulled people back in and got people interested in baseball again.
You mean like how Lance Armstrong overcame cancer and won all those Tour De France titles and was an inspiration to us all, until we found out...
He probably does not realize that the entire Sosa/McGwire home run race was orchestrated by MLB to help generate interest in a sport that had dropped far behind the NFL and NBA in fan interest. It did work...until MLB shot itself in the foot yet again.
Will Clark and Rafael Palmiero were on the same team in college. They entered the pros at the same time. One took steroids and had a Hall of Fame level career and the other didn’t and had an All Star caliber career.
If you asked anyone who was better prior to the chemical enhancements, it was a no brainer.
I believe it is a detriment to have a culture in baseball (or any sport) where players feel they have to take performance enhancing drugs to compete/succeed and to have future baseball players grow up believing that. And there’s little doubt baseball had reached that point. Sure, I was watching the chase with buddies like everyone else and we all marveled at the homers - true - but then we also talked about how roided up all these guys were, also.
Each and every one of these guys - rightly or wrongly - brought a LOT of negative attention to their sport. That’s not all that easy to ignore for many people who have a vote on such matters.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Here are a few things for the board. Take a look at Ohtani's 2017 card and his 2025 card. Or Soto's 2017 card and his 2025 card. See what you notice about both of them.
Comments
More respect =/= HOF worthy, though.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
You said we don't know but listed the 3 guys we know. 😄 Just kidding but...yeah maybe we know. Your list does not sound too off to me.
Checked into it and in 1991 they said hey dont do drugs, really, we mean it, dont do 'em. Then in 2003 they tested. Think McGwire had retired prior to that so no opp to fail a test. Sammy winding it down then but could have failed. Then Barry the most notable.
Guess Barry had those grade A 2004 masking agents which I would think have improved dramatically in 20 years like AOL's excellent dial-up internet and those first Nokia cellular phones. Hard to imagine how any of these millionaires fail a drug test. Saw something where recently they did 11,000 drug tests and had 2 fails and they probably injured themselves patting themselves on the back saying they fixed it.
But think you look at a guy like Alvarado a PHI RP who failed a test and that just tells me we have no way of guessing everyone. Whose list was Alvarado on? Think there are the more obvious ones we almost know but who knows if 80% of the league is on it with them. If so, would seem to matter less that they are on it if most are.
Professional players(any sport) have learned not to discuss anything regarding physical enhancement. There’s truth behind the ‘they’re all doing it’ comment. Science has come a long way….
That OPC card sounds awesome.
Kingman actually had a great but VERY short Yankee career: 8 games, 4 HR, 2 doubles and a 1.167 OPS.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6356249/2025/05/14/pete-rose-hall-of-famers-reactions/
Palmer references Bench in this. Bench has been 100% against Pete getting in this entire time. They didn’t get along as teammates and then Rose’s scandal overshadowed Bench’s induction a bit. Johnny was elected in January 1989 (inducted in July) and the Rose scandal started breaking in March/April 1989. This is discussed in MLB network’s documentary on Bench.
Johnny just seems to be changing course a bit with Pete no longer with us.
I just confirmed...
The vote for Pete Rose is in December of 2027, but if voted in would be inducted in HOF class of 2028 in July ...same as Pujols and Yadier Molina.
And Manny, though great, does not come close to Pujols.
Shane
pujols was better, but manny was a stud. 555 hr's and finished with a .312 batting avg.
ruth
foxx
cabrera
aaron
ott
mays
frank t
ted w
i may have missed one but i think this is it. so only 9 players are ever accomplished that. pretty darn good.
Kingman played 1941 games over 16 seasons and had a tiny tiny WAR of 17.4 - no way in modern times that gets any one in.
Judge and Ohtani had 3/4 of Kingman's flaccid career WAR in just last season alone.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Its all subjective. There is no truth. Depends on what your focus is. On the list of the greatest career OPS leaders of all-time Manny is 12. Ahead of Mantle, Trout, McGwire and Dimaggio. Pujols is 55. Behind Joey Votto. Not saying that OPS is everything. Dont think Mays and Aaron are super high in that respect compared to mine and others opinion of them.
But still, it comes down to what weight you give to certain accomplishments. Or if you say these stats dont count because of the failed test. Or they get discounted this % in my book. Or can we not say because we dont know how many opponents were also on something and didn't fail a test.
Where I think it all gets messy is the Hall has relied too much on milestones and counting stats when guys were racking up #s to reach milestones and were really not great contributors and maybe dont make the roster without loyalty and name and publicity from the accomplishment happening in that team's uni. You look at a guy like Biggio and so many others and its just hey let me collapse across the finish line to get 3000. He should have been able to hang em up at 2700 and not be considered not worthy of the Hall. Those last 300 hits mean so little. You look at a guy like Damon and he contributed a lot but probably wont get the nod. He may have been able to find a way to creep past 3000 but what is the point of that. It would not have made him so much of a better player in my opinion.
For me, Manny and Pujols I would rank very close together.
Sadly greatness can be squandered.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Oh, look what Manfred said: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mlb/breaking-news/article/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-concedes-president-trump-partially-influenced-decision-to-reinstate-pete-rose-014024167.html
Please refrain from using the term Shoeless Joe . In the name of inclusion and to assure equality please address the former star as Footwear Deprived Joe . Thanks for your cooperation in making the world more compassionate place .
I’m posting this here as a reminder that this below in quotes is the only criteria for induction, despite what us fans think or espouse.
https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame/election-rules/bbwaa-rules
“5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
I think it’s important to realize that “integrity, sportsmanship and character” are fully HALF of the criteria for induction.
Whether we are talking about Pete Rose (gambling/underage girls), Barry Bonds (BALCO), Roger Clemens (Mindy McCready, “I think Andy Pettitte misremembered”), Alex Rodriguez (failed steroids, sued MLB/ Yankees), Mark McGwire (steroids, crying on Capitol Hill because he ‘didn’t want to talk about the past”), Manny Ramirez (failed steroid tests, “Manny being Manny” was the career explanation for his poor play outside the batters box), most people want to ignore the negative (and there’s often more for each player, do the homework) and focus on the numbers when numbers are superlative. However, numbers are not even a part of the deal:
“6. Automatic Elections: No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.”
“He’s in so he should be in” has absolutely nothing to do with anything and is also not Hall of Fame criteria.
Lastly, yes, there’s plenty of people who don’t belong in the Hall Of Fame based on the character clause. See: Roberto Alomar. Simply put, the rise of and access to steroids coincided with the rise of the 24 hour news cycle and the internet era and now there is much more information available about these athletes.
Clearly, everyone has their own ideas of what makes a Hall of Fame player and people should advocate for their favorite players; just remember there is actually officially criteria listed criteria for the Hall, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
a huge question mark when it comes to the ¨character¨ clause, does this apply only to their professional/baseball career, or also their off field lives? this is not clear. remember, the last part of the clause:
¨integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
that clause can be read that the integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions are ONLY applied to when the player was active on a team. or in other words, off field stuff does not matter. IE. womanizing, bad business deals, alcoholism, law breaking activities etc.
secondly, there is no metric or guidance on how to apply this ¨clause.¨ The way it is written, it is COMPLETELY a judgement call for each individual voter as each persons moral compass is different.
it is a joke and is not applied evenly across the board.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
While taking shots at Rose, McGwire, Manny, AROD, Bonds, Clemens, Alomar, you dont mention Mantle and his heavy drinking that negatively impacted his performance and therefore his team later in his career.
Integrity and character are so subjective its silly to trust a bunch of baseball writers to make that judgement.
A guy is a lousy person and human being if he does something that helps him be a better player and improve his teams chances of winning and helps the fans in the stands enjoy the product they paid money to see. But a guy who takes performance-deteriorating drugs that makes him a worse player, decreases his team's chance of winning and makes the experience less enjoyable for the fans, that guy is a hero and should be celebrated. I personally cant agree with that but again its all subjective.
This discussion is about guys not in the Hall of Fame and each guy I mentioned was already in the thread and the criteria by which one gets in - something people don’t always know.
Mickey Mantle was trash as a person and I have no problem saying it. He, too, was banned from baseball for a time but had already been enshrined - in case anyone forgot that bit, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
@UlyssesExtravaganza
By the way, saying out loud the things keeping those guys out of the Hall of Fame is not me ‘taking shots’ at them; I’m stating clearly the specific reason(s) why they were not inducted into the Hall of Fame because in every single case these are the absolute statistical beasts of their respective era.
I’m a Yankees fan and we had plenty of steroid guys - Giambi, Sheffield, Alex Rodriguez, Andy Pettitte.
I don’t know why people have such a hard time admitting that their favorite player might not be a good person. Manny and A-Rod both failed tests - how is taking a shot at them to acknowledge that as the reason they didn’t make the Hall of Fame?
And I’m enjoying the discussion and not taking shots at you or your opinion because I’m genuinely interested in this discussion.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I think they call that dude shoeless joe because that dude had shoes, he was just lying.
Mickey Mantle once attended a dinner later in life where his favorite player, Stan Musial, was also present. When asked to speak about who was better, he said the following:
"Stan was a better player than me, because he was a better man than me. Because he got everything out of what God gave him, and he doesn't have to live with all the regrets that I live with.”
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
keep in mind, players have been using chemicals to try and get better since almost the beginning.
See Galvin, Pud.
for some, putting in known, admitted cheaters is perfectly fine. (Rogers Hornsby, Gaylord Perry etc.) and by cheaters, I mean they actually broke rules of the game of baseball.
others consider taking chemicals to make ones body physically stronger cheating even though they are playing the game of baseball without breaking any rules.
I have a very strong feeling that fans/sportswriters of the future will look at this time and wonder why? I feel like 50-100 years from now it will be considered a big giant nothingburger.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Well, this thread started with Pete Rose and Joe Jackson and morphed into an ‘all the guys not in’ thread.
I think it’s important to look at each case individually and not lump them all together because each player is unique and so is their candidacy. For the alleged steroid users, there’s a LOT of information available about who did what, why and when - then you have to put all the facts together and try to figure out what really happened. For each player it requires a pretty deep dive but you can usually get to the bottom of what happened.
I’ll also say this:
Of all the guys listed, the player with the greatest chance (as in if I were to wager on it, whom would get in first of the group), I’d go with Roger Clemens. He’s got the cleanest actual record of anyone in the group and is in top 5 of pitchers of my lifetime and a reasonable candidate for the premier pitcher.
And I say this because it’s true, not because I know you’re a huge fan of The Rocket.
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I look at McGwire and Sosa and remember when they were chasing the HR record and it was one of the most exciting times in baseball in the last 40 years. The game was in a bad place because of the strike and they pulled people back in and got people interested in baseball again.
I remember that year you could be at the gym or a bar or anywhere and there could be a TV on with a Cubs or Cards game and you and others would just stop and watch the McGwire or Sosa at bat and then get back to whatever.
I dont remember anybody at the time saying this is awful, I hate this. I wish this wasn't happening. It was a rule, dont do these drugs but MLB was happy to not test. Selig did not want to stop this entertainment that made him look like he was doing a good job. So kind of feel like it was a wink wink nudge nudge dont do it thing.
Then Congress and John McCain wanted to end it and that was what changed the game not the Commissioner of MLB. After the fact, McGwire and Sosa were villainized but at the time I dont feel like too many minded they were contributing to the sport and getting people to watch MLB. In that sense I think they made a great contribution to the fans and the game.
Integrity character, can look at it from a ton of different angles. I dont think they are bad guys. Residue and sticky stuff that pitchers used to get a grip, they cracked down on that, kind of similar to steroids and breaking the rules but will all the guys who were caught for that get the same Bonds Clemens McGwire Manny treatment. Probably not.
U -- I agree nice post
You mean like how Lance Armstrong overcame cancer and won all those Tour De France titles and was an inspiration to us all, until we found out...
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
He probably does not realize that the entire Sosa/McGwire home run race was orchestrated by MLB to help generate interest in a sport that had dropped far behind the NFL and NBA in fan interest. It did work...until MLB shot itself in the foot yet again.
Will Clark and Rafael Palmiero were on the same team in college. They entered the pros at the same time. One took steroids and had a Hall of Fame level career and the other didn’t and had an All Star caliber career.
If you asked anyone who was better prior to the chemical enhancements, it was a no brainer.
I believe it is a detriment to have a culture in baseball (or any sport) where players feel they have to take performance enhancing drugs to compete/succeed and to have future baseball players grow up believing that. And there’s little doubt baseball had reached that point. Sure, I was watching the chase with buddies like everyone else and we all marveled at the homers - true - but then we also talked about how roided up all these guys were, also.
Each and every one of these guys - rightly or wrongly - brought a LOT of negative attention to their sport. That’s not all that easy to ignore for many people who have a vote on such matters.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Here are a few things for the board. Take a look at Ohtani's 2017 card and his 2025 card. Or Soto's 2017 card and his 2025 card. See what you notice about both of them.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zAfC1Nntjy8?feature=share
Ted Williams on Shoeless Joe Jackson NOT in the HOF