@breakdown said:
The craziest thing to me about this thread is somebody out there is paying over 13K for a raw Mercury dime.
If that person does that, it’s their business. You can’t save the world if the world does not listen.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Looks cleaned, and has questionable rims to me. Just seems too good if you know what I mean.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
I got a chuckle out of what the poster ATS said in one of the chats: " "If it was genuine, it would not be sold raw". Balonga, I buy raw coins all the time that are rare and scarce. That philosophy is bunk."
I missed how the raw coin got slabbed and over to GC. I would have originally said there is no way these are the same coin. But in comparing them, the 6:00 rim marks make a compelling case they might be. If they are the same coin, I feel like the OP pictures have been photoshopped. Crazy.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
@JeffersonFrog said:
I missed how the raw coin got slabbed and over to GC. I would have originally said there is no way these are the same coin. But in comparing them, the 6:00 rim marks make a compelling case they might be. If they are the same coin, I feel like the OP pictures have been photoshopped. Crazy.
You have the order wrong. The GC sale was a couple weeks before the eBay close. Some sellers buy details coins, crack them out, fix them up, edit new raw coin pics, bid them up and repeat (not sure about this one though).
Look at the mark above the Y of LIBERTY on the rim edge.
@jedm said:
I got a chuckle out of what the poster ATS said in one of the chats: " "If it was genuine, it would not be sold raw". Balonga, I buy raw coins all the time that are rare and scarce. That philosophy is bunk."
Yeah, Balonga!
I totally agree. But, you know what to look for. Most people buy on what seems to be a bargain that they can make a lot of money on, without knowledge of the coin. An awful lot of people think that if others bid a huge amount of money on something that it must be genuine.
@breakdown said:
The craziest thing to me about this thread is somebody out there is paying over 13K for a raw Mercury dime.
Total with bp was just over $10,000 on GC. Fair price at that time for a coin that is probably Details ?
I guess that’s one way to look at it. Another is that one thing propping up that price for a details coin is a buyer who plans to crack it out, take over exposed photos and flip it raw as a “Gem BU” on EBay.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@braddick said:
Not saying it is this coin, I remember reading years ago about how a coin such as this would be drilled on the side edge and a tool used to push/punch up the metal. The tool would have the shape of the "D" mintmark on the tip of it. Again, not being disparaging of this coin- but those rims kind of remind me of reading about this and how interesting that alteration is.
The procedure you are talking about it called Embossing. It is very deceptive and was used mostly on Buffalo Nickels.
A check of the edge on a suspected coin will show tooling marks where the hole was drilled.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
If this were my coin and I took it to a show to see how many $ I could get for it, the first thing that would be pointed out to me would be the rim issues. Not that amazing a coin. A straight grade by TPG is just wrong if that were to happen with this piece.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Looks like NGC deleted the other chat in the forum, probably due to harassing language by the OP. @MFeld, that guy was sending some real personal attacks your way. Sorry you had to deal with that clown.
Either way, the "Pros" have said this is altered and cleaned and will always be a problem coin. Hope the buyer can return this once inspected.
@redraider said:
Looks like NGC deleted the other chat in the forum, probably due to harassing language by the OP. @MFeld, that guy was sending some real personal attacks your way. Sorry you had to deal with that clown.
Either way, the "Pros" have said this is altered and cleaned and will always be a problem coin. Hope the buyer can return this once inspected.
Thank you. That poster and I don't know each other so I didn't take the attacks personally,
Hopefully the buyer of the coin was aware of the risk he was taking.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@redraider said:
Looks like NGC deleted the other chat in the forum, probably due to harassing language by the OP. @MFeld, that guy was sending some real personal attacks your way. Sorry you had to deal with that clown.
Either way, the "Pros" have said this is altered and cleaned and will always be a problem coin. Hope the buyer can return this once inspected.
Thank you. That poster and I don't know each other so I didn't take the attacks personally,
Hopefully the buyer of the coin was aware of the risk he was taking.
Many people in personal or online have yet to learn that lesson Mark.
Once incorporated in life, it goes much smoother.
@braddick said:
Not saying it is this coin, I remember reading years ago about how a coin such as this would be drilled on the side edge and a tool used to push/punch up the metal. The tool would have the shape of the "D" mintmark on the tip of it. Again, not being disparaging of this coin- but those rims kind of remind me of reading about this and how interesting that alteration is.
I have only heard of the added embossed mintmark alteration being performed on buffalo nickels.
I have seen it on Morgan Dollars.
I doubt it could be done on a dime.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@redraider said:
Looks like NGC deleted the other chat in the forum, probably due to harassing language by the OP. @MFeld, that guy was sending some real personal attacks your way. Sorry you had to deal with that clown.
Either way, the "Pros" have said this is altered and cleaned and will always be a problem coin. Hope the buyer can return this once inspected.
Thank you. That poster and I don't know each other so I didn't take the attacks personally,
Hopefully the buyer of the coin was aware of the risk he was taking.
The younger generation, in general, do not know the socially correct way to interact with others - especially during a disagreement. You can be forceful and stand up for your beliefs in a respectful manner. Same goes for some of the older folks.
@JeffersonFrog said:
I missed how the raw coin got slabbed and over to GC. I would have originally said there is no way these are the same coin. But in comparing them, the 6:00 rim marks make a compelling case they might be. If they are the same coin, I feel like the OP pictures have been photoshopped. Crazy.
This coin is like that. The obverse looks like a dark MS64BR copper coin until the fields change to a light amber-rose color with direct lighting (not shown). It's like a toned proof coin that way, i.e., they'll have russet toning until the colors pop under direct lighting. The reverse is untoned except for faint rose toning near the rim.
From the picture it looks off to me, muted luster like it was polished. A coin like that I have to see in my hand with a good light source for a better determination..
Possibly. although I don't much care about the looks of the reverse rim, I wouldn't body bag the coin for it. I would downgrade it to MS 64 FB because of it if I was grading it.
That's a big money coin with the huge possibility of a rather big money loss if it's raw.
I wouldn't touch it unless it was graded. To difficult to guess from those images for me anyway.
With that said I couldn't afford it so I have nothing to worry about.
Good thread though.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
I haven't looked at the other threads yet, but this coin could be "Exhibit A" as to why I wouldn't even consider buying such a coin not graded by NGC or PCGS.
If genuine and not cleaned, it would be way too expensive to guess the grade and feel confident that it is, in fact, genuine, and has not been improperly cleaned.
So, since it’s in an NGC holder, does anyone know the grade?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
So, since it’s in an NGC holder, does anyone know the grade?
At the last ebay auction the coin sold raw. If we assume that the two auctions are the same coin, then when it sold on GC (prior to the most recent ebay auction) it was in an NGC UNC details AT holder.
@breakdown said:
The craziest thing to me about this thread is somebody out there is paying over 13K for a raw Mercury dime.
Total with bp was just over $10,000 on GC. Fair price at that time for a coin that is probably Details ?
I guess that’s one way to look at it. Another is that one thing propping up that price for a details coin is a buyer who plans to crack it out, take over exposed photos and flip it raw as a “Gem BU” on EBay.
To be fair what is the status of an AT coin that has since (Semi?) successfully been dipped? Its not like every coin that ever made a Details holders is doomed to never make a straight graded one. Not a defense of the practice, just injecting they degrees of grey
@breakdown said:
The craziest thing to me about this thread is somebody out there is paying over 13K for a raw Mercury dime.
Total with bp was just over $10,000 on GC. Fair price at that time for a coin that is probably Details ?
I guess that’s one way to look at it. Another is that one thing propping up that price for a details coin is a buyer who plans to crack it out, take over exposed photos and flip it raw as a “Gem BU” on EBay.
To be fair what is the status of an AT coin that has since (Semi?) successfully been dipped? Its not like every coin that ever made a Details holders is doomed to never make a straight graded one. Not a defense of the practice, just injecting they degrees of grey
That’s true, of course. However, grading labels don’t always list all of the reasons that a coin has received a detail-grade. For example, many coins are AT’d in order to hide evidence of cleaning, tooling, etc. So it wouldn’t be a surprise to see a coin labeled AT get dipped and resubmitted, then receive a detail-grade for cleaning. On the other hand (though certainly not unheard of) it would be a surprise for the coin to receive a straight grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@breakdown said:
The craziest thing to me about this thread is somebody out there is paying over 13K for a raw Mercury dime.
Total with bp was just over $10,000 on GC. Fair price at that time for a coin that is probably Details ?
I guess that’s one way to look at it. Another is that one thing propping up that price for a details coin is a buyer who plans to crack it out, take over exposed photos and flip it raw as a “Gem BU” on EBay.
To be fair what is the status of an AT coin that has since (Semi?) successfully been dipped? Its not like every coin that ever made a Details holders is doomed to never make a straight graded one. Not a defense of the practice, just injecting they degrees of grey
That’s true, of course. However, grading labels don’t always list all of the reasons that a coin has received a detail-grade. For example, many coins are AT’d in order to hide evidence of cleaning, tooling, etc. So it wouldn’t be a surprise to see a coin labeled AT get dipped and resubmitted, then receive a detail-grade for cleaning. On the other hand (though certainly not unheard of) it would be a surprise for the coin to receive a straight grade.
Of course I agree but esp when the AT is a mega coin such as the one posted assuming that the two are the same. I've personally seen more light/cleaned coins that are darkened make straight holders than dark/AT get lightened and then make graded holders. With that said the sheer number of lighted coins in holders is antithetical to my observations so maybe I have only observed lost causes.
@BillJones said:
So, since it’s in an NGC holder, does anyone know the grade?
At the last ebay auction the coin sold raw. If we assume that the two auctions are the same coin, then when it sold on GC (prior to the most recent ebay auction) it was in an NGC UNC details AT holder.
If that’s what it is, it’s a shame. The strike on the coin in the OP is incredible. Some fool ruined a potentially great coin.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I'm not so sure this is a match. The GC photos show some obvious strike doubling in the rev letters of dime which I do not see in the ebay auction photos. There also appears to be a small scratch or line next to one of the leaves just right of the U of united. Admittedly knowing that the ebay seller manipulates his photos those may be there but not visible in the ebay photos.
I made sure to say it “appears as if the coin has been identified” just in case. But while I don’t have the images pulled up at the moment, it looked as if there were some distinctive matching reverse rim issues.
No offense to Ian, but seriously a coin in that price range without a Great Photo? 🤡
I'm not so sure this is a match. The GC photos show some obvious strike doubling in the rev letters of dime which I do not see in the ebay auction photos. There also appears to be a small scratch or line next to one of the leaves just right of the U of united. Admittedly knowing that the ebay seller manipulates his photos those may be there but not visible in the ebay photos.
I made sure to say it “appears as if the coin has been identified” just in case. But while I don’t have the images pulled up at the moment, it looked as if there were some distinctive matching reverse rim issues.
No offense to Ian, but seriously a coin in that price range without a Great Photo? 🤡
Comments
If that person does that, it’s their business. You can’t save the world if the world does not listen.
Definitely looks polished to me.
My YouTube Channel
Looks cleaned, and has questionable rims to me. Just seems too good if you know what I mean.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
I got a chuckle out of what the poster ATS said in one of the chats: " "If it was genuine, it would not be sold raw". Balonga, I buy raw coins all the time that are rare and scarce. That philosophy is bunk."
Yeah, Balonga!
I missed how the raw coin got slabbed and over to GC. I would have originally said there is no way these are the same coin. But in comparing them, the 6:00 rim marks make a compelling case they might be. If they are the same coin, I feel like the OP pictures have been photoshopped. Crazy.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
I think it's the same coin, just that one pic is depicting her in real life and the other is a "Glamour Shot" for sure!
AU details
They probably think it is an MS67FB and it is worth it when they get it graded. It is really a crime.
I didn't read the other thread yet. Assuming it straight graded then my guess is MS66FB.
You have the order wrong. The GC sale was a couple weeks before the eBay close. Some sellers buy details coins, crack them out, fix them up, edit new raw coin pics, bid them up and repeat (not sure about this one though).
Look at the mark above the Y of LIBERTY on the rim edge.
Total with bp was just over $10,000 on GC. Fair price at that time for a coin that is probably Details ?
I totally agree. But, you know what to look for. Most people buy on what seems to be a bargain that they can make a lot of money on, without knowledge of the coin. An awful lot of people think that if others bid a huge amount of money on something that it must be genuine.
I guess that’s one way to look at it. Another is that one thing propping up that price for a details coin is a buyer who plans to crack it out, take over exposed photos and flip it raw as a “Gem BU” on EBay.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I would not assign a grade based on the image.
The procedure you are talking about it called Embossing. It is very deceptive and was used mostly on Buffalo Nickels.
A check of the edge on a suspected coin will show tooling marks where the hole was drilled.
Pete
If this were my coin and I took it to a show to see how many $ I could get for it, the first thing that would be pointed out to me would be the rim issues. Not that amazing a coin. A straight grade by TPG is just wrong if that were to happen with this piece.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Looks like NGC deleted the other chat in the forum, probably due to harassing language by the OP. @MFeld, that guy was sending some real personal attacks your way. Sorry you had to deal with that clown.
Either way, the "Pros" have said this is altered and cleaned and will always be a problem coin. Hope the buyer can return this once inspected.
Thank you. That poster and I don't know each other so I didn't take the attacks personally,
Hopefully the buyer of the coin was aware of the risk he was taking.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Many people in personal or online have yet to learn that lesson Mark.
Once incorporated in life, it goes much smoother.
peacockcoins
I have seen it on Morgan Dollars.
I doubt it could be done on a dime.
The younger generation, in general, do not know the socially correct way to interact with others - especially during a disagreement. You can be forceful and stand up for your beliefs in a respectful manner. Same goes for some of the older folks.
This coin is like that. The obverse looks like a dark MS64BR copper coin until the fields change to a light amber-rose color with direct lighting (not shown). It's like a toned proof coin that way, i.e., they'll have russet toning until the colors pop under direct lighting. The reverse is untoned except for faint rose toning near the rim.
From the picture it looks off to me, muted luster like it was polished. A coin like that I have to see in my hand with a good light source for a better determination..
@billjones, we are the "world"!!
Possibly. although I don't much care about the looks of the reverse rim, I wouldn't body bag the coin for it. I would downgrade it to MS 64 FB because of it if I was grading it.
The grace that I need to learn here,
and I was hoping that they had firehosed him.
AU details Cleaned, Damaged rims
That's a big money coin with the huge possibility of a rather big money loss if it's raw.
I wouldn't touch it unless it was graded. To difficult to guess from those images for me anyway.
With that said I couldn't afford it so I have nothing to worry about.
Good thread though.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
MS details, cleaned and artificially colored.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I haven't looked at the other threads yet, but this coin could be "Exhibit A" as to why I wouldn't even consider buying such a coin not graded by NGC or PCGS.
If genuine and not cleaned, it would be way too expensive to guess the grade and feel confident that it is, in fact, genuine, and has not been improperly cleaned.
I don't like the color....
So, since it’s in an NGC holder, does anyone know the grade?
At the last ebay auction the coin sold raw. If we assume that the two auctions are the same coin, then when it sold on GC (prior to the most recent ebay auction) it was in an NGC UNC details AT holder.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
To be fair what is the status of an AT coin that has since (Semi?) successfully been dipped? Its not like every coin that ever made a Details holders is doomed to never make a straight graded one. Not a defense of the practice, just injecting they degrees of grey
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
That’s true, of course. However, grading labels don’t always list all of the reasons that a coin has received a detail-grade. For example, many coins are AT’d in order to hide evidence of cleaning, tooling, etc. So it wouldn’t be a surprise to see a coin labeled AT get dipped and resubmitted, then receive a detail-grade for cleaning. On the other hand (though certainly not unheard of) it would be a surprise for the coin to receive a straight grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Of course I agree but esp when the AT is a mega coin such as the one posted assuming that the two are the same. I've personally seen more light/cleaned coins that are darkened make straight holders than dark/AT get lightened and then make graded holders. With that said the sheer number of lighted coins in holders is antithetical to my observations so maybe I have only observed lost causes.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
If that’s what it is, it’s a shame. The strike on the coin in the OP is incredible. Some fool ruined a potentially great coin.
No offense to Ian, but seriously a coin in that price range without a Great Photo? 🤡
Lighting could be playing tricks. But it looks like AU-58/MS-60 details but either severely dipped or chemically treated, or polished.
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
problem coin