Options
Grading companies and attributions question
jesbroken
Posts: 10,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do any of the grading companies offer die state along with attributions? Probably not but curious if so.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
1
Comments
Have never seen more specific than Overton die state attributions ("a" and "b" suffixes). But they will not do the 119.4 type states.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
I can't think of a service that mentions actual die state but would be all for it. In the past i have owned coins that were (in between) specific die states. Say half the cracks necessary for the jump in designation from 104 to 104A etc.
I suppose they could put Early, Mid or Late Die state or give some sort of reference point to what interval they place the coin at. James
I've done this for some coins, but not many. Most notably, the 1888-O Scarface $1, which has 12 stages cataloged at a finer level of detail than the VAM catalog. The problem with doing this is not only the extra work involved to catalog and identify the die stages, but also the introduction of gray areas into attributions.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
John,
I would only think this would be needed for special needs for certain coins. I know I would be willing to pay an additional fee to have a specific coin attributed then list die state as an additional step. I wouldn't want it for all attibutions, but select ones, I would. Shouldn't bother anyone not interested as it would not affect their needs, only those requesting the service. I think it would be a tremendous addition to the smaller coins, such as half dimes and dimes and even half cents. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Good to know. If someone wanted this on coins sent to me, they'd have to check first to see if I have the necessary reference materials that have that information or let me borrow their book if they have it. Some of this material is hard to find, some not so much. The die stage catalog would also have to be accepted by collectors (not just the author) in that specialty as being authoritative.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Is there universal agreement on die state definitions? For Draped Bust LCs, Breen (shudder) is regarded as the authority but there are issues with some of his definitions - like some don’t actually exist.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Perfectly put! As a father and grandfather, I have the same reaction to the name.
@jesbroken You've asked an interesting question here. I don't know of any TPGs that document die state, and frankly, I'm not sure I'd want them to. As it stands, I catch slabbed coins that have misattributed varieties pretty often; I imagine that die states would be just another area to cause confusion. Not to mention, new discoveries (even on 200-year-old coins!) are always being made. Through no fault of the graders, die states would fall out of accuracy. "I'd rather be roughly right than precisely wrong."
There are individuals and orgs who do document die states - but they also acknowledge that things are evolving. I consult Steve Herrman on die state questions. Steve and the Bust Half Nut Club have really tackled bust halves: https://davidkahnrarecoins.com/product/die-state-progressions-of-capped-bust-half-dollar-die-varieties-by-bhnc/
Jim, with our capped bust half dime sets, there's a history of authors tentatively defining die states. Valentine, in "The United States Half Dimes," 1931, uses letters. For example, 1831 V1 is described, then V1A is defined as, "Same as No. 1, but the upper and lower sections of the second S in STATES are defective." The die marriages were defined with V (Valentine) numbers, so "V1" was a particular pairing of an obverse and a reverse.
Then Jules Reiver's 1984 monograph, "Variety Identification Manual for US Half Dimes 1794-1837," defined states for half dimes (see my photo of 1831 below). Reiver kept the V naming.
But Logan and McCloskey (I think, wisely) avoided the assignment of letters for states. They define states generally (on page 41) as "VEDS, EDS, IDS, LDS, and VLDS." The wonderful (IMHO) thing about the capped bust half dimes is that Logan and McCloskey documented the remarriages of dies - which not only convey the die state progression for a given die pair, but the relationship of those obverse or reverse dies to other marriages, often in other dates. They also supplanted the V (Valentine) naming with the LM naming. Us youngsters to the series (hah) have to look up V numbers since we learned on the LM nomenclature.
I
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
This brings up another subtle, often confusing, difference in terminology -- die state vs. die stage. Die state specifies how long the die has been in use based mostly on observed die wear. It can also be different for each die (e.g., VEDS obverse paired with LDS reverse). Die stage is based on differences in observable features. The four stages of 1831 V1 show features seen on the die. While die state and die stage often track each other and they're always ordered the same, it's entirely possible that 1831 V1a is a LDS reverse or 1831 V1d is an EDS obverse, as die stage features can happen nearly all at once early or late in a die's life. (Note: I'm using that example purely to illustrate the terminology, not to reflect the reality of the progression of the 1831 V1 die marriage.)
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Ok, I withdraw the idea. Obviously, did not think the results completely through. Perhaps, it would be impossible for anyone to put their name to it without severely risking their reps due to the changing requirements due to natural progression of new findings. Was just an idea. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Day late and a dollar short...
@TPRing, that's a buncha words on that label! What does "DISC PC" mean?
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
i am not the poster but i think it is suppose to mean discovery piece. James
Correct.
Not my coin, I found this image on LincolnCentForum and happened to remember this question being asked.
I do find it a bit ridiculous to identify this reverse, but I imagine it makes ANACS a bit more profit so it is their thing.
Ah, makes sense. Here's the post with more details:
https://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/forum/lincoln-hunters/variety-attributions/variety-examples/4537-1972-1c-rev-die-prev-paired-with-wddo-004-stage-e-discovery-piece
So, @jesbroken, it would appear that ANACS might be amenable to die state. If they can find room on their label. :-)
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
The submitter would have had that information when submitted, since it's a discovery piece, so ANACS's fee would have been for variety verification. Had the coin been submitted without attribution, the fee would have been higher (variety research) and the coin would have come back unattributed as not being a match for any known DDO, perhaps with a note about the master obverse die being doubled. Only someone who is closely studying 1972 doubled dies and looking for stuff like this would notice the reverse die being from a previous DDO die marriage.
Attributors don't have all information about all series, so if it's something you're specializing in that's super esoteric, supporting documentation can be helpful or necessary. Contacting customer service ahead of time may help in determining what documentation should be sent.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
ANACS variety work is the most extensive of any grading service overall. Our two numismatists have over 85 years combined grading service experience and our library of over 2000 volumes and consultants in nearly every field are hard to beat. J.P.
I do like the curve-top design of the cases, it much better than the others' holders. Just not thrilled with the yellow label.
What color would you suggest?
Gold was picked to stand out from the others which I would say has worked. Color is a personal preference, and yes many have said they do not prefer the yellow/gold. When you believe you have a better product, why try to look like everyone else?
Look a little deeper to see ANACS has the best authentication, attribution, lowest buybacks, and widest variety of coins certified. All this with a 5 person grading staff and a pair of senior numismatists with more grading service experience than anyone. I feel that very few people realize who is grading their coins today, So many experienced old heads are replaced with younger grading teams that are overseen by fewer experienced quality control goalies.
It is considered good management to hire cheaper graders and live off your reputation.
I will be the first to admit that AMOS press/ Whitman ANACS got off course in the 1990-2008
period. Still had great attribution, variety record, but grading loosened compared to others. The Gold holders 2008 to date were under the direct supervision of myself and/or Michael Fahey.
Regaining trust after tarnishing a grading reputation takes years of consistent hard work. Especially against professional marketing teams and national marketing campaigns. Our margins were too thin to put up a fight and turn the tide. So were are #3, we try harder, keep cost/fees low, and cater to our collector base. Let the corporate machines, quick buckers and short term investment types reap what they sow.
Today, my opinion is that today's coins are as conservative as our host and is a much better product than the rest of field. I may be an optimist, but I think eventually I think the collector
will realize the value. The guys that are just in it for the money, +pushers, cool-aid drinkers, promoters., barkers, guru's, T.V. evangelists will eventually fade. I wear the gold label as a badge of honor. By the way, I have always held the PCGS product in high regard and consider
it the most consistent firm in the last thirty eight years. I think the Rick Montgomery hiring in 1987 was a great move. letting him move on to lead NGC in 2002, not so much.
All the above is my personal take and my own opinions. J.P. Martin
Color doesn't mean anything to me, although zebra stripe probably wouldn't go well. All holders seem to have issues with the buying public. I personally would pay more for the old ANACS SWH(soapbox/bar holder) if I could request it. It was my all time favorite. I also think ANACS is doing a great job, as is their competitors. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Maybe it is not so much the color as I think my "gripe" is that the label seems a tad barren with just the ANACS insignia [and coin info] on it. Maybe a bar code and serial number would help to give it that extra "it factor".
I do like those smaller [as was mentioned] soap bar/box holders.
I have suggested bolder black type to help fill in the blank space. It would also
make i easier to see for the older eyes, Anyone agree? J.P.
If you fill in the blank space, where would you put all the stickers?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Partially cover the date and grade, where else?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Low blow
J.P., I want to start by saying that I really appreciate it when folks like you ask for input from the community. That kind of engagement builds relationships, and relationships are a cornerstone of this hobby for me.
So, here's a bit of slab feedback, fwiw: I like anything that helps these old eyes! I'm a half dime guy and that's already challenging enough (I rely on high res digital photography and a quality loupe for a great deal of my work!)
I'd also say: I would like the serial number to be on the front of the slab, not the back. (In my ideal, three seller photos would convey the key information to me: a full shot of the front of the slab which would contain all text information and any accoutrements, and closeups of the coin's obverse and reverse.
In the image below (grabbed from eBay), the coin's orientation and the serial number are 180 degrees from one another, and they render the image of the coin fairly useless due to the need to show the entire slab around it.
(Note - Liz Coggan, the seller, is kind enough to provide high-res closeups of both the obv & rev... thus the net net is, this reverse slab image is the 4th of 3 essential photos. So it all works out in the end. heheh).
-Sean
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
@KOYNGUY
I agree with Sean @Bikergeek regarding your willingness to engage. That shows an inherent customer service mindset that is hard to ignore. I'm glad you commented here.
I must say, I'm also not a big fan of the yellow color. Just a little too "loud" IMO. I think I saw a special label in a softer green that I thought was much more appealing. A blue tint could also work. The loud colors tend to attract eyeballs, but maybe not for the right reasons.
Overall I like the current holder otherwise. Stout and sturdy, simple and useful. As always there could be debates on fonts, information placements, etc. ... but the general look and feel is excellent (IMO), and the curved top situation with the date and grade visible from above was sheer brilliance (again, IMO).
.
@jesbroken
I think the attribution of more specific Die States on holders is a good idea in theory, especially for dramatic differences ... but the reference has to be the defacto standard for the series, and one that has absolutely weathered the test of at least a couple decades, IMO.
Sheldon, Overton, Valentine and Browning all became successful standards in that regard. Newer references with revised or newly created numbering systems just don't have the market penetration ... yet.
Even our own Club (the BHNC) has not weathered that entirely well (yet) with our Die State publication, because of our mistake (IMO) in adding intermediate Die States and then shifting the numbers of the later States to new numbers.
Again, all my opinion, of course.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
>
This is a tricky thing to handle. Many die state transitions are gradual rather than discrete. Waiting for there to be no more die states found before assigning them numbers is not a strategy that is going to get a reference published.
For VAMs, a good example of this is the 1921-S Thornhead (VAM 1B) sequence. What was once seven die stages (1B1 through 1B7) is now something like 11, with stages now named VAM 1B4a, 1B4b, etc. Another approach is evident on the 1891-O VAM 1A series. There are VAMs 1A1 through 1A4, but the progression is 1-4-2-3. VAM 1A4 was listed long after the other 3. It's well documented that this is the case, so it doesn't really screw anyone up (except for yesterday and today with the VAMWorld outage caused by AI bots that I hope to fix tonight).
The only time I've shifted die state suffixes is for obscure coins that nobody collects and grading services haven't or won't attribute. No harm, no foul.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I absolutely agree with this. A bit of a catch-22 situation.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Thanks for your input guys,
I am not in the customer service business. Just an old head winding down my career and giving any clarity I can offer.
I'm here only sporadically, not to beat my chest, or change a hardliner's opinion. Only to offer my truth and experiences as long as our host allows. I am old, better off than most, focused on my 3 teenage boys, and beholden to no one. If your game is rudeness, one upmanship, self promotion, bashing others, You will get silence from me. Promote learning, collector protections, friendship, humorous and interesting commentary. you will have my respect.
Back to your ideas.
If you want to have a standard recognizable product over time. keep it the same. The us dollar is recognized worldwide, that's the reason why it looks the same for nearly 100 years. Don't like the gold color, want it to be more like "the market makers", remember, It's all about the coin.
A coins orientation is based on the obverse. if your desire is rev up, ask us, we will do it
Space on the front of the label has software, and area constraints. And of course keeping costs at a minimum helps keep submission cost low. I'm sure the other guys can offer all the holder and tag variations possible.
R.O.I., collector demand is key for ANACS. It has to make sense to us.
One day AI may identify all dies and die states. Enough to satisfy any coin nerd's curiosity. First and last coin struck, etc. For now, we are 3 numismatists using standard references. J.P.
I appreciate your posting this defense. The only question I have is - Why not bring back the smaller white holders? I, and apparently many others, love them for their compact size and simplicity.
Your comments on attributions and numismatic experience match what I've experienced with a particular grading service. I'm happy if they get the date correct for obvious overdates and realize I have to provide the attribution, additional information, and even an additional coin for comparison to ensure a coin is attributed correctly. I was left wondering if they ever collected coins as a hobby before they were hired and trained.
IMHO, I think most of it comes down to this...
The guys at ANACS and ICG (before Cambell retired) are all longtime NUMISMATISTS out for the collector and not the "buck." They have been working as authenticator/graders since the days of the Wild West - before many of the "NEW'mismatists were even born! Additionally (and this is the other BIG ONE): ICG and ANACS are not shipping out 8-10K coins A DAY and that may be a low estimate. The guys qualified enough to spot a neat coin (Jay Turner for example) don't see everything and then we hear about all the things that were here missed here. No TPGS is perfect. I cannot recall ever reading about some blown attribution that was not eventually fixed.
@Barberian . I Have thought for a long time Anacs would double it's market share if it were to offer the small white slabs as an option. Having said that, I don't run a slabbing service, I am just a two bit collector, and I hope they remain obstinate about visiting the past. Such an option would flood the market with small holders and kill their cachet. James
The parts that make up a slab and the dies to seal them cost a fortune. Unless they kept all the old stuff to use for special requests at an extra price tier, it would be impractical. Now, if they kept the old stuff, you have a real money-making idea about how to dispose of outdated inventory. They should give you some free grading in the old slab!!
@4Redisin . I normally do not argue with people on the internet but your statements are so false I feel compelled. Once upon a time I worked for Fey Industries. As John Fey, (founder) often bragged. "Plastics do not require people to cross jungle rivers, tunnel into mountains or dredge the oceans deep!" Plastic is CHEAP. It is an infinite resource. WE can make more any time.
Anacs already owns the patents. They already have the templates. I also assure you . You don't have to work as a quality control person in a thermo plastics factory to know making a holder with LESS raw material is cheaper.
Finally. i am the one advocating they NOT make retro holders. No matter how challenging it is in 2025 to reverse engineer a holder from the 80's. James
Thanks for taking the time to write the long post. There is nothing to argue about- only a disagreement. Since we don't know what they have (do you?) a patent is a piece of paper not a completed product with every size insert for different coins. As I wrote, great idea if they have leftover product somewhere. Otherwise, I agree with you. Don't do it. We will never know will we.
PS, As someone who is ignorant about slab production I THINK IT COSTS NEARLY THE SAME TO MAKE A LARGE CASE OR A SMALL ONE. As tour boss said" "plastic is cheap".