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Merchants Say: New 3¢ Piece is Incompatible With the Federal Decimal System, Will Not Succeed-1852

JCH22JCH22 Posts: 241 ✭✭✭✭

Below Merchants appear to have been prescient!

Interesting to see the math involved/ how the 3¢ is really a denomination suited to the English, rather than American System (although it did later seem to have some commercial use when fractional notes appeared during the Civil War). Shortcoming of Federal decimal coinage to reflect then existing commercial customs was also interesting to read.

Regardless what the esteemed Merchants said, always liked the little 3¢ silver!



Comments

  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 5,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting

    Mr_Spud

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is interesting is the 3c denomination came about from the postage rate change.

    But also that - due to the lack of federal money (this would eventually trigger the act of 1857 that altered the legal tender status of foreign coins) - a counter clerk would be routinely expected to handle and make change from a mis-mash of coins. English, French, Spanish (Mexican silver dollars), and a dozen other currencies. Tables of values of these were common tools.

    e.g.

    https://www.coinworld.com/news/paper-money/cambists-were-a-bank-tellers-helper-160-years-ago.html

    https://dp.la/primary-source-sets/the-panic-of-1837/sources/1528

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,322 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was all about the weight of the large cents. Imagine having 4 large cents in your pocket, or one large cent and one trime.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It would have been cool if we had a 12.5 cent piece to cover one bit.

  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 241 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2025 3:36PM

    Despite the commercial shortcomings of the decimal system, there was serious consideration given by the Brits during the 1850s to adopt it. Societies were formed, and a Parliamentary Study undertaken:

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,322 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Two Shilling “Florin” was created as a decimal coin in a system where Twenty Shillings equaled a Pound. Other than that decimalization did not happen until the late 1960’s, and the 2 Shilling Florin circulated alongside the 2-1/2 Shilling Half Crown for over a century.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 7,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    19th Century comparison (non-gold).
    GB - 9 denominations:
    farthing, halfpenny, penny, threepence, sixpence, shilling, florin, half crown, crown.
    US - 10 denominations:
    half cent, cent, 2 cents, 3 cents, 5 cents, 10 cents, 20 cents, 25 cents, 50 cents, dollar.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2025 5:50AM

    @JCH22 said:
    Despite the commercial shortcomings of the decimal system, there was serious consideration given by the Brits during the 1850s to adopt it. Societies were formed, and a Parliamentary Study undertaken:

    I'm just offering that Parliament would study a Ham sandwich if some Peer looking to burnish their name got to put their name on the report...

    The Lord-so-and-so report on "The State of the British Sandwich of Cured Salted Pork, its origins, history, and current state across the United Kingdom"

    (adding)

    @CaptHenway said:
    The Two Shilling “Florin” was created as a decimal coin in a system where Twenty Shillings equaled a Pound. Other than that decimalization did not happen until the late 1960’s, and the 2 Shilling Florin circulated alongside the 2-1/2 Shilling Half Crown for over a century.

    Yes, but British children studied maths.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 241 ✭✭✭✭

    @BStrauss3 said:

    I'm just offering that Parliament would study a Ham sandwich if some Peer looking to burnish their name got to put their name on the report...

    The Lord-so-and-so report on "The State of the British Sandwich of Cured Salted Pork, its origins, history, and current state across the United Kingdom"

    Sir: I find your flippant comment a grave offense against the character of the Right Honorable Lord Overstone! Retract I say, or let us be gone with you! :D

    More seriously, the movement in the UK was sustained, with decimal societies being maintained throughout the later 19th and into the 20th Centuries.

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JCH22 said:
    Sir: I find your flippant comment a grave offense against the character of the Right Honorable Lord Overstone! Retract I say, or let us be gone with you! :D

    Dig him up, put a pistol in his hand, and I shall meet him on the field of honor at 3 yards, 5 yards, 7 yards, 10 yards, or even 15 yards.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2025 11:17AM

    It was also my understanding that the trime was intended to redeem the Spanish coinage that came to the mint. Many of the Spanish coins were badly worn and underweight. The trime was the first U.S. which was very frankly billed as a “token coin.” The government made no bones about it. The trime did not contain 3 cents worth of silver.

    Redeeming Spanish coins in trimes made the transaction less attractive.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2025 3:21PM

    Quite useful as it relates to the us postal service. In 1852 the postage for a letter going less than 3000 miles was 3 cents, and over 3000 miles it was 6 cents. The trime was well suited to being sent in the letter, allowing the recipient to pay for return postage. You certainly couldn’t do that with three (or six) large cents! The three cent letter rate was a reduction of postal costs and the three cent rate was adopted July 1, 1851. So……that’s why we got the trime.

  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 241 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2025 11:39AM

    .

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ambro51 said:
    Quite useful as it relates to the us postal service. In 1852 the postage for a letter going less than 3000 miles was 3 cents, and over 3000 miles it was 6 cents. The trime was well suited to being sent in the letter, allowing the recipient to pay for return postage. You certainly couldn’t do that with three (or six) large cents! The three cent letter rate was a reduction of postal costs and the three cent rate was adopted July 1, 1851. So……that’s why we got the trime.

    That's correct. Also, while the movement to urban centers was underway, most Americans still lived in rural locations in 1852. It wasn't until the 1920 census that the nation was over 50% urban.

    Pity the poor postman who had to take unstamped letters from rural mailboxes placed there with three large cents on top, affix a stamp, and return those three large cents to the post office. Or more likely, pity the poor postal horse.

    https://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/fe2r/papers/urban.pdf

    Of males located in rural places in 1850, 23% were located in urban places by 1860. But of these, 3% changed classification only because their 1850 location grew. If we ignore these, and examine those who actually changed location, 20% of rural males moved to urban places over the 1850s. This 20% is a far smaller fraction than the 64% who changed location but remained rural, and even below the 24% rate of urban-to-rural migration. The absolute number of rural-to-urban movers exceeded the number of urban-to-rural movers by 5 to 1, though, so net migration was clearly toward cities and towns during the 1850s.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,322 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have seen an awful lot of well-circulated Trimes and Three Cent Nickels, so obviously there was a niche for the denomination. If it had not been for the invention of the pay telephone, which took three cent nickel coins as the same sized dimes, the denomination would have lasted a lot longer.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    It was also my understanding that the trime was intended to redeem the Spanish coinage that came to the mint. Many of the Spanish coins were badly worn and underweight. The trime was the first U.S. which was very frankly billed as a “token coin.” The government made no bones about it. The trime did not contain 3 cents worth of silver.

    Redeeming Spanish coins in trimes made the transaction less attractive.

    The type 1 trime was 0.80g of 0.750 fine silver (ASW 0.6g) vs. an 1852 half dollar, 13.36g of 0.900 silver, ASW 12.024g.

    The full-value ASW of 3c is 0.721g. However, note that the mint made no distinction as to intrinsic value of the silver vs. the face value. e.g. The 1852 report of the Mint Director (https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/518624) says Philadelphia received deposits of $528,620.62 in silver.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")

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