Mormon GTG - No cheating
PeakRarities
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Ok, this one won't be easy, but it's important that no one cheats, considering how rare these are, it would be quite easy for someone to locate these with minimal effort. And I mean no coinfacts at all, there is no photograde anyway. One helpful tip I can give for coins like this is that they are mainly graded by the luster and the fields, since so many have a pitiful strike. Whether or not you agree with that is another discussion, but these are all PCGS graded examples.
We will label them 1-8 from top to bottom. I want you to assign a numerical grade, and it makes it easy if you arrange the from lowest grade to highest grade, also from top to bottom. If trying to assign a numerical grade for them is too difficult, just try to arrange them in the order previously stated. Have at it!
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I'll jump out and look foolish!
What about the other 6, you run out of steam? 😂
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Just staring at these back and forth up and down. Very tough.
Dont overthink it too much, this is arguably the hardest gtg ever posted here, and you dont have the coins in hand. No matter what, there are going to be some surprises, lol.
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VG-10, cleaned
AU-58
AU-50
VF-30
AU-55
AU-58
AU, cleaned
MS-61
It's too many coins at one time with photos taken at different angles. It's close to impossible because of that.
1) 25
2) 35
3) 30
4) 25
5) 40 / 37.5 😆
6) 50
7) 58 / 55
8) 55 / 58
Hell I don’t know!
Gold is my weakness.
By telling me not to overthink, you probably made me overthink. Clever.
1 - 30
2 - 55
3 - 60
4 - 35
5 - 40
6 - 63
7 - 61
8 - 58
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
The most experienced graders in the world wouldn't be able to get this from pictures. If I didn't see the grades, I would fail miserably, so please don't feel inadequate if you whiff all of them. The point of this thread is better illustrated with more coins, but this would be just as impossible even if you had the coins in hand.
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Assuming they're all straight grades
1) VF30
2) XF45
3) VF35
4) VF25
5) VF35
6) AU50
7) MS60
8) AU55
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
I know absolutely nothing about these coins.
I’m going to say 3 is the highest graded
But I like 7 the best
Martin
This is a bit of an impossible task as accurately distinguishing strike from wear on these really requires having the coin in hand to judge luster and surfaces. There is also the question of whether the coins have been graded consistently in the first place (unlikely if they have been graded over a significant period of time and at both TPGs).
Oh, there's no question about it. The words "pioneer gold" and "consistently graded' don't belong in the same sentence
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Given the above, many of these are little more than a guess. My interpretation of the in-hand appearance of the coins might be very different from how the coins present in hand.
1) 45 (very poor photo, so I’m going off the rims)
2) 53
3) 55
4) 50
5) 45
6) 58
7) 63
8) 55
temporarily tired of scrolling up and down. LOL
"Mormon GTG - No cheating"
With 14 wives, no cheating necessary.
Thank you for entering me in your give a way for these old worn out coins.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Based on age and where you live, you probably recall spending these back in the day?
40
53
50
45
50
55
61
58
The one I called 61 is clearly the nicest, but it still looks like a 61. All others look at least somewhat circulated. Luster is very hard to see in some of the pictures, but that's the nature of the game.
Edit: I had initially graded 9, including an extra 55 between the 5th and 6th coins.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
1) details cleaned {?) Fine but photo looks too bright which makes it looks cleaned when it might not be. The rim seems to be much better which makes me think the strike is just very weak.
2) AU-55
3) EF-40
4) VF-30
5) VF-35
6) AU-58
7) EF-45
8) MS-60
I have never graded these before so I am trying to grade these using my grading standard of other gold coins.
I was going to say that he would have to send them to me to grade in person and not through a photograph..
35
55
40
45
50
58
35
55
I am guessing at least one is MS but I can’t pick one out from these photos.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
No idea at all. Just throwing out some guesses. Assuming all straight graded.
15
35
25
20
30
55
62
Collector
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OK, I'll tee up my whiffleball:
1)vf20
2)AU55
3)EF40
4)vf30
5)AU50
6)MS63
7)AU58
8)MS62
Way out of my lane, but here goes.
1) VF30 details cleaned
2) MS61
3) AU50
4) AU55
5) AU58
6) MS60
7) AU55 on the fence if cleaned
8) MS62
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Ouch!
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
35
55
45
30
50
61
58
62
Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set
successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Downtown1974, Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)
GREAT GTG !!!!
Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set
successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Downtown1974, Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)
One can use the excuse of grading images instead of coins which in all fairness are different exercises. But it seems we are all in the same boat- limited in terms of how we see them. I like coin 6 and 8 the best. And just because I seem to like those 2 best, does not mean they were graded the highest. Coin 7 might have graded the highest and the picture is simply not helping the cause. Coin 1 graded the lowest… perhaps 35. Coin 4 likely graded at 45 even though is my second to the least favorite. Coin 5 might be the sleeper of the group and likely is within the AU spectrum. Coin 3 is my third least favorite. Coin 2 is a dark horse for the top grade depending on what the surfaces of coin 7 looks like in hand.
This is more of a ramble and placing the coins in an order of preference.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Gotta run out for about an hour or so, I'lll post the grades when I get back.
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1) 35- Bad pic, possibly cleaned
2) 58
3) 40
4) 50
5) 55
6) 58
7) 55- Possibly cleaned
8) 60-61
I didn't take the other guesses into account, so here goes!
1. 20
2. 40
3. 55
4. 40
5. 50
6. 60
7. 50
8. 55
I would be astonished if I got even one right. You sure picked a specialty in difficult to grade coins.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
No clue, but #8 is the best looking.
OK ready? The Grades assigned by PCGS are.......
I put them in order from lowest to highest, but you would never be able to tell. Guess which one is my coin?
2-
In that particular Stack's auction, it was late on a weeknight and the auctioneer was ripping through lots, about 4 per minute. I graded the coin a solid 55, so I thought I got a screaming hot deal at the price I paid.
It's got some wear on the highest points, specifically the top half of the miter, but in my opinion the luster seems more than adequate for this issue to be called choice AU. I have 3/6 of the mormon issues, and I've seen the rest of them in hand. They just don't come cartwheel luster, and when the texture of the fields matches the texture inside the letters and protected areas, that indicates, to me at least, that this one didn't see all that much circulation.
You have all heard me express that pioneer grading is all over the place, and I don’t think that point could be better illustrated than it can here with this issue. Here’s a link to all APR’s recorded by PCGS, and some of you may draw your own conclusions . For me, I’m thinking the glove is looking awfully tight
.
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1849-mormon-ms-2-50/10259
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Nice set. My guesses for some reason said they would have to be reviewed before posting. (My experience has been that such review never happens once you get that message so would be surprised to see them show up.)
Here is one I once owned. If I recall correctly it was graded AU-58. Could have regraded higher by now though. Apologies for the poor pictures but Photobucket was having issues so these are photos of the photos.
FWIW IMHO this AU equaled, if not bettered any of those originally posted so based on that my guess would be most of the above are AU 50 or below.
NIce - I like yours and of course the comparing a two and a half to a five is arguably apples to oranges.
I should have corrected that to say AU 55 or below as I meant to reference the next grade down from AU58. That would have made my assumption correct for all but the last two and I agree that I like your AU50 better than the two MS 61s.
What are the other two Mormon Gold coins that you have? At this point I only have two, an 1849 Five and an 1860 Five Lion & Beehive.
Huh. I got a few right. Yours is quite nice!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
What?! Where were you last week for this thread, you missed an R-8 opportunity to post your 1860….better late than never
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1109863/closing-up-my-hunt-for-the-deseret-lion-the-final-mormon-design#latest
Here’s my 1850 $5, I would upgrade it if I was able to find a nicer one, but it was a courtesy purchase that precluded the 1860.
I’ have yet to find a ‘49 5 I liked enough to buy, I want a rich colored coin like the 2.50.
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It’s really the surface quality and not so much the technical wear that brings that coin down. I wrote 53, but I don’t see it as higher than that. The fields are quite beat up.
" I have 3/6 of the mormon issues"
Congratulations on that acquisition, and ALL of your Pioneer Gold 'D-Dan'!
Your Registry Set is looking outstanding ✓
Yes and no, there's a few things to consider there, . I guess if you want to be super strictly technical, but that's not how these have always been graded,
Planchet quality & strike - unstuck planchet observed on the other AU55 examples has that same roughness and texture.
Condition of the dies- Look at the surface texture inside the letters and the protected areas, these coins were not created equal all with uniform appearance. As the dies aged and got rustier, the coins had more pitting.
It's a little quarter eagle the size of a dime, and I took super close ups that are blown up to the size of a dinner plate. Mine also has the highest resolution photos, and none of the other ones have current true views to compare to.
While I acknowledge there are some small scratches and abrasions near the date area and some other abrasions, the ONLY 55 that looks to have better surfaces is the last one, and if you look inside the letters and protected areas, its smooth and glossy. You can even see die polish lines, indicating an earlier die state. That coin simply looked much nicer when it came off the press.
And If we're going to punish a coin for as-struck characteristics like surface texture, then why not punish a weak strike? At that rate, shouldn't the other 50 and top 3 AU55s be held back to XF? The 1850 Moffat $5 is a good example of this, you can have two 58s that look completely different from eachother because of the surface texture and the die rust.
The main issue arises when it seems that these coins were graded on a curve, or "market graded" for decades (the Worst example is in the OGH as a 50), but later on they tighten the screws and start adhering to technical standards. I don't mind if we hold mine to 53, but I want the same standards applied to all of them. Regardless of whatever number we land on, I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack as the 4th or 5th best coin, not tied for last.
Simply put, I want an "EQUAL amount of blueberries in EACH muffin".
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I hate to argue, but that is not all unstruck planchet or die roughness. There are plenty of legitimate rough hits, and the slight shine to the surfaces is from an old cleaning. All coins are graded with surface quality in consideration, and this is no exception.
I disagree, all four 55s have better surfaces. They simply have weaker strikes. They’re flat, but not mottled with (as many) hits. The first 55 looks the most free of marks. The last 55 actually has worse surfaces than at least a couple of the others, the reverse has some fairly significant lines and chatter in the fields (those are not die polish lines). The strike and color is nicer than the others through.
Ignoring strike and wear, the 8th coin looks to have the worst surfaces (borderline cleaned) of the bunch. The first coin looks very dipped out at best as well. The other five don’t seem that bad, all things considered.
I am not saying that coins should be punished for as-struck characteristics, because the surface texture I am describing is not as struck. And regarding strike, that’s just not how grading on the modern Sheldon scale works. Weak strikes and die rust don’t matter, the grade is intended to be a measurement of wear. One of the reasons for that is that there is no way to consistently or objectively rank strike quality, or even to arrive at a consensus for an ideal strike. Grading based on wear and surface quality allows for some foundation of consistency, although of course there is the matter of human error and differing standards. Of course, then you can end up with a pancake AU58 and a well-struck XF45 on some series, but at that point it is up the collector to make a decision on what they want - they can easily judge the amount of visible detail for themselves.
Yes, there have definitely been issues with grading Pioneer gold very loosely, as well as standards changing over time as graders and approaches change, as well as inconsistency on a human level. I can see myself disputing that though, if I could see all the coins in hand. It placed as #5 in my guesses, but if we adjust for two of the coins having weak strikes rather than the wear that I read them as having, then it could very well be #7.
That simply won’t happen, but I understand where you’re coming from.
Considering that I've never seen one of these in hand I got closer than I thought I would to some.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Thanks so much for the link. That was a great thread and I appreciated both your commentary and that added by others regarding the unique 1860 Five Lion & Beehive.
To answer your question about where I was last week, while I wasn't checking the boards, I did at least find some gold in the sky at Waikiki's Magic Island:
very interesting distribution ... thanks for the education and examples !!
Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set
successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Downtown1974, Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)