Real or Fantasy: Fort Sumter Military Hospital token from Department of Indian Affairs?
Zoins
Posts: 34,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
The following Fort Sumter token issued by the U.S. Department of Indian Affairs is interesting.
It says L.A. Stamp on it for the L.A. Stamp and Rubber company. This company did many fantasy tokens so at first I thought this was one, but the dealer says it's authentic.
A few questions:
- Was this token issued by the U.S. Department of Indian Affairs?
- Why did L.A. Stamp (and Rubber) Company create so many fantasy tokens? Were they all to to be used in various movies, or were there other reasons?
- What does "AI CONDITION" mean? I can only think of "Artificial Intelligence", which is Google returns now, even for healthcare.
1
Comments
If in doubt ... pass.
https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Fake-and-fantasy-tokens
Wow, it's good to know there were two companies, "L.A.Stamp" and "L.A. Rubber Stamp". Does anyone know who issued the "L.A. Stamp pieces"?
The article has a lot of good info and photos. Here's some of the text. Click through for more.
https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Fake-and-fantasy-tokens
AI possible meaning ad interim (temporary condition) 🤷🏽♂️ Best guess
Fantasy garbage.
Is this the same company that made all those brothel tokens that were popular flea market fodder back in the 1960s?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No. The original plain brass brothel tokens (38-40mm) were mass distributed by Blackhawk Productions with a mailing address (IIRC) in New England. They were most probably the entity that ordered the tokens but I have no information on who actually struck those tokens. The price was something like $35/100 pcs at the time. The similar but slightly later and smaller 34-36mm tokens were struck by a different company which also struck other Western & railroad fantasies. These brass pieces were probably based on a silver 38-40mm Madame Ruth Jacobs, GF One Screw fantasy that was available in the mid-1960's.
The L.A. Stamp pieces are again produced by a different company which also is responsible for the (unsigned) Channel Island - Nazi fantasies in brass and zinc that waste both time and space. A fabricator in Connecticut in the 1970's & 80's openly offered a price list of unidentified copies of Oregon Beaver trade piece, Hudson Bay trade pieces, trade silver and other early pieces. A well known collector struck copies of a number of Western trade tokens using original Puget Sound Stamp Works dies. A different party faked a number of scarce Montana trade tokens and yet other parties have done a number on Nevada and New Mexico trade tokens. The fantasy Confederate half dollar I.D. pieces come from a different source as well; this producer is also responsible for the fake Southern Crosses and a number of the KKK restrikes and fantasies. Common and rare Civil War tokens have been traced to overseas manufacturers with a number of pieces from Greece and Slavic countries noted. Cast pieces of common CWTs have been around for about 30 years and have even showed up in quantity in ANA on line auction lots -- I had a customer that quit collecting because over 50% of the CWTs he purchased from a Top-3 auction company's ANA sale were bad.
Thousands of art medals (including SOM) have been purchased and shipped to China, many to collectors but others may soon turn up in quantity if they are not already out there. Wait until they discover (more) tokens.
Lots of good information @tokenpro!
Who's the well known collector? Is there any info on what this person struck?
I decided to purchase one of the fantasy coins knowing what it was. I picked up the U.S. Dept of Indian Affairs Good for $5.00 Meat Salt Tobacco fantasy coins only because my current business works with the BIA on a daily basis. I do have some tokens from a bar in Billings Montana that are counter stamped BIA. I'll show it off to a couple of guys at the BIA before I tell them it's not a real thing just for a laugh.
There is nothing worse than fantasy pieces in the world of exonumia. Convolutes understanding of real historical artifacts. Stuff like this was eloquently summarized two years ago by @CaptHenway as "fantasy garbage."
People get burned every day with things they don't understand. Knowledge truly is power, use it to research that unusual item before you pull the trigger.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
What is your definition of a "fantasy token" as I am quite interested...
Could it be the number "1", as opposed to the letter "I", meaning in good condition?
Edited to Add:
If anyone is interested in reviewing the current listing, it appears that this item is still available.
Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/325134851794
Or...it's was supposed to be "AU." The i and u are right next to each other on the keyboard, afterall.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
There are probably a few definitions that can be used, but for the purposes of this thread and token, I alluded to it in my quoted post:
And if so it would be a "fantasy token"?
What are your thoughts on this?
Then there is the logical way of looking at it. Fort Sumter is on a tiny artificial island. Nobody would have built a military hospital on it
Was just going to write this same thing. For anyone that has visited Fort Sumter (and I think our very own @WaterSport may have worked there?) It is a very small place, super close to the shoreline. No hospital, probably not even a sick bay. I am also perplexed by the "US Dept of Indian Affairs" having a presence there, too. 😆 In another 200 years, archeological digs may unearth a "Good for One Cappuccino or Beaver Pelt" Starbucks token from our earliest settlers.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Your post, your definition. Don't want this to go off the rails...
I have spent enough time looking for a scarce SC token to say it is fantasy.
Never seen it... but then have only seen owned one of the dozen or so known tokens I seek.
Why would Indian Affairs have anything to do with Charleston? and a hospital?
Just not buying it.
There is a SC token book and the author sells alot of tokens on Ebay.
I will try to locate the book.
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Interesting and informative thread.
Do not see it in the Tom Chibbaro book of SC Tokens (1990)
There was also a book from 1970's published by Randy Chambers.
According to Chibbaro the number of tokens tripled between the 70's and publication of his book.
Anything is possible I guess...
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There are a handful of Post Exchange Ft Moultrie tokens....
The two forts are close enough that Moultrie participated in the firing on Ft Sumter at the beginning of the CW
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Erik Larson has a great new book out about the history of Fort Sumter called “The Demon of Unrest.” Tells the Who’s and the Why’s and the How’s of the attack.
Mention should be made of the fake metallic body tags that I have seen purporting to be from the BIA, allegedly from the 1870s or so.
And slave badges are another area that has been extensively copied. And I would imagine that there are a lot of fakes among George Washington inaugural buttons, too, although I'm speculating on these.
As the historic sites manager for 4 years I can confirm there was no hospital on site designated or planned at Fort Sumter. Remember - it was unfinished prior to the bombardment and quickly made a ruin afterwards.
WS
Thanks @WaterSport! Great to put this to rest!
What years were you there? I visited in 2012.
Have you read the Larson book I mentioned above? If so, what did you think of it?
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A few months ago a local auction had a Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) body tag token and a Charleston (slave) body tag token.
Comparing the two side-by-side, it was apparent that the "Body No___" stamp on both tokens had exactly the same small defect in the stamp. So they were made by the same entity.
.
I know a metal detecting guy that seems to find a tag every month. Guessing they are found in his back yard shop.
Moultrie is a neat visit and the area looks out and you see incoming container ships into the harbor. Sumter is rustic. The entire Patriots Point is neat with the Yorktown sitting at anchor.
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I was park superintendent at Sumter and Moultrie from 2006 - 2010. I have not read Larsons book and have been waiting for the former park historian Rick Hatchers book which should be coming out soon. While I am at it, a bit of Native American history about Fort Moultrie. Chief Osceola of the seminoles was incarcerated at Moultrie to remove any communication with his native people. He died at the fort and is buried out side the main entrance. And if I am correct this was a military action and not carried out by the BIA.
WS
With a certificate of authenticity what could go wrong?
Interesting article.I had not heard of this floating hospital. There were numerous floating gun batteries aimed at the fort. And it was reported the confederate wounded were taken to churches and other make shift hospitals in Charleston and the surrounding community like Christ Church in Mount Pleasant. I am grateful I never had to live thru this period of time. So much misery.
WS
I'll take a guess. Is it a metal object that represents something that is completely made up?
Got an interesting offer. Sent him a respectful note in the decline detailing our debate and discussion. South Carolina connection interests me, but there are soooooo many affordable tokens it is dizzying.
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