@OAKSTAR said:
Not reading the article or any of these posts. As soon as I saw NYT Magazine: I thought about it, laughed about it, then I forgot about it! Any questions?
Yes, I have a question. Your strongly held political beliefs are well known.
Thanks for reminding everyone. Here's your answer, BITE me!
You came in to this thread specifically to post that you won't read the article mentioned in the title, nor will you read any of the posts in the thread, then asked if anyone had questions, and got very upset when I asked a question.
Did you intend to be rhetorical? Or did you just want to pop into a thread in which you aren't interested, post a not thinly veiled, political dog whistle, and then react like a petulant teenager when anyone else had anything to say?
Grow up.
I knew you were an emotional guy but I didn't realize you're actually quite sensitive.
Was that aimed at him or yourself? He’s not the one who appeared to lose his cool over a reasonable question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A penny weighs 2.5 grams so has enough zinc to poison 12.5 adults and enough to kill any mammal under 18 pounds.
I was consoling Jaques that copper gives fits of gout, not as toxic as zincolns. A COPPERHead bit me one time, it was kinda toxic.
Oh.
Curiously there's a new study out now that says there was copper pollution at Giza centuries before any pyramids were built. They are intimating that some of the workers were poisoned by it but I have to wait for details.
Experts have no hypotheses on what would cause copper pollution in the kind of quantities actually seen.
@ms71 said:
This thread has certainly become entertaining.
Unfortunately it's gone off topic a bit.
I'm hesitant to open the link as well since the NYT just loads dozens of cookies into my computer and then I usually don't even get to read the article.
No reporter is ever going to write a comprehensive and accurate article in this day and age anyway.
Even the picture is a lie since if you look at a pile of pennies they are going to be mostly shield pennies and almost every coin will be tarnished, spotted, and ugly. The story was probably prettied up even more than the picture because no quisling media will come out in favor of change in the status quo.
Even the picture is a lie since if you look at a pile of pennies they are going to be mostly shield pennies and almost every coin will be tarnished, spotted, and ugly. The story was probably prettied up even more than the picture...
You simply are not going to find BU 1977 pennies in pocket change. If you found ANY penny dated before 2020 it would most probably have tarnish even if it is a copper.
Pennies are disgusting but the picture looks like a beginning collector's delight.
The biggest costs it doesn't include is the cost to the economy by forcing the use of credit cards and preventing the circulation of more efficient cash systems.
How does the continued production of cents force the use of credit cards?
"Force" is perhaps too strong a word.
The currency system is broken for which the production of pennies is symptomatic.
It's a broken currency that allows credit cards and the associated problems to prosper. No one ever went into debt to get a 5c candy bar out of a vending machine. Now there is very high overhead and a million middlemen so candy bars cost $1.50 in the stores and half of consumers borrow the money at usurious interest rates. Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
It's all good for the status quo and the status quo no longer includes cash.
>
Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
The real irony is nobody used five one cent coins to buy a candy bar even when they cost a nickel. They used a nickel or got change for silver. Now the same people paying $10 for a candy bar are afraid if pennies are eliminated the candy bar might cost them another penny or two. The reality is it would actually cost slightly less than it does now because the economy would be a little more efficient.
Cents were used to break a nickel but were rarely used more than four at a time. People glared at the little old lady who counted out 127 cents to buy a loaf of bread, a pound of hamburger, and a bottle of ketchup. Many people would tender a dollar, a quarter, and two cents.
Pennies are a blight. They are evidence that the government doesn't care about tax payer money even when it is used to throw money away and impeding progress.
The biggest costs it doesn't include is the cost to the economy by forcing the use of credit cards and preventing the circulation of more efficient cash systems.
How does the continued production of cents force the use of credit cards?
The biggest costs it doesn't include is the cost to the economy by forcing the use of credit cards and preventing the circulation of more efficient cash systems.
How does the continued production of cents force the use of credit cards?
"Force" is perhaps too strong a word.
The currency system is broken for which the production of pennies is symptomatic.
It's a broken currency that allows credit cards and the associated problems to prosper. No one ever went into debt to get a 5c candy bar out of a vending machine. Now there is very high overhead and a million middlemen so candy bars cost $1.50 in the stores and half of consumers borrow the money at usurious interest rates. Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
It's all good for the status quo and the status quo no longer includes cash.
Sorry, none of that sounds remotely close to forcing or even encouraging the use of credit cards.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The biggest costs it doesn't include is the cost to the economy by forcing the use of credit cards and preventing the circulation of more efficient cash systems.
How does the continued production of cents force the use of credit cards?
"Force" is perhaps too strong a word.
The currency system is broken for which the production of pennies is symptomatic.
It's a broken currency that allows credit cards and the associated problems to prosper. No one ever went into debt to get a 5c candy bar out of a vending machine. Now there is very high overhead and a million middlemen so candy bars cost $1.50 in the stores and half of consumers borrow the money at usurious interest rates. Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
It's all good for the status quo and the status quo no longer includes cash.
Sorry, none of that sounds remotely close to forcing or even encouraging the use of credit cards.
It also has very little to do with cents. As silly as the production of cents is, the cost and influence of that effort is minuscule when compared to the entire U.S. economy.
The biggest costs it doesn't include is the cost to the economy by forcing the use of credit cards and preventing the circulation of more efficient cash systems.
How does the continued production of cents force the use of credit cards?
"Force" is perhaps too strong a word.
The currency system is broken for which the production of pennies is symptomatic.
It's a broken currency that allows credit cards and the associated problems to prosper. No one ever went into debt to get a 5c candy bar out of a vending machine. Now there is very high overhead and a million middlemen so candy bars cost $1.50 in the stores and half of consumers borrow the money at usurious interest rates. Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
It's all good for the status quo and the status quo no longer includes cash.
Sorry, none of that sounds remotely close to forcing or even encouraging the use of credit cards.
The government sets the rules concerning credit card use including what the credit card companies are allowed to do with your information and phone numbers. They allow usurious interest rates and create the conditions under which they have been allowed to flourish. until recently stores were not even allowed to recoup the extra costs of credit cards from their customers but this was like closing the barn door after the horse was gone.
Lots of people use credit cards because they like paying exorbitant interest rates but the other half have been forced to it. Many venues no longer even accept cash and you might die if you refuse because many of them are doctors and hospitals. Do you want to be th4e test case while you're having a heart attack?
The government doesn't like cash. This is one of the chief reasons they push credit cards, a broken cash system, broken phone system, and endless rivers of pennies. The status quo builds office buildings in DC to hold ever more lobbyists as DC has gone from the poorest city in the US to one of the richest in a very short time.
For sure, but that won't stop a bunch of old farts complaining about the same old tired nonsense. What a horrible life some people have that the best thing they have to do is whine about the US mint making the cent coin.
Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
Where is anyone paying "eight or ten dollars" for a candy bar, other than maybe at a movie theater in a metropolitan area?
And I suspect/hope that most of the people using plastic at vending machines are using debit cards and not going into debt.
But I still don't understand what any of this has to do with the Mint proviidng the huge quantity of cents that businesses ask for.
>
Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
This sort of hyperbole completely blows your argument and credibility away, ridiculous. A candy bar may cost that much in NYC or LA, but not in the rest of the USA. And anyone that doesn't care about and can afford to pay that for a candy bar couldn't care less about getting rounded up on every transaction. I have to wonder if anyone here has any clue about economics at all.
>
Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
This sort of hyperbole completely blows your argument and credibility away, ridiculous. A candy bar may cost that much in NYC or LA, but not in the rest of the USA. And anyone that doesn't care about and can afford to pay that for a candy bar couldn't care less about getting rounded up on every transaction. I have to wonder if anyone here has any clue about economics at all.
I think he is referring to the effects of 20%+ interest on a credit card for many years turning a $1.50 candy bar into $8-10.
I don't agree with his argument but pretty sure that's his intention.
“Many venues no longer even accept cash and you might die if you refuse because many of them are doctors and hospitals”
Most doctors are happy to accept cash for obvious reasons and it’s not practical for a hospital to allow cash payments for large dollar amounts. Emergency departments at hospitals do not deny medical care if a patient doesn’t have insurance or the financial means to pay. It’s against the law.
>
Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
This sort of hyperbole completely blows your argument and credibility away, ridiculous. A candy bar may cost that much in NYC or LA, but not in the rest of the USA. And anyone that doesn't care about and can afford to pay that for a candy bar couldn't care less about getting rounded up on every transaction. I have to wonder if anyone here has any clue about economics at all.
I think he is referring to the effects of 20%+ interest on a credit card for many years turning a $1.50 candy bar into $8-10.
I don't agree with his argument but pretty sure that's his intention.
That possibility crossed my mind as well, but I'm afraid that he might be the one who is a little out of date on how the economy works. A lot of "younger" people use their debit cards for routine transactions, so they are not racking up candy bar debt.
Where is anyone paying "eight or ten dollars" for a candy bar, other than maybe at a movie theater in a metropolitan area?
>
The minimum payment on credit cards used to be set so if you borrowed a dollar on a card you paid back as much as12 or 15. The government changed that so now it's only about seven or eight dollars. Since half the population pays the minimum that means the $1.50 candy bar that's only worth 50c will cost $10 by the time it's paid off. If you buy it at the honor bar you can pay over $100 for it. $50 at the movie theater is a steal. But it costs $100 to get in now days.
“Many venues no longer even accept cash and you might die if you refuse because many of them are doctors and hospitals”
Most doctors are happy to accept cash for obvious reasons and it’s not practical for a hospital to allow cash payments for large dollar amounts. Emergency departments at hospitals do not deny medical care if a patient doesn’t have insurance or the financial means to pay. It’s against the law.
I'm talking about co-pays. Many places aren't accepting co-pays in cash. Most would probably be willing to bill you if you don't provide a credit card?
Discontinuation of the cent will hurt the unbanked--question then becomes --whether benefit to society as a whole outweighs the harm (and whether the harm is de miminis). No way to discuss those issues non politically.
I don't see the logic here.
Isn't the inability to redeem quarters at the bank a bigger drag than pennies?
I'd wager most "unbanked" individuals are because of governmental laws rather than poverty. Not even a criminal record can prevent someone from opening accounts.
@Typekat said:
FWIW,
Pennies.org is the website put up by the Americans for Common Cents lobby.
.
I wouldn't believe anything on that site. The last time I saw a poll question was something along the l8ines of "would you be willing to give up the cent even if you had to round up?". How could charities suffer from not having to take truckloads of pennies to the bank? People are going to redeem their change jars less often because they are less full and without pennies there will be a lot more money when they do.
Where is anyone paying "eight or ten dollars" for a candy bar, other than maybe at a movie theater in a metropolitan area?
>
The minimum payment on credit cards used to be set so if you borrowed a dollar on a card you paid back as much as12 or 15. The government changed that so now it's only about seven or eight dollars. Since half the population pays the minimum that means the $1.50 candy bar that's only worth 50c will cost $10 by the time it's paid off. If you buy it at the honor bar you can pay over $100 for it. $50 at the movie theater is a steal. But it costs $100 to get in now days.
Why do you assume that 1) everyone is using credit rather than debit cards, and 2) no one pays more than the monthly minimum if they do use a credit card?
And the question remains, what does any of this have to do with minting cents? 🤔
This would be so easy to do, we could easily eliminate the cent and the nickel if we wanted to. When a transaction comes ends with .x1-.x4, round down, .x5-.x9, round up. The “house edge” will ensure that stores don’t take a loss, and the consumer will lose what, a few dollars a year?
The impoverished will be fine, cents and nickels are useless for everyone these days. When I was not financially stable, I thought “pennies” were a waste of resources, and now, I hold the same position.
It’s about special interests and lobbying, nothing else. It has nothing to do with practicality or any of psychological inflation, the fact of the matter is that we have a corrupt and inefficient government that couldn’t care less about wasting tax dollars.
Notes for those who didn’t read Caity Weaver’s article:
The money behind our never-ending penny deluge is a manufacturer called Artazn, out of Greenville, TN. Since 2008 they have sold over $1 billion in copper coated zinc planchets to the Mint.
Ever wonder how Washington really operates? Here’s an example of the multiplying power of national industrial lobbying:
Since 2008, Artazn has spent a mere $3 million dollars on a single lobbyist and the pennies.org website. Yet the revenue that Artazn generates making cent planchets is more than 300 times that amount.
Phil Diehl, Director of the Mint from 1994 to 2000, told Weaver, “At the policy level, I think everybody agrees this is ridiculous.”
Edmund Moy, Mint Director 2006-2011, told her, “I went to Congress saying, ‘Listen, I’m losing $90 million a year on pennies. I said, ‘you guys need to pass a law forcing me to change it’”
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
@Typekat said:
Notes for those who didn’t read Caity Weaver’s article:
The money behind our never-ending penny deluge is a manufacturer called Artazn, out of Greenville, TN. Since 2008 they have sold over $1 billion in copper coated zinc planchets to the Mint.
Ever wonder how Washington really operates? Here’s an example of the multiplying power of national industrial lobbying:
Since 2008, Artazn has spent a mere $3 million dollars on a single lobbyist and the pennies.org website. Yet the revenue that Artazn generates making cent planchets is more than 300 times that amount.
Phil Diehl, Director of the Mint from 1994 to 2000, told Weaver, “At the policy level, I think everybody agrees this is ridiculous.”
Edmund Moy, Mint Director 2006-2011, told her, “I went to Congress saying, ‘Listen, I’m losing $90 a year on pennies. I said, ‘you guys need to pass a law forcing me to change it’”
Losing only $90 a year?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Phil Diehl, Director of the Mint from 1994 to 2000, told Weaver, “At the policy level, I think everybody agrees this is ridiculous.”
The costs of everything are up a few fold since then but the US MInt has the cost of pennies up only slightly because zinc is such a small part of the total costs. It is fabrication costs and the depreciation of mint equipment along with the pensions and healthcare of the many workers and these costs are being ignored or shifted to other denominations.
A loaf of bread has gone from 45c to $1.50 since 1995 but penny costs have reportedly increased only from 2c to 3 1/2 c.
Why do you assume that 1) everyone is using credit rather than debit cards, and 2) no one pays more than the monthly minimum if they do use a credit card?
I make no such assumption. As I said only half of the population is making minimum payments and paying usurious rates.
Meanwhile the US government rolls over its debt every year. Of course they went for a decade paying no interest on it but they are paying a little bit now. They're paying about what they paid in 1962 when taxes were as high as 93% and any loans over 8% were called "usury" and would land you in jail.
I wonder how much a 1983 penny will cost the taxpayer in 2030. Of course almost every single one of the 1983 pennies will have evaporated in air by then but we'll still be paying for them. And we might still be making 2030 pennies.
@mr1931S said:
I'd like to see America free itself from the tyranny of credit cards.
Never going to happen unless we freed ourselves of credit scores and the entire credit system, which is highly flawed system that makes everything more difficult than it needs to be.
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Goldbully said:
I just went back to the article and looked at the quite large image of the Lincoln cents......I did not see one wheat cent in the bunch. Bet she didn't know(or care) that they were 95% copper.
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Number 1 rule of CC finance.............
Do NOT purchase more than you can pay back every month.
I too have never paid 1¢ in CC interest payments in my life.
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
You're not the the only one...I enjoy it greatly also. I haven't paid for a hotel room in years and ~50% of my airfare is free also.
I feel mildly bad that retail prices are higher for cash/debit buyers to subsidize my credit card rewards but any guilt I feel is not going to change the system.
Interesting article, and wild thread. I don't care if they got rid of the cent at all. I would guess that many collectors do not care, as I do not see many in these circles dying for the new cent to come out (I am sure some look forward to it annually). There is certainly not a flood of posted 2024 cents and nickels (once you remove the parking lot "errors").
With current inflation, I think it would actually be hard to notice. We are talking about 1 cent lost on every purchase - < one basis point of 1%. Even the elimination of the nickel would have nearly no impact to everyday purchases. This is against a backdrop of annual CPI increases of 6% in 2021-22, 5.6% in 2022-23 and 3.1% in 2023-24.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
You're not the the only one...I enjoy it greatly also. I haven't paid for a hotel room in years and ~50% of my airfare is free also.
I feel mildly bad that retail prices are higher for cash/debit buyers to subsidize my credit card rewards but any guilt I feel is not going to change the system.
Don’t forget about me, I do the same thing and utilize all my points and cash back rewards and what not. Credit cards are great for those who don’t carry a balance. That said, the entire credit system is highly flawed imo. There’s nothing worse than watching my score drop 80 points because I PAID OFF a loan, or other times, for no apparent reason at all!
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
You're not the the only one...I enjoy it greatly also. I haven't paid for a hotel room in years and ~50% of my airfare is free also.
I feel mildly bad that retail prices are higher for cash/debit buyers to subsidize my credit card rewards but any guilt I feel is not going to change the system.
Don’t forget about me, I do the same thing and utilize all my points and cash back rewards and what not. Credit cards are great for those who don’t carry a balance. That said, the entire credit system is highly flawed imo. There’s nothing worse than watching my score drop 80 points because I PAID OFF a loan, or other times, for no apparent reason at all!
I have no idea what my credit score is and I don't really care. All I know is I keep getting offered new credit cards and people keep offering to loan me money.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@JCH22 said:
Any insight on how the elimination of the half cent was greeted/handled would be informative
I'm not sure the half cent was ever a useful denomination. I think it had more to do with us shoving the decimal system on top of the Spanish real system. 1 real = 12 1/2 cents.
And, I don't think it was a coincidence that they eliminated the half cent at the same time they eliminated legal tender status of Spanish coinage.
@JCH22 said:
Any insight on how the elimination of the half cent was greeted/handled would be informative
The half cent was worth ~12c when it was discontinued in 1857 due to lack of buying power and the increased cost of copper. The coin was never that popular, and was only minted when it was deemed necessary. Therefore, there are many missing dates in the series overall.
While there are not many written documents of the public opinion of half cents, it is clear that they were rarely used by 1857. This is evidenced by there fact that only 35,180 coins were minted in the coin's final year, and the coin survives are hard to find in grades below XF (because the coin was saved and not used in commerce). In fact, all coins in the braided hair series are readily available in UNC due to low demand in commerce.
I would welcome any further scholarly opinions and artifacts on the decommissioning of half cents
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Comments
This thread has certainly become entertaining.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I was consoling Jaques that copper gives fits of gout, not as toxic as zincolns. A COPPERHead bit me one time, it was kinda toxic.
Was that aimed at him or yourself? He’s not the one who appeared to lose his cool over a reasonable question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Boy, that was close.
Oh.
Curiously there's a new study out now that says there was copper pollution at Giza centuries before any pyramids were built. They are intimating that some of the workers were poisoned by it but I have to wait for details.
Experts have no hypotheses on what would cause copper pollution in the kind of quantities actually seen.
Unfortunately it's gone off topic a bit.
I'm hesitant to open the link as well since the NYT just loads dozens of cookies into my computer and then I usually don't even get to read the article.
No reporter is ever going to write a comprehensive and accurate article in this day and age anyway.
Even the picture is a lie since if you look at a pile of pennies they are going to be mostly shield pennies and almost every coin will be tarnished, spotted, and ugly. The story was probably prettied up even more than the picture because no quisling media will come out in favor of change in the status quo.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/pz/sl49d3ntu87y.jpg
You simply are not going to find BU 1977 pennies in pocket change. If you found ANY penny dated before 2020 it would most probably have tarnish even if it is a copper.
Pennies are disgusting but the picture looks like a beginning collector's delight.
That's my favorite brand too.
Maybe Wiki is exaggerating a little.
I've been taking 10mg a few times per week since covid struck. It's supposed to help with colds.
"Force" is perhaps too strong a word.
The currency system is broken for which the production of pennies is symptomatic.
It's a broken currency that allows credit cards and the associated problems to prosper. No one ever went into debt to get a 5c candy bar out of a vending machine. Now there is very high overhead and a million middlemen so candy bars cost $1.50 in the stores and half of consumers borrow the money at usurious interest rates. Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
It's all good for the status quo and the status quo no longer includes cash.
>
Half of the population are paying eight or ten dollars for a 50c candy bar that has increased 10x due to inflation in part because our government makes billions and billions of toxic little slugs every year.
The real irony is nobody used five one cent coins to buy a candy bar even when they cost a nickel. They used a nickel or got change for silver. Now the same people paying $10 for a candy bar are afraid if pennies are eliminated the candy bar might cost them another penny or two. The reality is it would actually cost slightly less than it does now because the economy would be a little more efficient.
Cents were used to break a nickel but were rarely used more than four at a time. People glared at the little old lady who counted out 127 cents to buy a loaf of bread, a pound of hamburger, and a bottle of ketchup. Many people would tender a dollar, a quarter, and two cents.
Pennies are a blight. They are evidence that the government doesn't care about tax payer money even when it is used to throw money away and impeding progress.
He's trying too hard.
Sorry, none of that sounds remotely close to forcing or even encouraging the use of credit cards.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It also has very little to do with cents. As silly as the production of cents is, the cost and influence of that effort is minuscule when compared to the entire U.S. economy.
The government sets the rules concerning credit card use including what the credit card companies are allowed to do with your information and phone numbers. They allow usurious interest rates and create the conditions under which they have been allowed to flourish. until recently stores were not even allowed to recoup the extra costs of credit cards from their customers but this was like closing the barn door after the horse was gone.
Lots of people use credit cards because they like paying exorbitant interest rates but the other half have been forced to it. Many venues no longer even accept cash and you might die if you refuse because many of them are doctors and hospitals. Do you want to be th4e test case while you're having a heart attack?
The government doesn't like cash. This is one of the chief reasons they push credit cards, a broken cash system, broken phone system, and endless rivers of pennies. The status quo builds office buildings in DC to hold ever more lobbyists as DC has gone from the poorest city in the US to one of the richest in a very short time.
For sure, but that won't stop a bunch of old farts complaining about the same old tired nonsense. What a horrible life some people have that the best thing they have to do is whine about the US mint making the cent coin.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Where is anyone paying "eight or ten dollars" for a candy bar, other than maybe at a movie theater in a metropolitan area?
And I suspect/hope that most of the people using plastic at vending machines are using debit cards and not going into debt.
But I still don't understand what any of this has to do with the Mint proviidng the huge quantity of cents that businesses ask for.
This sort of hyperbole completely blows your argument and credibility away, ridiculous. A candy bar may cost that much in NYC or LA, but not in the rest of the USA. And anyone that doesn't care about and can afford to pay that for a candy bar couldn't care less about getting rounded up on every transaction. I have to wonder if anyone here has any clue about economics at all.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I think he is referring to the effects of 20%+ interest on a credit card for many years turning a $1.50 candy bar into $8-10.
I don't agree with his argument but pretty sure that's his intention.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Just enter
STOP
to end this out-of-control thread.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
@cladking
“Many venues no longer even accept cash and you might die if you refuse because many of them are doctors and hospitals”
Most doctors are happy to accept cash for obvious reasons and it’s not practical for a hospital to allow cash payments for large dollar amounts. Emergency departments at hospitals do not deny medical care if a patient doesn’t have insurance or the financial means to pay. It’s against the law.
That possibility crossed my mind as well, but I'm afraid that he might be the one who is a little out of date on how the economy works. A lot of "younger" people use their debit cards for routine transactions, so they are not racking up candy bar debt.
.
FWIW,
Pennies.org is the website put up by the Americans for Common Cents lobby.
.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
>
The minimum payment on credit cards used to be set so if you borrowed a dollar on a card you paid back as much as12 or 15. The government changed that so now it's only about seven or eight dollars. Since half the population pays the minimum that means the $1.50 candy bar that's only worth 50c will cost $10 by the time it's paid off. If you buy it at the honor bar you can pay over $100 for it. $50 at the movie theater is a steal. But it costs $100 to get in now days.
I'm talking about co-pays. Many places aren't accepting co-pays in cash. Most would probably be willing to bill you if you don't provide a credit card?
I don't see the logic here.
Isn't the inability to redeem quarters at the bank a bigger drag than pennies?
I'd wager most "unbanked" individuals are because of governmental laws rather than poverty. Not even a criminal record can prevent someone from opening accounts.
I wouldn't believe anything on that site. The last time I saw a poll question was something along the l8ines of "would you be willing to give up the cent even if you had to round up?". How could charities suffer from not having to take truckloads of pennies to the bank? People are going to redeem their change jars less often because they are less full and without pennies there will be a lot more money when they do.
thanks. I needed the laugh.
Why do you assume that 1) everyone is using credit rather than debit cards, and 2) no one pays more than the monthly minimum if they do use a credit card?
And the question remains, what does any of this have to do with minting cents? 🤔
This would be so easy to do, we could easily eliminate the cent and the nickel if we wanted to. When a transaction comes ends with .x1-.x4, round down, .x5-.x9, round up. The “house edge” will ensure that stores don’t take a loss, and the consumer will lose what, a few dollars a year?
The impoverished will be fine, cents and nickels are useless for everyone these days. When I was not financially stable, I thought “pennies” were a waste of resources, and now, I hold the same position.
It’s about special interests and lobbying, nothing else. It has nothing to do with practicality or any of psychological inflation, the fact of the matter is that we have a corrupt and inefficient government that couldn’t care less about wasting tax dollars.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Notes for those who didn’t read Caity Weaver’s article:
The money behind our never-ending penny deluge is a manufacturer called Artazn, out of Greenville, TN. Since 2008 they have sold over $1 billion in copper coated zinc planchets to the Mint.
Ever wonder how Washington really operates? Here’s an example of the multiplying power of national industrial lobbying:
Since 2008, Artazn has spent a mere $3 million dollars on a single lobbyist and the pennies.org website. Yet the revenue that Artazn generates making cent planchets is more than 300 times that amount.
Phil Diehl, Director of the Mint from 1994 to 2000, told Weaver, “At the policy level, I think everybody agrees this is ridiculous.”
Edmund Moy, Mint Director 2006-2011, told her, “I went to Congress saying, ‘Listen, I’m losing $90 million a year on pennies. I said, ‘you guys need to pass a law forcing me to change it’”
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Losing only $90 a year?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The costs of everything are up a few fold since then but the US MInt has the cost of pennies up only slightly because zinc is such a small part of the total costs. It is fabrication costs and the depreciation of mint equipment along with the pensions and healthcare of the many workers and these costs are being ignored or shifted to other denominations.
A loaf of bread has gone from 45c to $1.50 since 1995 but penny costs have reportedly increased only from 2c to 3 1/2 c.
@MFeld
Corrected, thanks for catching that!
Loss of $90 million a year to make pennies, and that was at least twelve years ago!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
I make no such assumption. As I said only half of the population is making minimum payments and paying usurious rates.
Meanwhile the US government rolls over its debt every year. Of course they went for a decade paying no interest on it but they are paying a little bit now. They're paying about what they paid in 1962 when taxes were as high as 93% and any loans over 8% were called "usury" and would land you in jail.
I wonder how much a 1983 penny will cost the taxpayer in 2030. Of course almost every single one of the 1983 pennies will have evaporated in air by then but we'll still be paying for them. And we might still be making 2030 pennies.
Sure and thanks for posting what you did - it was eye-opening and disturbing to read it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'd like to see America free itself from the tyranny of credit cards.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Never going to happen unless we freed ourselves of credit scores and the entire credit system, which is highly flawed system that makes everything more difficult than it needs to be.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I'd like to see America free itself from the tyranny of cash.
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Damn, that’s why I throw my money away so fast, I despise tyranny.
Here is one partially showing.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
Number 1 rule of CC finance.............
Do NOT purchase more than you can pay back every month.
I too have never paid 1¢ in CC interest payments in my life.
You're not the the only one...I enjoy it greatly also. I haven't paid for a hotel room in years and ~50% of my airfare is free also.
I feel mildly bad that retail prices are higher for cash/debit buyers to subsidize my credit card rewards but any guilt I feel is not going to change the system.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Interesting article, and wild thread. I don't care if they got rid of the cent at all. I would guess that many collectors do not care, as I do not see many in these circles dying for the new cent to come out (I am sure some look forward to it annually). There is certainly not a flood of posted 2024 cents and nickels (once you remove the parking lot "errors").
With current inflation, I think it would actually be hard to notice. We are talking about 1 cent lost on every purchase - < one basis point of 1%. Even the elimination of the nickel would have nearly no impact to everyday purchases. This is against a backdrop of annual CPI increases of 6% in 2021-22, 5.6% in 2022-23 and 3.1% in 2023-24.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
.
Don’t forget about me, I do the same thing and utilize all my points and cash back rewards and what not. Credit cards are great for those who don’t carry a balance. That said, the entire credit system is highly flawed imo. There’s nothing worse than watching my score drop 80 points because I PAID OFF a loan, or other times, for no apparent reason at all!
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I have no idea what my credit score is and I don't really care. All I know is I keep getting offered new credit cards and people keep offering to loan me money.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm not sure the half cent was ever a useful denomination. I think it had more to do with us shoving the decimal system on top of the Spanish real system. 1 real = 12 1/2 cents.
And, I don't think it was a coincidence that they eliminated the half cent at the same time they eliminated legal tender status of Spanish coinage.
.
The half cent was worth ~12c when it was discontinued in 1857 due to lack of buying power and the increased cost of copper. The coin was never that popular, and was only minted when it was deemed necessary. Therefore, there are many missing dates in the series overall.
While there are not many written documents of the public opinion of half cents, it is clear that they were rarely used by 1857. This is evidenced by there fact that only 35,180 coins were minted in the coin's final year, and the coin survives are hard to find in grades below XF (because the coin was saved and not used in commerce). In fact, all coins in the braided hair series are readily available in UNC due to low demand in commerce.
I would welcome any further scholarly opinions and artifacts on the decommissioning of half cents
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.