@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Nope. I do the same. You've got cash back plus buyer protections. It's a no-brainer.
The title of the NYT article is over the top IMHO.
Does anyone here believe that the U.S. one cent coin is the source of any Tyranny!
I myself do not experience any discomfort, angst, anger, sadness, remorse, disquiet or other such feelings when I see, hold, receive, think about or otherwise come into contact with a U.S. one cent coin.
If anyone believes that the U.S. one cent coin is the source of Tyranny, that person or those persons should shift his, her, their attention to some other topic and avoid all of the bad feelings mentioned above.
The use of the term Tyranny in the title of the article reminds me of similar headlines of new articles covering events happening in a variety of areas of human endeavor (including sports, entertainment, music, politics, fashion, etc.). For example a title that states Fans Are Outraged about ................................. (something someone did or said).
@steve_richardson said:
Nice article. I read it because I already think we should stop producing the cent (and probably the nickel, too) and was curious to see what they had to say about it. There’s some interesting info there, for example the major role that coinstar plays in the life cycle of US coinage. But the bit that I found most interesting was this:
“The Secretary of the Treasury shall,” Section 5111 reads, “mint and issue” denominations of coins “in amounts the Secretary decides are necessary to meet the needs of the United States.”
Seems like there is a possible loophole that the Secretary of the Treasury could use to just by fiat stop making pennies. I’m not a lawyer so have no idea how feasible this would actually be, but it’s fun to imagine.
"Shall" and "may" have specific definitions in the law. I believe that "shall" means that he has to do it.
We just had a thread on this very issue a few weeks ago. Cents are minted because there is demand for them. If no one wanted them then the issue would resolve itself.
Nobody wants them, but when they disappear into pickle jars, the mint has to replace them. In my humble opinion, I would doubt if the Mint gets a handfull of requests for new ones(collectors not included) If the government would allow the copper in them to be harvested, it would be over for the cent. If they stopped minting them, would banks scream for more? Not likely.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@steve_richardson said:
Nice article. I read it because I already think we should stop producing the cent (and probably the nickel, too) and was curious to see what they had to say about it. There’s some interesting info there, for example the major role that coinstar plays in the life cycle of US coinage. But the bit that I found most interesting was this:
“The Secretary of the Treasury shall,” Section 5111 reads, “mint and issue” denominations of coins “in amounts the Secretary decides are necessary to meet the needs of the United States.”
Seems like there is a possible loophole that the Secretary of the Treasury could use to just by fiat stop making pennies. I’m not a lawyer so have no idea how feasible this would actually be, but it’s fun to imagine.
"Shall" and "may" have specific definitions in the law. I believe that "shall" means that he has to do it.
We just had a thread on this very issue a few weeks ago. Cents are minted because there is demand for them. If no one wanted them then the issue would resolve itself.
Nobody wants them, but when they disappear into pickle jars, the mint has to replace them. In my humble opinion, I would doubt if the Mint gets a handfull of requests for new ones (collectors not included) If the government would allow the copper in them to be harvested, it would be over for the cent. If they stopped minting them, would banks scream for more? Not likely.
Jim
The mint strikes cents to meet demand. Banks order them because customers (mainly businesses, presumably) order them.
All of the other arguments in this thread are about what people should want or should do, but the reality is that they are being ordered by end users. If people refused to accept them in change then demand - and mintages - would plummet.
Today was my lucky day. Parked my car, opened the door and there was a nice shiny penny on the pavement. Of course I picked it up. Nothing like free money.
@skier07 said:
Today was my lucky day. Parked my car, opened the door and there was a nice shiny penny on the pavement. Of course I picked it up. Nothing like free money.
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Number 1 rule of CC finance.............
Do NOT purchase more than you can pay back every month.
I too have never paid 1¢ in CC interest payments in my life.
I do not doubt that.
However, you do end up "paying", as do all of us.
Merchants get charged about 3% of the amount when credit cards are used by their customers.
That extra 3% ultimately gets passed on to the consumer via higher prices for the goods and services.
We have a "middleman" basically skimming 3% off the top of everything.
Use cash and cut out the middleman.
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Number 1 rule of CC finance.............
Do NOT purchase more than you can pay back every month.
I too have never paid 1¢ in CC interest payments in my life.
I do not doubt that.
However, you do end up "paying", as do all of us.
Merchants get charged about 3% of the amount when credit cards are used by their customers.
That extra 3% ultimately gets passed on to the consumer via higher prices for the goods and services.
We have a "middleman" basically skimming 3% off the top of everything.
Use cash and cut out the middleman.
How often does the merchant give you a discount for using cash? I'll use cash when I can get a cash discount. Otherwise, I'll use a credit card for the many benefits already discussed here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Number 1 rule of CC finance.............
Do NOT purchase more than you can pay back every month.
I too have never paid 1¢ in CC interest payments in my life.
I do not doubt that.
However, you do end up "paying", as do all of us.
Merchants get charged about 3% of the amount when credit cards are used by their customers.
That extra 3% ultimately gets passed on to the consumer via higher prices for the goods and services.
We have a "middleman" basically skimming 3% off the top of everything.
Use cash and cut out the middleman.
How often does the merchant give you a discount for using cash? I'll use cash when I can get a cash discount. Otherwise, I'll use a credit card for the many benefits already discussed here.
Yeah, the paradox of the individual making a sacrifice for the perceived good of the whole. That has failed throughout eternity.
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Number 1 rule of CC finance.............
Do NOT purchase more than you can pay back every month.
I too have never paid 1¢ in CC interest payments in my life.
I do not doubt that.
However, you do end up "paying", as do all of us.
Merchants get charged about 3% of the amount when credit cards are used by their customers.
That extra 3% ultimately gets passed on to the consumer via higher prices for the goods and services.
We have a "middleman" basically skimming 3% off the top of everything.
Use cash and cut out the middleman.
That's why banks are one of the biggest advocates of a cashless society. Imagine getting 3% of every financial transaction in the entire economy.
Businesses want to go cash free too. No more nightly accounting and deposits. No more cash theft by employees or robbery. They love the idea and many business have already went cashless.
Of course government LOVES the idea. They get to monitor every transaction.
Add all that up, and the days of cash are limited.
@PerryHall said:
Am I the only one here that uses credit cards for almost everything, pay the credit card bill in full every month, has never paid a cent in interest on credit cards, and enjoys earning a rebate on credit card purchases at the end of the year?
Number 1 rule of CC finance.............
Do NOT purchase more than you can pay back every month.
I too have never paid 1¢ in CC interest payments in my life.
I do not doubt that.
However, you do end up "paying", as do all of us.
Merchants get charged about 3% of the amount when credit cards are used by their customers.
That extra 3% ultimately gets passed on to the consumer via higher prices for the goods and services.
We have a "middleman" basically skimming 3% off the top of everything.
Use cash and cut out the middleman.
How often does the merchant give you a discount for using cash? I'll use cash when I can get a cash discount. Otherwise, I'll use a credit card for the many benefits already discussed here.
I used to use a lot more cash, then I got a 2% cash back credit card which I pay off as I go. It's hard to turn down a 2% discount on everything you buy.
Canada ditched its cent in 2012 and the one dollar bill in 1973 and their economy functions quite well without them. They also have a useful two dollar coin.
For an advanced country we don't seem to be able to do the simplest of things that would save millions of dollars annually. Very frustrating...
For an advanced country we don't seem to be able to do the simplest of things that would save millions of dollars annually. Very frustrating...
This is why I hate the penny so much: It is symbolic of everything wrong with this country as well as the inertia that has always plagued man. It's rarely very hard to do what's right but it's always very very easy to do what's wrong. The mint could just stop minting the cent and see what entity thinks it is needed and forces them to resume. I doubt the FED would come down on the side of the penny and Congress has no ability to act except through their bureaus. Which bureau is going to act?
Of course the FED has the power to just stop ordering pennies. But they can't do this without first warning merchants that they'll have to round. It will take hours and hours and hours for all the computers to be reprogrammed and cash registers remodeled. And pennies would dry up in mere days.
In `1974 the mint was still sane and when the cost of making pennies approached one cent began experimenting with aluminum. There was no law that said they had to do this, it was just common sense. When the price of copper receded they just ignored future increases until the lobbyists got involved. Even the 1982 zincolns probably cost over one cent to produce but with creative accounting the new status quo arose.
It seems there are a lot of authoritarian measures being proposed - forced imposition of various policies
If you don't want the cent to continue then convince your fellow consumers to stop accepting them and convince retailers to round down (to the customers' benefit).
On a side note, I lament the disappearance of charity containers at the checkout counter where people could deposit unwanted coins. The old model was that the charities periodically sent someone in to collect all the jars and cannisters, but in a new model, the stores could count the coins and cut the charity a check (or do an online transfer). That way the coins could just stay in the store and the cents, at least, would remain in a closed loop: cash register to container, and then container back into the cash register.
@GotTheBug said:
Canada ditched its cent in 2012 and the one dollar bill in 1973 and their economy functions quite well without them. They also have a useful two dollar coin.
For an advanced country we don't seem to be able to do the simplest of things that would save millions of dollars annually. Very frustrating...
Edited for typo.
One interesting counterpoint, Japan is pretty technologically advanced and the vanguard for a lot of changes. Yet, cash is a MAJOR part of their day to day transactions. Outside of the big cities, it would be difficult to get by with only cards.
(I sat and watched an interesting example in Ginza, which is like the Beverly Hills of Tokyo, I saw 150-200 people lining up outside what looked like a big newsstand. Whenever anyone left one of the windows they had a fat envelope full of cash. Turns out, it was lottery winners going to collect their winnings. Just guessing by the size of the envelopes but most amounts seemed to be in the $1000-10,000 range (or, 150k-1.5M yen). It was fascinating.)
It would be interesting to see the proponents of continuing the production of cents (i.e. Zinc suppliers) to lobby the powers that be to resume the production of the half cent. If doing so had any logical foundation, then whether or not such a lobbying effort was successful, it would divert attention away from debating whether or not to cease the production of cents (thereby prolonging the current status quo to the benefit of the proponents).
@GotTheBug said:
Canada ditched its cent in 2012 and the one dollar bill in 1973 and their economy functions quite well without them. They also have a useful two dollar coin.
For an advanced country we don't seem to be able to do the simplest of things that would save millions of dollars annually. Very frustrating...
Edited for typo.
Have been a proponent of dropping the now worthless cent for 20 years. It is an important part of Americana though and a throwback to the Depression when you could buy some candy with it. Eliminating the coin though, might unsettle the post pandemic zombies a bit, even though they will walk by a cent or two on the ground, rather than bend over and pick them up.
@GotTheBug said:
Canada ditched its cent in 2012 and the one dollar bill in 1973 and their economy functions quite well without them. They also have a useful two dollar coin.
For an advanced country we don't seem to be able to do the simplest of things that would save millions of dollars annually. Very frustrating...
Edited for typo.
One interesting counterpoint, Japan is pretty technologically advanced and the vanguard for a lot of changes. Yet, cash is a MAJOR part of their day to day transactions. Outside of the big cities, it would be difficult to get by with only cards.
(I sat and watched an interesting example in Ginza, which is like the Beverly Hills of Tokyo, I saw 150-200 people lining up outside what looked like a big newsstand. Whenever anyone left one of the windows they had a fat envelope full of cash. Turns out, it was lottery winners going to collect their winnings. Just guessing by the size of the envelopes but most amounts seemed to be in the $1000-10,000 range (or, 150k-1.5M yen). It was fascinating.)
Aren't they one of the oldest countries in the world? I would bet cash usage increases with age. My students carry zero cash.
We got rid of the half-cent in 1853. It simply didn’t have enough purchasing power to be worth using. The cent was good enough. One cent in those days had the purchasing power of 36 cents today. Arguably, even the quarter is hardly worth keeping around.
We ought to have coins from 25 cents up to 10 dollar denominations. Bills from $20 to $1000. It seems reasonable to pay for a sit-down meal with pocket change.
Never gunna happen, but it would if logic ruled the world. I understand the desire of governments to eliminate larger bills……..
A $200 or $250 note would be great. Not so long ago a $100 would take a family through a weekend on the road. Now, about a tank of gas and a burger, maybe, if you’re lucky.
If merchants and banks simply decided to not accept pennies and if we culturally decided against using them like we did half dollars, then the penny would have been phased out without any legislation necessary.
@DocBenjamin said:
Return to the gold standard and every problem mentioned would be resolved.
True. We would just have many more and much worse problems.
I will exit the discussion as we are restricted a bit. We can freely discuss metallurgy and preservation, but the men on the coins and their policies, not so much.
Comments
.
Nope. I do the same. You've got cash back plus buyer protections. It's a no-brainer.
Lol. Not "money". "Cash".
The title of the NYT article is over the top IMHO.
Does anyone here believe that the U.S. one cent coin is the source of any Tyranny!
I myself do not experience any discomfort, angst, anger, sadness, remorse, disquiet or other such feelings when I see, hold, receive, think about or otherwise come into contact with a U.S. one cent coin.
If anyone believes that the U.S. one cent coin is the source of Tyranny, that person or those persons should shift his, her, their attention to some other topic and avoid all of the bad feelings mentioned above.
The use of the term Tyranny in the title of the article reminds me of similar headlines of new articles covering events happening in a variety of areas of human endeavor (including sports, entertainment, music, politics, fashion, etc.). For example a title that states Fans Are Outraged about ................................. (something someone did or said).
“Tyranny” as used by the headline writer is a (clumsy) figure of speech.
Writers of newspaper articles have no control over the headline inserted when it goes to print later.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Headlines are intentionally designed to create Buzz that will grab attention of as many readers as possible.
Most Buzz words cause me to not give the headline and accompanying article any attention at all.
Nobody wants them, but when they disappear into pickle jars, the mint has to replace them. In my humble opinion, I would doubt if the Mint gets a handfull of requests for new ones(collectors not included) If the government would allow the copper in them to be harvested, it would be over for the cent. If they stopped minting them, would banks scream for more? Not likely.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The mint strikes cents to meet demand. Banks order them because customers (mainly businesses, presumably) order them.
All of the other arguments in this thread are about what people should want or should do, but the reality is that they are being ordered by end users. If people refused to accept them in change then demand - and mintages - would plummet.
Today was my lucky day. Parked my car, opened the door and there was a nice shiny penny on the pavement. Of course I picked it up. Nothing like free money.
Sounds like parking lot cash back!
I do not doubt that.
However, you do end up "paying", as do all of us.
Merchants get charged about 3% of the amount when credit cards are used by their customers.
That extra 3% ultimately gets passed on to the consumer via higher prices for the goods and services.
We have a "middleman" basically skimming 3% off the top of everything.
Use cash and cut out the middleman.
I agree. However, the guy with the oil drums of copper cents might pause to think about that.
How often does the merchant give you a discount for using cash? I'll use cash when I can get a cash discount. Otherwise, I'll use a credit card for the many benefits already discussed here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yeah, the paradox of the individual making a sacrifice for the perceived good of the whole. That has failed throughout eternity.
America needs to rid itself of the tyranny of crappy journalism. Funny how much BS the people buy , thanks to “it”.
Mind your cents.
That's why banks are one of the biggest advocates of a cashless society. Imagine getting 3% of every financial transaction in the entire economy.
Businesses want to go cash free too. No more nightly accounting and deposits. No more cash theft by employees or robbery. They love the idea and many business have already went cashless.
Of course government LOVES the idea. They get to monitor every transaction.
Add all that up, and the days of cash are limited.
I used to use a lot more cash, then I got a 2% cash back credit card which I pay off as I go. It's hard to turn down a 2% discount on everything you buy.
Canada ditched its cent in 2012 and the one dollar bill in 1973 and their economy functions quite well without them. They also have a useful two dollar coin.
For an advanced country we don't seem to be able to do the simplest of things that would save millions of dollars annually. Very frustrating...
Edited for typo.
This is why I hate the penny so much: It is symbolic of everything wrong with this country as well as the inertia that has always plagued man. It's rarely very hard to do what's right but it's always very very easy to do what's wrong. The mint could just stop minting the cent and see what entity thinks it is needed and forces them to resume. I doubt the FED would come down on the side of the penny and Congress has no ability to act except through their bureaus. Which bureau is going to act?
Of course the FED has the power to just stop ordering pennies. But they can't do this without first warning merchants that they'll have to round. It will take hours and hours and hours for all the computers to be reprogrammed and cash registers remodeled. And pennies would dry up in mere days.
In `1974 the mint was still sane and when the cost of making pennies approached one cent began experimenting with aluminum. There was no law that said they had to do this, it was just common sense. When the price of copper receded they just ignored future increases until the lobbyists got involved. Even the 1982 zincolns probably cost over one cent to produce but with creative accounting the new status quo arose.
It seems there are a lot of authoritarian measures being proposed - forced imposition of various policies
If you don't want the cent to continue then convince your fellow consumers to stop accepting them and convince retailers to round down (to the customers' benefit).
On a side note, I lament the disappearance of charity containers at the checkout counter where people could deposit unwanted coins. The old model was that the charities periodically sent someone in to collect all the jars and cannisters, but in a new model, the stores could count the coins and cut the charity a check (or do an online transfer). That way the coins could just stay in the store and the cents, at least, would remain in a closed loop: cash register to container, and then container back into the cash register.
One interesting counterpoint, Japan is pretty technologically advanced and the vanguard for a lot of changes. Yet, cash is a MAJOR part of their day to day transactions. Outside of the big cities, it would be difficult to get by with only cards.
(I sat and watched an interesting example in Ginza, which is like the Beverly Hills of Tokyo, I saw 150-200 people lining up outside what looked like a big newsstand. Whenever anyone left one of the windows they had a fat envelope full of cash. Turns out, it was lottery winners going to collect their winnings. Just guessing by the size of the envelopes but most amounts seemed to be in the $1000-10,000 range (or, 150k-1.5M yen). It was fascinating.)
It would be interesting to see the proponents of continuing the production of cents (i.e. Zinc suppliers) to lobby the powers that be to resume the production of the half cent. If doing so had any logical foundation, then whether or not such a lobbying effort was successful, it would divert attention away from debating whether or not to cease the production of cents (thereby prolonging the current status quo to the benefit of the proponents).
Have been a proponent of dropping the now worthless cent for 20 years. It is an important part of Americana though and a throwback to the Depression when you could buy some candy with it. Eliminating the coin though, might unsettle the post pandemic zombies a bit, even though they will walk by a cent or two on the ground, rather than bend over and pick them up.
Aren't they one of the oldest countries in the world? I would bet cash usage increases with age. My students carry zero cash.
……. and the nickel, and the dime.
We got rid of the half-cent in 1853. It simply didn’t have enough purchasing power to be worth using. The cent was good enough. One cent in those days had the purchasing power of 36 cents today. Arguably, even the quarter is hardly worth keeping around.
We ought to have coins from 25 cents up to 10 dollar denominations. Bills from $20 to $1000. It seems reasonable to pay for a sit-down meal with pocket change.
Never gunna happen, but it would if logic ruled the world. I understand the desire of governments to eliminate larger bills……..
A $200 or $250 note would be great. Not so long ago a $100 would take a family through a weekend on the road. Now, about a tank of gas and a burger, maybe, if you’re lucky.
Again…… never gunna happen.
If merchants and banks simply decided to not accept pennies and if we culturally decided against using them like we did half dollars, then the penny would have been phased out without any legislation necessary.
Return to the gold standard and every problem mentioned would be resolved.
True. We would just have many more and much worse problems.
x
I will exit the discussion as we are restricted a bit. We can freely discuss metallurgy and preservation, but the men on the coins and their policies, not so much.