Fakes and Ebay
sellitstore
Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know that this is a subject that has been discussed here before but I'd like to add my experience in the related area of paper money fakes. I've been reporting them sporadically for 20+ years now with mixed results.
Today I reported an obvious "parchment paper" fake and quickly received the below AI generated response. I find it very frustrating that this marketplace has not found an effective way of stopping the sale of obvious fakes. They seem to be better at pulling fake coins. Why is this? More reports from coin collectors? What do you think of AI making these calls and how does that work with coins?
**A decision was made on the listing you reported
Hello sellitstore,
Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.
What happened:
We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.
If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.
Your reference ID:
2-182188061332
Here are the listings you reported that are included in this decision:
Item: 226221474727 1780 State Of Rhode Island Three Dollar Note Hall and Sellers Rare Old HTF!
Thank you for being part of the eBay community.
Thanks,
eBay
Please don't reply to this message. It was sent from an address that doesn't accept incoming email.
eBay Document ID: 142936716000**
Comments
Yep... AI response.... all is well..... as long as ebay can make money on the listing. It did take some time and a lot of effort on the part of fake coins, and as you mentioned that has improved and they are more responsive. Perhaps the paper money field lags behind in this effort and will require more time for it to improve also (if it ever does). Meanwhile, knowledge is king and buyer beware.
What is the telling signs that it is fake.
Seller has over 1000 sales with a 100% approval rate.
eBay needs proof other than someone saying it is counterfeit.
Lately, I've received "We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy..." replies from eBay, related to egregiously blatant counterfeit coins, such as an 1845-CC $1 that was discussed here recently. I would have thought that AI could pick up on the fact that the CC Mint wasn't yet operational in that year.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think that eBay will end a coin listing after it gets a certain number of complaints. Not sure what that number is though.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think so too. I've received the AI blather and yet found the listing down within minutes.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Notes on this brown, stiff paper, often called "parchment" (a misnomer), are copies made with an "antiqued" finish and are completely unlike the originals. The other definitive giveaway is the same black ink used to print the notes is also used to print the signatures. Very rarely, if ever, do written portions of genuine notes look the same (color) as the printed parts.
Yes, AI should be able to spot something like this. Perhaps it found enough 1845-CCs (counterfeits) while searching so as to not identify it as a non-existent date and MM combination. How does AI correctly identify the list of what genuine coins exist and what doesn't? How does it tell which source is accurate? Obviously, there's a problem here.
Someone needs to program trust "U.S. Mint Reports" and not Temu or figure out how to otherwise get AI to distinguish reliable information from false information.
It might help to message the seller themselves if they have any integrity. However, if they don't, they might leave the listing up even after you tell them it is counterfeit. I had the same experience with AI scanning 3 days ago, and then messaged the seller (100% positive feedback), and it still hasn't been taken down.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/276530178785?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m43.l1123&mkcid=26&ch=osgood&euid=c19ba3ed6e044a5ca2557a9eb4c3d6c3&bu=44409820333&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20240630193349&segname=11051
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
I also reported the "1845-CC Dollar"... more than once... AFTER I had contacted the seller. I got a response right away from the seller who told me that they aren't familiar with coins and they'd pull the auction. The next day, the auction was still up so I contacted ebay. The first response was the same as what @MFeld posted... that AI "looked" into it and found no violation in ebay listing policy. The second follow up report I sent said this: We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. **This determination was made by a customer service agent.** So, this indicates to me that ebay does have human beings minding the store, they're just woefully untrained. I actually bid on that coin... $20... just to see what would happen. Just after I got the second message from ebay, the seller ended the auction and all bids were cancelled. No reason was given for ending the auction.
These are the auctions we catch and post to this Forum. I'm sure there are some that slip through the cracks and an unfortunate buyer is left to deal with the problem. As long as ebay is making money, they'll likely not be too aggressive in dealing with counterfeit coins. What is their incentive? Until it starts to hurt Ebay's bottom line, we will continue this downward spiral...
In the meantime... knowledge is power... and...
Caveat emptor!
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Counterfiets have always been and will always be a problem. All we can do is report them here and educate the forum populus. Sometimes informing the seller works and sometimes it don't. Most posters on this forum can pick out the phony-baloney sellers in an instant. However there is a proportion of people who woun't believe you no matter how much evidence you provide. As the saying goes "Knowledge is King" is extremely relevent to the coin collecting community.
Education costs you a lot of money sometimes. You can only police so far.
Great summary. Some claim that counterfeiting is the second oldest profession.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Did some research on this Rhode Island $3.00 note.
It is a replica sold by the museum gift shop.
A genuine note is red and black, not all black.
Also all the replicas have the number 2298 on it which this one has.
I will try to get it removed.
Do you have difficulty telling the real one from the copy?
No, not all replica RI $3 notes have serial #2298 as these have been made by different manufacturers and sold to different customers from many sources other than gift shops for over half a century and they are still being made and sold today. Most genuine notes are printed in all black, a few have red, too. And I already tried to get it removed. Maybe, as @PerryHall suggested it just needs a few more reports, but this isn't a good method for determining what is fake and what isn't.
The fact that the number is 2298 which is the same as all the replicas from the museum gift shop should be enough to get it removed regardless of colour.
Anyhow, let’s wait and see what happens.
If i search for Morgan dollars on eBay, most of the time the first 3 or 4 sponsored listings are blatantly obvious Chinese fakes. I think eBay has handed over a lot of day to day administrative tasks to AI software, and I'm not sure what it takes to break through and get an actual human to look at a report of the counterfeits.
Crutch Williams publishes the most extensive list of copies by serial number and he lists this note and serial number. If that were enough to get it pulled, then virtually all copies would be pulled as Crutches list is pretty comprehensive.
http://www.crutchwilliams.com/BogusCSA_RoTx.html
Heritage also has this useful page on their site.
https://currency.ha.com/ref/replica.zx
Shouldn't these notes have "COPY" or "Replica" somewhere on the margines?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Here is where I got my info from.
Looks the same as the posted replica to me.
https://www.ricurrency.com/2008/11/16/1780-3-dollar-bill-from-rhode-island/
AI does not make mistakes. It is always correct so you must accept its decision.
Do you mean just like all the Chinese counterfeit coins? Yes, all that were made since the passage of the Hobby Protection Act. But, like I said, copies are made everywhere and have been made for decades. Those made before the Hobby Protection Act are grandfathered but that's meaningless since there often isn't any way to distinguish when the copy was made.
I think that the word "COPY" must be on the note design itself and NOT in the margin, as the margin could then be trimmed off and the note sold without the required disclosure. Upham counterfeits, printed in the North during the Civil War were sold as souvenirs with the "Facsimile" notation in the bottom margin so that this notation COULD be trimmed off and the notes passed as genuine. Most are found today with the notation trimmed off for this reason.
Someone in Paper Money Forum reported this one to Ebay. AI says it's good. There shouldn't be much doubt on this one if a human were making a determination.
I know you say this in jest. But if we give it some thought... if it is true AI, that means it has to learn, just like we did through the years and continue to do so. Otherwise, if it just had everything already programmed in, it would not really be AI.
So, could be, AI is presently an 'infant'. Needs to learn as it goes, meanwhile expect many mistakes, errors, etc. Perhaps after awhile it will learn enough to be more useful for purposes such as counterfeit detection with coins, paper money, etc.
And, if AI needs to 'learn' to be able to be effective; then we would certainly be foolish to blindly accept any AI decisions at the present time, knowing they will likely be flawed. As we are seeing.
What if it learns too much and destroys us all?
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
What if an AI bot learned to collect coins for itself, calculating in metal prices, rarities, grades, and market trends? None of us would stand a chance.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
All could be very real possibilities. We are moving into unknown territory. Could destroy us all and keep all the coins to themselves!
^^THIS^^ I've given several presentations using AI (ChatGPT 3.5/4.0) in teaching graduate courses and among the greater academic and research community. Our Applications were mainly geared to using AI as a teaching/training *tool instead of the end-all. Remember when the handheld calculator (circa 1970s) was supposed to make us all stupid in math? No, it became just another tool to use for simple computations that freed up time to do other things... like more complex calculations! That said, AI is still just starting out and having significant "growing pains". Case in point... I'm writing a paper for a science journal and the References that AI keeps giving me are often obscure and many would be considered "secondary references" and not primary sources. This is a big red flag for me. But... as AI goes to a few more Conferences and gets more savvy with journal selection (as training any graduate student would need) it will inevitably get better. Just my 2c...
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I'm reminded of the first time that I saw and used an electronic calculator in Korvettes on Central Ave over 50 years ago. It had four functions and cost $99 back then. I entered "90 + 10" and the result that I got was "99". Sort of like AI today.
I’m so tired of eBay and the counterfeits, scammers, excessive fees and all the other nonsense. Really hope Numismy.com takes off and we can leave eBay in the rear view mirror. Hoping that it doesn’t fizzle out like my collect but time will tell.
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Here's a probable one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166853745485
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
Could just be harshly cleaned.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
No, that's looks genuine and it's a coin. That would take examination to confirm.
ALL brown parchment paper currency are copies and they are very easy to differentiate, yet Ebay hasn't managed to cull these out after 25+ years.
Some items, like an 1845CC trade dollar, do not need further scrutiny and need to be removed automatically. Non AI programs should be able to do that. Compare with list of coins that do exist, from a reliable source, like PCGS, and flag anything not on the list.
How could you tell anything from those photos?
Here's a definite. Fake coin, fake holder. Let's get rid of this one
https://www.ebay.com/itm/135139420023
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
From the same CN seller I have been documenting; no PCGS logo in the obv lower right corner, barcode doesn't scan and really awful "coin"...
First of all, the mintmark looks more like an O than a D. I also thought it odd that the reverse is quite worn down in only the area around the mint mark, and nowhere on the obverse. I thought that these may be signs of adding a mintmark and then artificially wearing down that area. I could be totally wrong however.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
mistakes AI not does make
correct is it must decision its accept you always so
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Reported. Detailed reason: "fake coin, fake holder".
@sellitstore
For the sake of argument, let us credit fleaBay with the best of intentions at removing all fakes prior to sale
You as an expert in this narrow field can easily identify the brown parchment paper currency as a fake. Another expert can easily identify an 1804 Dollar as fake. etc. Simple knowledge says the 1845CC Morgan is :poop:
But you do see the problem, right? You need 100s, 1000s of experts, and seeking their opinion slows down the listing of items for sale, which shows down the sales, which impacts your bottom line.
Far, far simpler to do nothing and wait for the expert(s) to tell you something is fake.
Even reviewing the reports from experts takes effort (as does differentiating between experts and random shrubs with axes to grind creating bogus reports).
Far, far simpler to reject all the reports and wait for buyers to make SNAD reports post-sale. There will be fewer of them after all, some people are just not smart enough to know they bought a fake.
It's all completely logical: In business school, they taught us that if you understand how somebody is compensated you can predict to several 9s accuracy how they will behave.
Prediction: fleaBay will continue to make it more difficult to report fraudulent listings and reports will continue to be ignored. It used to be a simple drop-down. Now you have to pick from a longer list and make several choices plus write a sentence to be ignored.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Well, they were very fast with the response-and claim that an actual agent looked at it. But if someone DID actually look at it, they got it wrong. This is worse than AI getting it wrong. They failed to spot this counterfeit and pull it. This is NOT an improvement-that's all I'm saying. The problem has persisted for 25+ years. Not a good record. That's part of the reason that I stopped selling there. Their lack of credibility has hurt their customer base. Some of our members here won't buy on Ebay and stick to more trusted sources.
Keep reporting it and post here. We can try to see if their determination is made by number of complaints rather than an examination of the listing in question.
Ebay is what it is but I would have hoped that it would become better over the years. There's room for improvement, in my opinion. I'm disappointed in their unwillingness or inability to solve the problem with fakes, or even improve it substantially.
It doesn't take an expert to spot a PCGS holder missing elements that assure it authenticity or take an expert to recognize a parchment paper copy of currency. Expert or AI the job isn't getting done with OBVIOUS fakes.
A decision was made on the listing you reported
**Hello sellitstore,
Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.
What happened:
**We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made by a customer service agent.****
If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.
Your reference ID:
2-182439387524
Here are the listings you reported that are included in this decision:
Item: 135139420023 1794 Flowing Hair 50C PCGS XF45 6051 Half Dollar
Thank you for being part of the eBay community.
Thanks,
eBay
Please don't reply to this message. It was sent from an address that doesn't accept incoming email.
The 1794 half was reported and removed...
So, yes, it seems that multiple reports are required. That's why their system is ineffective and inconsistent.
Almost a miracle nowadays. Thanks
Our society is dumbed down and divided. And corporate entities like to keep it that way.
HE>I
https://www.ebay.com/itm/296565141944
Report please.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
They have free returns.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
One or more of them has sold since I found the listing. It now shows "Last one" whereas it did not before. Also, here's another to report:
https://ebay.com/itm/204886013405
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
1923-S Standing Liberty Silver Quarter AU Standing Liberty Silver Quarter 1923 S
13 watched in the last 24 hours
fcn394
Item description from the seller
This 1919 S Standing Liberty Silver Quarter is a beautiful addition to any coin collection. With a business strike type and a fineness of 0.9, this coin was minted in San Francisco, United States. It features the iconic image of Standing Liberty and has a denomination of 25C. The coin's history is unknown, and it is ungraded. However, it is uncertified and made of silver. This is a great opportunity to own a piece of American history. Don't miss out on the chance to add this rare and unique coin to your collection.
1919-S Standing Liberty Silver Quarter
nngy_1993
reported
real intelligence has determined ebay's artificial intelligence has no threat of becoming sentient