@DCW said:
You'd have to enter a structure Illegally with the purpose to commit theft. I dont think he'd ever be charged with burglary after paying admission to get into a coin. Even with the theft component.
It was explained in a context that I won't go into that sometimes your actions make a nominally legal entry illegal.
You go to a multi-tenant building (so the lobby and hallways are open to the public 24/7), go up to the 2nd floor, and check to see if there are open doors. Up until you tested that first door, you arguably were legally in the building. You have no business relationship, no appointment, no reason to enter that office...
But I'm not a lawyer and I wasn't asking for advice for myself.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@lermish said:
This show has an ID check going in, and a camera along with armed guards at the entrance and throughout the show. Precautions were taken.
What good is the ID check if that process cannot solve this crime / immediately identify the thief? I still think it’s just a way to send me a mailer for upcoming shows and to sell my information to other coin companies. Just look at the Baltimore show and the heap of correspondence/spam you get from that “ID check” going in.
Smoke & mirrors security measures apparently don’t work. Pcgs or whoever is running this show and piecemealing security needs to step it up.
What effective, but practical solution do you advocate?
Security measures are not my forte, but there needs to be an action plan put together between the show and the security team so this does not happen again. What plan did heritage put in place when the purses got stolen in New York?
Unless each booth/table holder is extremely vigilant, I don’t see how any action plans between the show personnel and its security can prevent such occurrences. And once a crime has taken place, they can only do so much.
I don’t know specific details of the incident you asked about and even if I did, I don’t know that I’d be at liberty to disclose them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@lermish said:
This show has an ID check going in, and a camera along with armed guards at the entrance and throughout the show. Precautions were taken.
What good is the ID check if that process cannot solve this crime / immediately identify the thief? I still think it’s just a way to send me a mailer for upcoming shows and to sell my information to other coin companies. Just look at the Baltimore show and the heap of correspondence/spam you get from that “ID check” going in.
Smoke & mirrors security measures apparently don’t work. Pcgs or whoever is running this show and piecemealing security needs to step it up.
What effective, but practical solution do you advocate?
Security measures are not my forte, but there needs to be an action plan put together between the show and the security team so this does not happen again. What plan did heritage put in place when the purses got stolen in New York?
Unless each booth/table holder is extremely vigilant, I don’t see how any action plans between the show personnel and its security can prevent such occurrences. And once a crime has taken place, they can only do so much.
I don’t know specific details of the incident you asked about and even if I did, I don’t know that I’d be at liberty to disclose them.
If foolproof security existed ANYWHERE, there would be no thefts anywhere. It's not just coin shows. Thieves exist and they can bypass ANY security if they are motivated enough.
Posting and announcing that there are plain clothes officers on-site would be huge. And I mean real police, not laughable security guards who probably won’t act anyway. Would you get banged up or shot for $15/hr? I wouldn’t.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
As I understand it, the police are actively investigating this and have asked Bob not to give any more interviews, saying it somehow bungs up their investigation. I do kinda wonder if this open forum discussion has any detrimental effect 🤔
This whole thing happened while we were all blithely and obliviously going about our regular business, right under our noses. I heard about it almost right after it happened and was later treated to a video still of the suspect standing behind me as I sat the table three cases down. I never laid eyes on the guy directly.
Apparently when it happened, the other table attendants were helping other “customers” at the other end of the table, conveniently distracting those who would have otherwise been watching.
There was also the issue of the skincare booth setup right next door which had completely blacked out and walled in their booth space, creating an area next-door with compromised line of sight issues. Dealers complained before the theft, and the long drapes were subsequently removed after the theft, making a clear acknowledgment of the problem. As I understand it, convention rules stipulate that signs (or anything really) cannot block line of sight across the room.
I have personally felt that booths being set up at coín conventions that have nothing whatsoever to do with coins or the business of collectibles is a distraction at best and a security risk at the worst. And while I understand that booths must be sold so that shows may pay bills, rules must be followed and enforced. It has also been suggested that these types of vendors be confined to the periphery of the room where they can be enjoyed by attendees without interfering with the core marketplace.
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
Posting and announcing that there are plain clothes officers on-site would be huge. And I mean real police, not laughable security guards who probably won’t act anyway. Would you get banged up or shot for $15/hr? I wouldn’t.
There were multiple armed Long Beach police officers at the show. There’s only so much the police and private security can do. I don’t think any of us want the police to discharge their weapon at a crowded show.
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
Posting and announcing that there are plain clothes officers on-site would be huge. And I mean real police, not laughable security guards who probably won’t act anyway. Would you get banged up or shot for $15/hr? I wouldn’t.
Many of these security guards are off duty or retired police officers. Also, the minimum wage in CA is now $20 per hour and you can be sure they make more than minimum wage these days.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@1Bufffan said:
I guess that the "Coin Shows" all over the United States should start having a video of everyone who enters the >show followed up by name and address, it's ashamed how low people have gotten. after all the dealers are trying to >make a living and be robbed of their inventory by some low life is disgusting, less and less is being done to put >these people away.
With AI, face recognition, and a controlled entrance to the show (only 1 entrance, etc.) ...no reason for every single person entering the bourse to NOT be photographed.
@PerryHall said:
Many of these security guards are off duty or retired police officers. Also, the minimum wage in CA is now $20 per >hour and you can be sure they make more than minimum wage these days.
My club puts on an expo each year. A few security guards -- professionals and/or ex-cops -- runs a few thousand dollars for overnight when we lock down the bourse.
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
Posting and announcing that there are plain clothes officers on-site would be huge. And I mean real police, not laughable security guards who probably won’t act anyway. Would you get banged up or shot for $15/hr? I wouldn’t.
Many of these security guards are off duty or retired police officers. Also, the minimum wage in CA is now $20 per hour and you can be sure they make more than minimum wage these days.
That's only for fast food workers. CA minimum wage is $16 per hour.
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
Posting and announcing that there are plain clothes officers on-site would be huge. And I mean real police, not laughable security guards who probably won’t act anyway. Would you get banged up or shot for $15/hr? I wouldn’t.
There were multiple armed Long Beach police officers at the show. There’s only so much the police and private security can do. I don’t think any of us want the police to discharge their weapon at a crowded show.
Yes, I’m sure there were. But, there’s a complete and total difference between visible police and plain clothes police who are experts at blending in and looking like customers, but are vigilant watching the actions of people on-site.
For those that aren’t aware, generally the police on-site are there as part of a paid detail. They’re off-duty but in uniform and have all the usual police powers. They’re paid by the venue or the show management. Their purpose is to create a highly visible presence and deter crime. Rarely is a jurisdiction putting cops at such an event on the public’s dime as it’s a private event.
Plainclothes cops serve a whole different purpose. I’ve never in my life heard of a plainclothes paid detail, but every jurisdiction is different. I would expect though that given this high publicity the city/county WILL put in some plain clothes guys in next year.
As far as discharging firearms in a crowded venue, who said that? Because it sure wasn’t me.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
@renomedphys said:
As I understand it, the police are actively investigating this and have asked Bob not to give any more interviews, saying it somehow bungs up their investigation. I do kinda wonder if this open forum discussion has any detrimental effect 🤔
Forensics is trying to determine exactly what type of mustard he used to camouflage himself because they may be able to narrow down the geographic search area.
I don’t know the practicalities.
My scheme would be nanny cams (or fake ones) and signs that indicate that recording goes on.
Organize with the people around you to put the same signs and cameras on their tables to make it look like a tight monitoring system. I would have enough signs and fake cameras for my neighbors.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin show security issues without interjecting politics.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I imagine that nugget has already been melted down and is long gone. If the thief were smart, he would have added some scrap gold to change the weight and the fineness of the gold to make it impossible to identify that it came from that nugget. Also, that pic from the security camera is so poor that I doubt that it's very useful for identifying the perp. Cameras are a good idea but what happens during flu season when collectors show up wearing blue masks? Will they be denied entry?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin snow security issues without interjecting politics.
I'm not so sure. Look at the other thread about theft. There's a trend toward blaming government actions for failing to discourage or combat crime.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin snow security issues without interjecting politics.
I'm not so sure. Look at the other thread about theft. There's a trend toward blaming government actions for failing to discourage or combat crime.
The post to which he replied ("I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.")
stated:
"Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse."
Security at coin shows has nothing to do with politics, no matter how badly someone might wish (or try to make) it so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin snow security issues without interjecting politics.
I'm not so sure. Look at the other thread about theft. There's a trend toward blaming government actions for failing to discourage or combat crime.
The post to which he replied ("I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.")
stated:
"Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse."
Security at coin shows has nothing to do with politics, no matter how badly someone might wish (or try to make) it so.
I agree. But if you look at a lot of the comments, the problems are being traced to a (perception of a) general increase in crime.
The following of dealers from shows seems newer and maybe tech enabled. Shoplifting at coin shows is probably as old as coin shows. There's also no way to completely prevent it.
I also think that solutions are hard to suggest when we have no information on how the nugget was lifted. It's quite possible the crime was unrelated to show security: unlocked case, for example.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin snow security issues without interjecting politics.
I'm not so sure. Look at the other thread about theft. There's a trend toward blaming government actions for failing to discourage or combat crime.
The post to which he replied ("I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.")
stated:
"Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse."
Security at coin shows has nothing to do with politics, no matter how badly someone might wish (or try to make) it so.
I agree. But if you look at a lot of the comments, the problems are being traced to a (perception of a) general increase in crime.
The following of dealers from shows seems newer and maybe tech enabled. Shoplifting at coin shows is probably as old as coin shows. There's also no way to completely prevent it.
I also think that solutions are hard to suggest when we have no information on how the nugget was lifted. It's quite possible the crime was unrelated to show security: unlocked case, for example.
From what I've heard firsthand from the person whose security camera captured the incident, It wasn't an unlocked case, it was a defective one. Apparently, the thief was walking around testing cases until he found one where he could get the corner open and reach his hand in. The table staff were coincidentally all helping "customers" at the other end of the table.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin snow security issues without interjecting politics.
I'm not so sure. Look at the other thread about theft. There's a trend toward blaming government actions for failing to discourage or combat crime.
The post to which he replied ("I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.")
stated:
"Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse."
Security at coin shows has nothing to do with politics, no matter how badly someone might wish (or try to make) it so.
I agree. But if you look at a lot of the comments, the problems are being traced to a (perception of a) general increase in crime.
The following of dealers from shows seems newer and maybe tech enabled. Shoplifting at coin shows is probably as old as coin shows. There's also no way to completely prevent it.
I also think that solutions are hard to suggest when we have no information on how the nugget was lifted. It's quite possible the crime was unrelated to show security: unlocked case, for example.
From what I've heard firsthand from the person whose security camera captured the incident, It wasn't an unlocked case, it was a defective one. Apparently, the thief was walking around testing cases until he found one where he could get the corner open and reach his hand in. The table staff were coincidentally all helping "customers" at the other end of the table.
Thanks for the detail. To my point, you can't really blame coin show security for shoplifting. The dealer could have tightened his own security, of course.
Edited to add: and no, I don't want my photo taken on the way into the show, though you could do that.
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin snow security issues without interjecting politics.
I'm not so sure. Look at the other thread about theft. There's a trend toward blaming government actions for failing to discourage or combat crime.
The post to which he replied ("I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.")
stated:
"Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse."
Security at coin shows has nothing to do with politics, no matter how badly someone might wish (or try to make) it so.
Theft made the news here in Vegas. They showed the video of the thief lifting the case open and walking away. Defective case? Maybe, but the clip they showed didn't really show the guy doing much other than lifting it open.
@bigjpst said:
Theft made the news here in Vegas. They showed the video of the thief lifting the case open and walking away. Defective case? Maybe, but the clip they showed didn't really show the guy doing much other than lifting it open.
I was only going based on what I was told, perhaps Bob Campbell told Noah that the case was defective. Does he participate in this forum?
I know in a way you can't blame the dealer but on the flipside I think you have to be extremely vigilant. These thieves definetly target people.
I see several dealers at local shows with lots of gold coins. I hope they are carry a pistol locked and loaded.
I'm telling you this right now, if I had enough inventory I definetly would carry a gun.
I know it's of no use on the bourse but necessary otherwise.
I believe four or five armed guards should be at these bigger shows.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
@Morgan13 said:
I know in a way you can't blame the dealer but on the flipside I think you have to be extremely vigilant. These thieves definetly target people.
I see several dealers at local shows with lots of gold coins. I hope they are carry a pistol locked and loaded.
I'm telling you this right now, if I had enough inventory I definetly would carry a gun.
I know it's of no use on the bourse but necessary otherwise.
I believe four or five armed guards should be at these bigger shows.
The problem is a lot of the major shows are in Cali, pittsburgh, Chicago, not exactly carry friendly areas to fly to.
FUN is a different story, I hope that if I ever get tried it’s in Florida.
Cameras are of most use when trying to identify someone only after a crime has happened. Cases can break and are also subject to human error if someone forgets to lock them after opening. On site security is good, but what's the ratio of security officers to tables at a large show... not enough.
Thieves will take advantage of distracted dealers as it sounds happened here. High end dealers should consider having an extra person watching their tables whose sole job is to monitor the cases and people around them. If possible elevate them, even if only slightly, so they have a better view of the immediate area. They don't talk to customers, don't process payments, don't eat hot dogs... that person's only job is to watch everything that happens at and around their dealer's tables.
@bigjpst said:
Theft made the news here in Vegas. They showed the video of the thief lifting the case open and walking away. Defective case? Maybe, but the clip they showed didn't really show the guy doing much other than lifting it open.
I was only going based on what I was told, perhaps Bob Campbell told Noah that the case was defective. Does he participate in this forum?
When I used to set up at Long Beach, I definitely got my fair share of “defective” cases. Some of them, the locks could be bumped loose. We always either tried to fix them or replace them with staff before we filled with inventory. But I’m also not going to say I never left my cases unlocked for ease of access.
That's a very incriminating video. This thief must be brought to justice. I'm sorry, but an $80k anything has to be totally secured in every way possible.
edited to add: Thanks for sharing the video, and thanks to the videographers.
Now that I've seen the video, I for sure saw this trio at one point walking together while they were casing. I didn't think much of them at the time, assuming they were there to sell some raw gold like a bunch of other people in attendance.
Also, that is some amazing narration, impressive work @numismattack!
@crazyhounddog said:
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden
These days most answers are political and you’re right, it’s taboo here. I probably feel the same way you do.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
I am here, and thank you! I spent far too many hours today editing this (I'm still a YouTube newbie) but I hope it helps shine even more light on this nightmare situation.
I am here, and thank you! I spent far too many hours today editing this (I'm still a YouTube newbie) but I hope it helps shine even more light on this nightmare situation.
I am here, and thank you! I spent far too many hours today editing this (I'm still a YouTube newbie) but I hope it helps shine even more light on this nightmare situation.
Very interesting. Nicely done.
Quite a bold theft given how many people were nearby.
Holy Smokes! The thief walked right behind me while I was talking to Eric at Witter! Great video.
Bob told me he actually figured out the guy's name. He didn't say and I didn't ask, but I am encouraged that at least the police have more to go on.
And regarding the request by police to not openly discuss aspects of the theft, or give any more interviews, I am honestly confused by this. If anything I think Bob should make as much stink about this as possible, keeping the issue fresh and stinky in the public's eye. After all, high profile cases are the ones that actually GET SOLVED.
@renomedphys said:
Holy Smokes! The thief walked right behind me while I was talking to Eric at Witter! Great video.
Bob told me he actually figured out the guy's name. He didn't say and I didn't ask, but I am encouraged that at least the police have more to go on.
And regarding the request by police to not openly discuss aspects of the theft, or give any more interviews, I am honestly confused by this. If anything I think Bob should make as much stink about this as possible, keeping the issue fresh and stinky in the public's eye. After all, high profile cases are the ones that actually GET SOLVED.
Doesn't help if the perp flees. And if they melt the nugget or toss it out, I'm not sure you can guarantee a conviction just from that video as I'm not sure you can see the actual nugget. Publicity is not always helpful. I trust law enforcement.
@jmlanzaf said:
Doesn't help if the perp flees. And if they melt the nugget or toss it out, I'm not sure you can guarantee a conviction just from that video as I'm not sure you can see the actual nugget. Publicity is not always helpful. I trust law enforcement.
Agreed in general -- but I think in this case publicity helps. And I am 100% certain that I can see the nugget when he pulls it out of the case (I was staring at this footage for several hours today). But agreed - that doesn't guarantee a conviction if this is the ONLY evidence they have. But if they pick the guy up and perhaps get a/the pawn shop/refiner who he brought it to to testify, he's done for.
@jmlanzaf said:
And I am 100% certain that I can see the nugget when he pulls it out of the case (I was staring at this footage for several hours today).
I saw it too. At least my brain told me that his shoulder visibly dropped as he put his hand in the case:
Then he was holding something that appeared very bright in his hand for the next two frames:
In the next frame his hand is already in his pocket. Very fast indeed!
Great video an narrative. I guess this is proof that the flimsy locks that protect our valuables, cars and homes are only there to keep the honest people honest.
I'd think that if law enforcement wants to find this person they could with their comprehensive facial recognition software. Cornell U. has some top notch image enhancement technology, I've seen their work.
There should be a show manager to identify visitors to these shows with a high likelihood of being a potential risk; no real interaction with dealers, interest in numismatics, etc., standouts in terms of dress, suspicious "teams" of associates with similar modus operandi and give them the boot from the shows! If asked they could be told why, that there is just too much risk to permit possible suspects to mill around. Or questionable people could be escorted around and asked what their purpose is being there, what dealer were they looking for and walk them over. Or give them 5-10 minutes to do their actual business and then leave. That would also send a message to other unsavory characters that they are not welcome.
@renomedphys said:
Holy Smokes! The thief walked right behind me while I was talking to Eric at Witter! Great video.
Bob told me he actually figured out the guy's name. He didn't say and I didn't ask, but I am encouraged that at least the police have more to go on.
And regarding the request by police to not openly discuss aspects of the theft, or give any more interviews, I am honestly confused by this. If anything I think Bob should make as much stink about this as possible, keeping the issue fresh and stinky in the public's eye. After all, high profile cases are the ones that actually GET SOLVED.
Doesn't help if the perp flees. And if they melt the nugget or toss it out, I'm not sure you can guarantee a conviction just from that video as I'm not sure you can see the actual nugget. Publicity is not always helpful. I trust law enforcement.
I’m hoping the authorities have even better video analysis tools that can clearly show the theft with this footage.
I also guess he/they may have priors, as he appears to be an experienced thief.
Thursday at approximately 11:45 AM was what I was told that day
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Comments
It was explained in a context that I won't go into that sometimes your actions make a nominally legal entry illegal.
You go to a multi-tenant building (so the lobby and hallways are open to the public 24/7), go up to the 2nd floor, and check to see if there are open doors. Up until you tested that first door, you arguably were legally in the building. You have no business relationship, no appointment, no reason to enter that office...
But I'm not a lawyer and I wasn't asking for advice for myself.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Unless each booth/table holder is extremely vigilant, I don’t see how any action plans between the show personnel and its security can prevent such occurrences. And once a crime has taken place, they can only do so much.
I don’t know specific details of the incident you asked about and even if I did, I don’t know that I’d be at liberty to disclose them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If foolproof security existed ANYWHERE, there would be no thefts anywhere. It's not just coin shows. Thieves exist and they can bypass ANY security if they are motivated enough.
Posting and announcing that there are plain clothes officers on-site would be huge. And I mean real police, not laughable security guards who probably won’t act anyway. Would you get banged up or shot for $15/hr? I wouldn’t.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
As I understand it, the police are actively investigating this and have asked Bob not to give any more interviews, saying it somehow bungs up their investigation. I do kinda wonder if this open forum discussion has any detrimental effect 🤔
This whole thing happened while we were all blithely and obliviously going about our regular business, right under our noses. I heard about it almost right after it happened and was later treated to a video still of the suspect standing behind me as I sat the table three cases down. I never laid eyes on the guy directly.
Apparently when it happened, the other table attendants were helping other “customers” at the other end of the table, conveniently distracting those who would have otherwise been watching.
There was also the issue of the skincare booth setup right next door which had completely blacked out and walled in their booth space, creating an area next-door with compromised line of sight issues. Dealers complained before the theft, and the long drapes were subsequently removed after the theft, making a clear acknowledgment of the problem. As I understand it, convention rules stipulate that signs (or anything really) cannot block line of sight across the room.
I have personally felt that booths being set up at coín conventions that have nothing whatsoever to do with coins or the business of collectibles is a distraction at best and a security risk at the worst. And while I understand that booths must be sold so that shows may pay bills, rules must be followed and enforced. It has also been suggested that these types of vendors be confined to the periphery of the room where they can be enjoyed by attendees without interfering with the core marketplace.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
There were multiple armed Long Beach police officers at the show. There’s only so much the police and private security can do. I don’t think any of us want the police to discharge their weapon at a crowded show.
Many of these security guards are off duty or retired police officers. Also, the minimum wage in CA is now $20 per hour and you can be sure they make more than minimum wage these days.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
With AI, face recognition, and a controlled entrance to the show (only 1 entrance, etc.) ...no reason for every single person entering the bourse to NOT be photographed.
My club puts on an expo each year. A few security guards -- professionals and/or ex-cops -- runs a few thousand dollars for overnight when we lock down the bourse.
That's only for fast food workers. CA minimum wage is $16 per hour.
Yes, I’m sure there were. But, there’s a complete and total difference between visible police and plain clothes police who are experts at blending in and looking like customers, but are vigilant watching the actions of people on-site.
For those that aren’t aware, generally the police on-site are there as part of a paid detail. They’re off-duty but in uniform and have all the usual police powers. They’re paid by the venue or the show management. Their purpose is to create a highly visible presence and deter crime. Rarely is a jurisdiction putting cops at such an event on the public’s dime as it’s a private event.
Plainclothes cops serve a whole different purpose. I’ve never in my life heard of a plainclothes paid detail, but every jurisdiction is different. I would expect though that given this high publicity the city/county WILL put in some plain clothes guys in next year.
As far as discharging firearms in a crowded venue, who said that? Because it sure wasn’t me.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse.
I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.
Mike
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Forensics is trying to determine exactly what type of mustard he used to camouflage himself because they may be able to narrow down the geographic search area.
I don’t know the practicalities.
My scheme would be nanny cams (or fake ones) and signs that indicate that recording goes on.
Organize with the people around you to put the same signs and cameras on their tables to make it look like a tight monitoring system. I would have enough signs and fake cameras for my neighbors.
I’d bet that you’re perfectly capable of addressing coin show security issues without interjecting politics.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I imagine that nugget has already been melted down and is long gone. If the thief were smart, he would have added some scrap gold to change the weight and the fineness of the gold to make it impossible to identify that it came from that nugget. Also, that pic from the security camera is so poor that I doubt that it's very useful for identifying the perp. Cameras are a good idea but what happens during flu season when collectors show up wearing blue masks? Will they be denied entry?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I'm not so sure. Look at the other thread about theft. There's a trend toward blaming government actions for failing to discourage or combat crime.
The post to which he replied ("I'd love to answer that and can easily but I would have to mention politics which is forbidden.")
stated:
"Some serious changes need to be made in the security sense of coin shows. I hate reading this kinda stuff, it turns my stomach. It’s nowhere near what it used to be out there and changes need to be made. It’s only going to get worse."
Security at coin shows has nothing to do with politics, no matter how badly someone might wish (or try to make) it so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree. But if you look at a lot of the comments, the problems are being traced to a (perception of a) general increase in crime.
The following of dealers from shows seems newer and maybe tech enabled. Shoplifting at coin shows is probably as old as coin shows. There's also no way to completely prevent it.
I also think that solutions are hard to suggest when we have no information on how the nugget was lifted. It's quite possible the crime was unrelated to show security: unlocked case, for example.
From what I've heard firsthand from the person whose security camera captured the incident, It wasn't an unlocked case, it was a defective one. Apparently, the thief was walking around testing cases until he found one where he could get the corner open and reach his hand in. The table staff were coincidentally all helping "customers" at the other end of the table.
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Thanks for the detail. To my point, you can't really blame coin show security for shoplifting. The dealer could have tightened his own security, of course.
Edited to add: and no, I don't want my photo taken on the way into the show, though you could do that.
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Theft made the news here in Vegas. They showed the video of the thief lifting the case open and walking away. Defective case? Maybe, but the clip they showed didn't really show the guy doing much other than lifting it open.
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I was only going based on what I was told, perhaps Bob Campbell told Noah that the case was defective. Does he participate in this forum?
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I know in a way you can't blame the dealer but on the flipside I think you have to be extremely vigilant. These thieves definetly target people.
I see several dealers at local shows with lots of gold coins. I hope they are carry a pistol locked and loaded.
I'm telling you this right now, if I had enough inventory I definetly would carry a gun.
I know it's of no use on the bourse but necessary otherwise.
I believe four or five armed guards should be at these bigger shows.
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The problem is a lot of the major shows are in Cali, pittsburgh, Chicago, not exactly carry friendly areas to fly to.
FUN is a different story, I hope that if I ever get tried it’s in Florida.
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Cameras are of most use when trying to identify someone only after a crime has happened. Cases can break and are also subject to human error if someone forgets to lock them after opening. On site security is good, but what's the ratio of security officers to tables at a large show... not enough.
Thieves will take advantage of distracted dealers as it sounds happened here. High end dealers should consider having an extra person watching their tables whose sole job is to monitor the cases and people around them. If possible elevate them, even if only slightly, so they have a better view of the immediate area. They don't talk to customers, don't process payments, don't eat hot dogs... that person's only job is to watch everything that happens at and around their dealer's tables.
When I used to set up at Long Beach, I definitely got my fair share of “defective” cases. Some of them, the locks could be bumped loose. We always either tried to fix them or replace them with staff before we filled with inventory. But I’m also not going to say I never left my cases unlocked for ease of access.
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Here’s the live footage with a breakdown from Noah. He captured the whole thing.
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Outstanding video and narration. You might’ve inadvertently created the biggest piece of evidence this case will see. Thanks for being vigilant!
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
That's a very incriminating video. This thief must be brought to justice. I'm sorry, but an $80k anything has to be totally secured in every way possible.
edited to add: Thanks for sharing the video, and thanks to the videographers.
So it is actually a crew and not just an individual. Hopefully they will be able to identify at least one of the crew from the video.
Noah created the video, I’m sure he handed it over to the authorities as well.
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Noah, if you’re out there - you’re awesome, dude!
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Now that I've seen the video, I for sure saw this trio at one point walking together while they were casing. I didn't think much of them at the time, assuming they were there to sell some raw gold like a bunch of other people in attendance.
Also, that is some amazing narration, impressive work @numismattack!
These days most answers are political and you’re right, it’s taboo here. I probably feel the same way you do.
I am here, and thank you! I spent far too many hours today editing this (I'm still a YouTube newbie) but I hope it helps shine even more light on this nightmare situation.
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Well done!!
Very interesting. Nicely done.
Quite a bold theft given how many people were nearby.
Holy Smokes! The thief walked right behind me while I was talking to Eric at Witter! Great video.
Bob told me he actually figured out the guy's name. He didn't say and I didn't ask, but I am encouraged that at least the police have more to go on.
And regarding the request by police to not openly discuss aspects of the theft, or give any more interviews, I am honestly confused by this. If anything I think Bob should make as much stink about this as possible, keeping the issue fresh and stinky in the public's eye. After all, high profile cases are the ones that actually GET SOLVED.
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Matt’s Mattes
Doesn't help if the perp flees. And if they melt the nugget or toss it out, I'm not sure you can guarantee a conviction just from that video as I'm not sure you can see the actual nugget. Publicity is not always helpful. I trust law enforcement.
Agreed in general -- but I think in this case publicity helps. And I am 100% certain that I can see the nugget when he pulls it out of the case (I was staring at this footage for several hours today). But agreed - that doesn't guarantee a conviction if this is the ONLY evidence they have. But if they pick the guy up and perhaps get a/the pawn shop/refiner who he brought it to to testify, he's done for.
Rarity7 (née Numismattack Trading)
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web: rarity7.com (coming very soon...)
I saw it too. At least my brain told me that his shoulder visibly dropped as he put his hand in the case:
Then he was holding something that appeared very bright in his hand for the next two frames:
In the next frame his hand is already in his pocket. Very fast indeed!
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Matt’s Mattes
Great video an narrative. I guess this is proof that the flimsy locks that protect our valuables, cars and homes are only there to keep the honest people honest.
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I'd think that if law enforcement wants to find this person they could with their comprehensive facial recognition software. Cornell U. has some top notch image enhancement technology, I've seen their work.
There should be a show manager to identify visitors to these shows with a high likelihood of being a potential risk; no real interaction with dealers, interest in numismatics, etc., standouts in terms of dress, suspicious "teams" of associates with similar modus operandi and give them the boot from the shows! If asked they could be told why, that there is just too much risk to permit possible suspects to mill around. Or questionable people could be escorted around and asked what their purpose is being there, what dealer were they looking for and walk them over. Or give them 5-10 minutes to do their actual business and then leave. That would also send a message to other unsavory characters that they are not welcome.
I’m hoping the authorities have even better video analysis tools that can clearly show the theft with this footage.
I also guess he/they may have priors, as he appears to be an experienced thief.
I tried to look at the posts here but couldn't find it but I was wondering which day this happened. I'm curious.
Great video, BTW.
jom
Thursday at approximately 11:45 AM was what I was told that day
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I feel sorry for the coin dealer but...
This thread has almost 100 comments and over 3,000 view.
We all love a good crime heist story and this one is tops.
Someone steals a $100,000 item in front of dozens of witnesses with multiple cameras recording the theft.
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