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I didn't see this coming...
U1chicago
Posts: 5,764 ✭✭✭✭✭
I liked the color and the coin but figured about $450 all-in was as much as it was worth.
I didn't see the upgrade coming...if I had, I would have bid more! 
Congrats to the seller!
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1506069/1969-D-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-66-Toned
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1585914/1969-D-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-67-Toned
TrueView while it was a 66:
TrueView as a 67+:
19
Comments
Looks way over graded at 66. The chatter/hits on the reverse shield looks like a 62 or 63 to me. If I'd sent it in I'd have been lucky to get a 65!
Since when do 66 or 67+ have obvious fingerprints?
I figured the 66 grade was already market graded (technical 64/65 bumped for color).
It blends in relatively well.
And I don't think fingerprints necessarily prevent a high grade.
They should. I'm not a fan of fingerprints on coins.
Do the finger prints have traceable DNA?....asking for a friend.
I'm not a fan of color. Should I expect them to downgrade coins for color?
Justin vetted the coin for me this past week, wasn’t a fan of it and so I paid no attention to it from there.
But, what I find fascinating is the speed in which the winning bidder of the MS66 January auction upgraded the coin by THREE LEVELS and then consigned it and sold it all by May!! That’s incredible!!
My timeline may have reasonably been getting the MS66+ upgrade by early March, possibly getting the second MS67 upgrade by May or June and possibly getting the third upgrade by July or NEVER! lol. Let alone then consigning it and getting it sold quickly too! I tip my hat to the winning bidder of that January auction who literally got all of that done in 90-120 days!! WOW!! I would pay for a business efficiency seminar put on by this guy and bring my team to it!!
Wondercoin.
It certainly was impressive! It must have been sent to PCGS fairly soon after that January auction and received the 67+ on the first try (unless it went through express a few times).
Now how many tries will I need to push my 65 up...68 is top pop for the date, so I'll need plenty of luck!
Makes me wonder who resubmitted the coin for the 1 plus upgrade?
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Couldn't he have submitted it raw and gotten the upgrade in one move?
U1Chicago. Great coin but mark on neck may preclude a super grade - yes? That MS68 example was a fairly flawless white coin as I recall when I was offered the coin a few decades ago.
Wondercoin
‘’Couldn't he have submitted it raw and gotten the upgrade in one move?’’
Absolutely possible. Where do I pay the admission to the seminar!! 😉
Wondercoin
I think MS 65 is about right on mine (I bought it for the color and not the grade). But then I figured MS 66 was about right for the coin that turned 67+ so anything is possible!
As far as the top pop, yes PCGS Coin Facts shows it as a flawless blast white coin:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1966-50c/6709/65
I can't unsee that fingerprint
Yup. First thing I'd see every time I looked at it.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
What are you implying?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
So which grade is wrong?
Collector, occasional seller
The very mushy strike on the reverse around UNUM bothers me more than the fingerprint. I’m barely qualified to venture a comment, but the reverse sure seems subpar for a 67+,
I guess gradeflation is alive and well,
I would imagine that the submitter who got the MS66 is the only one not happy.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I remember there was an MS69 in the POP reports for the longest time. It was then taken out of the POP reports and a "new" SMS was added.
Am I recalling that correctly?
peacockcoins
I also agree the reeding marks in the obverse right field would keep me from even attempting an upgrade from MS66.
The reverse shield isn't doing the coin any favors either.
peacockcoins
Gotta love show/event grading.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Someone has some "inside baseball" information. . .
peacockcoins
Not really. Just more likely to get upgrades by cracking out and then submitting at shows and grading events rather than submitting directly.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I wasn't aware, so I still learned something within this thread and I thank you.
peacockcoins
No problem. I think it has something to do with simply increasing variance by catching graders when they're out of their most comfortable, normal environment. They're not really looser or tighter on the whole, they're just more variable at those events, and taking advantage of the human factor in grading is how these things happen.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I think you are making a joke. What each of us like or don't like has no effect on a TPGS or the coin market and you know that. IMO, if the color were removed from that coin it would go into a dealer's melt bucket!
He/she has a great eye for value. Either he/she paid a lot of $ubmission fee$ or he/she is an "Insider."
Kudos to whoever saw an upgrade potential and risked all the submission fees and postage! With the chatter, I assumed it was already maxed out at MS66. I guess you can never underestimate the color bump!
That’s a little harsh, but I could see it in a cardboard 2x2 for less than $10.
I don't like the fingerprint on the obverse. Hard pass.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
It probably is harsh to many collectors. I work part time at a coin shop. When an untoned coin in this condition comes in I put it in the 40% bucket to sell for melt. Who has time to fool with this junk?*** That's why color is so important. It allows my boss and others to "give the collectors what they want."
***Btw, I realize that my "junk" may be someone's treasure.
I had heard the show grading rumors and gave it a try over the course of two shows in 2022. This is a small sample size of 10 coins (5 at each show). From my experiences, the results aren't good enough to conclude that show grading is the answer but they do suggest one can get lucky at times (although I would say the same about normal submissions too).
From the 10 coins submitted (all were cracked from PCGS or NGC holders and all were toners):
~5 returned with the same grade
~2 downgraded (64 to 63 and 63 to 62)
~3 upgraded (61 to 63, 64 to 64+, and 63 to 65)
...the 63 to 65 upgrade was the best result followed by the 61 to 63 (price guide jumps were minimal but toning premium jumps were solid)
My first reaction was also that this was an event or show graded coin. No matter how much PCGS attempts to make it the same for their graders, they simply can't when things are done off-site. In my experience as a scientist any deviation from protocol, no matter how minor, is likely to generate outsized differences in results.
I don't have an issue with the reeding marks in the right obverse field and don't have an issue with the coin in an MS66 holder. If this were my coin I would have cracked it out, submitted it raw, placed it in a one-coin show special invoice and waited for the results. If I didn't like the results it would simply be rinse and repeat.
However, I do wonder about what appears to perhaps be green schmutz on the base of JFK's neck near "WE"...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
That will come right off. A dealer is teaching me how to get coins ready for sale. I have done a lot of reading about cleaning coins and now I get to do hands-on stuff. I'm not yet ready for the big time.
It might "come right off," but this coin's value is in the plastic that is surrounding it. That is coincidentally, what is also preventing the schmutz from being removed.
You'd have to send it in for conservation, and I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@DelawareDoons said: Just more likely to get upgrades by cracking out and then submitting at shows and grading events rather than submitting directly.
This is more anecdotal than scientific. I have heard it but never seen any data which even remotely confirms it.
That is what I was saying when I provided my small sample of data.
I have seen some people show examples of big upgrades at show grading but they rarely mention how many attempts it took and how many other coins did not upgrade. They might have had the same upgrade sending the normal way multiple times. The only proven benefit with show grading is that you get results much quicker and do not have to deal with the mail.
I guess gradeflation is alive a well. If coins were graded now as they did 20-30 years ago, the TPG services would no longer be grading classic coins as many times as they do now. I know some half dollars that were graded over 20 times to get to the next grade or 2.
Not a fair comparison. Color is a natural occurring phenomena that can enhance the beauty of a coin, while a fingerprint is due to careless handling of a coin by some klutz that always detracts. As an experienced collector how can you make such an absurd statement
The reverse strike is weak. The obverse appears stronger. I don’t see the net anywhere near a 67+. To add 2-3 points for color just ain’t right.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I was responding to a post. Read the post I responded to and it will be clear.
Would you like to argue over "natural"? Album toning isn't "natural " as far as I'm concerned but that's a different argument.
You are missing the point of my post. Any individual's preference should not determine the global standards. The post I responded to did NOT say that fingerprints are against standard. He said they "should" be because HE doesn't like them.
Too bad CAC doesn’t review stuff like this…
I have, and on one occasion the results were a one point upgrade over two show submissions vs multiple regular submissions to no avail. I'm not saying that my experience with one coin proves anything one way or another, just providing you with one real world data point.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
67+. I'm glad I don't play at the deep end of the pool.
Serious question, does anyone here feel like the person that submitted before the last guy got a little hosed?
Martin
Going just by the information that we have been provided? No.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson