My first post-Phil Trueviews . . New Photos added 6/2 . . 6/10 - PCGS Response, 7/14 Update
Connecticoin
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I had hopes that these would be better than some recent photos discussed here, but overall, they are disappointing. The cent photos are ok but the luster on the 55DD does not show well. The buffalo nickels appear over-exposed, and the 37-D 3 leg is too yellow. The gold coins look ok but the color looks “off”. The obverse of the PL Morgan does indeed have a lot of yellow but this is “too yellow”. Overall it appears they still have exposure and white balance issues.
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Nice coins.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
The problem with "glam" photos is every photographer has a different definition of "glam".
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Excellent subject matter for the photographer to work with but the white balance looks off. FWIW... the gold looks nice. I wonder if they're using an Auto setting for exposure. Copper is difficult to image regardless and getting mint luster to show up is definitely a task...
Beautiful 3-legger BTW...
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That’s a great group of coins you have! They still seem to show well in your post.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
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Sigh…
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I find washed out photos to be worthless.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The human eye is superior to any technological device. If I want a slabbed coin, and I have 547 of them, I will buy them and take the risk of relying on an image, usually taken by the seller. I have return two or three coins in the last five years, and never once sent a coin in for grading. For what I collect, and the reasons I collect, sending coins in for grading is neither justifiable nor productive. Besides, there are already more than enough complaint threads about the process.
Great coins.
Great coins but the images still are sub-par unfortunately.
Collector
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Love the coins, but they ain't Phil's.
My brother is a professional photographer and years ago he hired a "new" photographer for his business. The guys pics were always unusable and yet the guy had a wonderful resume. Turns out he was color blind slightly ,and it didn't work out. His photos were just like these, white balance off and color off. Can't comment on luster as he didn't do coins.
bob
TV's were the envy of the industry. Drove a lot of business. These new one's look positively primitive.....It's a shame.
You could always consign them to GC and get some amazing photos. Just make sure you are the winning bidder so you get them back
Wow. That's. Just. Bad.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Just a thought - maybe Phil can go consult with PCGS on an hourly basis (at a generous rate/hr.) to direct their current photog staff on what they need to do to fix this. Some tips on how to consistently tweak the exposure and white balance from coin to coin could do it. GC is a client of, not a competitor to, PCGS so I would think they could make this happen (if the parties involved were willing).
I’m thinking that GreatPhoto is a competitor to TrueView Photo. If you notice, even in the PCGS Market Report Magazine, the author always credits any TrueView image used in an article prefaced with “Courtesy of TrueView Photo.”
I think the issue is a bit deeper than that. From what I’ve seen, it appears that PCGS is trying to make this an automated process with as little human involvement as possible. That logic is at odds with what it takes to take quality coin photos, and if I had to guess I’d say there’s budget restraints implemented by the powers that be.
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That (an automated process) seems to fit with getting through the severe backlog of coins for imaging they had a year or two ago. I recall imaging was the hold up in getting submissions back before the Pandemic. Imaging added several weeks to the turn around time, but I was pleasantly surprised by the TVs I got... fast forward to now... and I'm reluctantly on the fence for getting TVs with my summer submissions.
Thanks for sharing...
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I agree w/ DeplorableDan. I'm afraid that this is now what the TrueView product has become. I don't expect anything to change.
TBD
If we buy a coin with a new TrueView, is there a way for us to request it be removed from the certification page so it won't hurt the resale price?
Does anyone know if PCGS will do that?
Coin Photographer.
I'm sure if you say 'No TrueView images please' in the Comments section. they will honor your request.
edited to add: I just realized I did not answer your question. I would send them a PCGS Support Form. The last one I did got a reply in 90 minutes.
PCGS Support Form
Are the “whale” dealers and collectors going to be ok with this? Would @tradedollarnut want his (when he owned them) 1885 Trade Dollar or 1794 SP66 Dollar going to Trueview now? For the “express” and up tier alone I would think they would need quality photos to stay competitive. Maybe that is being done already, I have not looked through any recent “rarity” Trueviews.
Your coins are great, the photos are terrible, sorry that you paid for a substandard product.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Awesome coins, but -no offense to the photgrapher- I think my iPhone could shoot better images.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
This is a recent purchase from The Penny Lady. The coin looks nothing like the Truview I am assuming it is a newer photo.
This is how I view the current PCGS TrueView process-
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Well that does get to the maybe what the heart of the issue is. Are the photos supposed to be glam or are they supposed to be True so it looks realistic and once can see every detail (good or bad)? "True" in trueview indicates the former.
Of course I recognize that the older photos used to be better though.
I would argue that us customers need to start rejecting the substandard product. The problem I (and probably most collectors) would have is giving an objective, undisputable objection to the photos to customer service other than "the pictures suck" that can't be dismissed as a matter of personal preference. I think if we can do that, PCGS will re-take the photos for free.
They never said they were "true" to life.
https://www.pcgs.com/trueview
It's marketing puffery - this chariot was only driven to the temple on feast days by a little old Roman lady.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I don't know if I'd call myself a "whale" but I've submitted several 6 figure coins that resulted in awful truviews, and to answer your question, NO. I was not ok with it. I crossed my slug over from NGC which carries a 1% fee, that single coin cost me around $1300 to cross over and I got a worthless true view. Like you say, you'd think they could at least TRY for coins submitted under Express, Walkthrough, or Rarities, at shows nonetheless.
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What makes your experience even worse is that the PCGS TV image "follows" the coin around when/if you attempt to sell it, no matter how many additional, quality images you may have of the coin from other sources. As such, folks who type in the cert number will get the substandard PCGS image and may very well use it to estimate a bid level for your coin(s).
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
And PCGS will keep doing it unless and until it starts costing them with do-overs.
Problem: TrueViews are unacceptable.
Solution: Hire Thomas Bush Numismatic Photography.
peacockcoins
These remind me of my photos. Well, my photos from around 18 years ago, give or take. If I took these photos today I would not show them to my customer.
Two words: Not good.
Dave
They could get a bunch of gifted photographer members here, set up some FEMA trailers for housing and get their operation straightened out.
Mine are currently being imaged sigh...
is it possible to adjust the white balance afterwards so they look a little better or is it lipstick on a pig?
These are, IMO, too far gone. They're washed out and there's really no way to fix that except retaking the image.
Coin Photographer.
I'd bet tossing a quick contrast correction in photoshop would fix a lot of the problems. I used to have the worst luck trying to photograph copper but when I updated my lighting setup, it got a LOT easier. I agree, mint luster can be tough to image as well.
Lighting and camera settings make all the difference in the world! Those photos are just awful. TruView used to be a standard bearer of coin photography. It's sad how bad they've gotten.
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It is my understanding that it wasn’t just Phil but possibly another senior photographer also left about the same time as Phil. If true, that’s a large loss of talent all at one time. We were spoiled while Phil was there.
As much as we collect coins in this digital age, we are equally collectors of photos! Especially when they were as good as Phil’s and since we have registries and showcases etcetera.
I’m a poor, small time, collector from time to time. In the last year or so, I have shown coins to people in hand and they have loved the coins. But then they pull up the true view and it does not meet their standards! I have lost sales, not because of the coin quality but because of the photo quality. People do not want that photo to represent their coin in the registry or showcase. If I have been impacted by this, you know it is impacting full time dealers and auctions.
As much as we may be coin collectors, we are equally photo collectors, and a lot of people aren’t talking about this or how it’s impacting markets.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I would bet that PCGS will not re-take photos for free.
That is the easy part, but as Tom himself wrote the PCGS photos are tied to that coin like an anchor. The only way to lose those substandard TV photos is to have the coins put into new holders with new cert numbers.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Even if you can identify object technical shortcomings with the photos? And it might not even take that if you can send your TV to them along side a comparable coin TV that looks excellent so that it's obvious. It really helps if you can "speak photographer" but unfortunately I cannot.
I know PCGS CS can be tight sometimes but I've also had several experiences with them trying hard to make me happy. I think you can get it done with the right approach, but that will only happen if someone tries.
When I did complain about some of my TVs a few months ago, they actually swapped out the photos with a second set they had taken which were much better. So there's that possibility too.
This is good news for CAC grading company.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I'd almost want to consign nice photographic coins to GC and then buy the coin back and thus have a nice picture.
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You are speaking about small scale, since Phil left how many TV's do you think PCGS photo department has imaged, several thousand? Maybe ten thousand? I have no idea but I'm sure it is a large number. And certainly not everyone that has paid for and gotten a TV is unhappy with them. But lets say that 1,000 TV's are asked to be reimaged due to poor quality, that is a significant amount of resources and payroll PCGS would be committing to, and while I'm no expert companies that are managed by Wall Street firms have in my experience been very sensitive to bottom line impacts.
But lets say that PCGS does agree that 1,000 TV's need to be redone, do you also expect them to cover the two way shipping costs as well which only increases the bottom line impact. I don't even see them agreeing to the need to reimage the coins much less absorbing the shipping costs as well. So that cost, and the risk of loss during the shipping, is on the owner of the coins, and considering a least one member has stated he has sent several 6 figure coins in both the cost and the risk are important.
And as the owner of the coin what happens if you do have your coin reimaged and the new images are just as poor quality, then what. It's not like the TV's seem to be improving over time, if anything they seem to be getting worse. So now you have added expense, time, and frustration for both sides with similar results, not sure that is going to solve much.
One, two, ten photos maybe, but I just don't see it on the scale we are seeing here. I don't see any advantage to PCGS under Wall Street management to open that can of worms, better to not address the issue and keep the monies rolling in. That seems to be the way of things today, if you ignore or refute the problem then it doesn't exist or it will just go away, like the US debt issues.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
PCGS should send all of their photographers to do the ANA photography course, they clearly don't even have the basics (grey card, white balance, don't overexpose) down.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
You know there is a cost for not so good photos. Less revenue.
I was not envisioning redoing 1000's of pictures. My vision is that if they got 5-10 complaints per month (probably on average 10 coins per complaint) and redid those photos it would or should register in their metrics and they would do something about it. Otherwise if we say and do nothing management assumes their customers are all happy. Again, I think there's details in what I said that are being glossed over. If you can provide OBJECTIVE criticism about real identifiable _defects _in the pictures, I think PCGS will make it right. If you just tell them your photos suck and you don't like them, then I wouldn't expect anything.
And therein lies the problem. Other than "the photos aren't as good as we know they can be," what are the definable characteristics of OP's photos that we can complain about that any experienced photographer would immediately identify as a defect? focus? exposure? Lighting? Balance? f-stop? I only barely know these terms and I don't know how to apply or judge them correctly.
The problem is, myself included, if my return submissions offered the above Trueviews I am not complaining to PCGS. The time and hassle of doing so is now time wasted and effort spent.
It's like going to a restuarant you are not happy with. You kind of don't go as often or stop going all together without necessarily leaving a Yelp review.
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