Rarity is one consideration, but demand is just as, if not far more important.
I have a Kitt and Nevis $100 gold proof with only 15 (that's FIFTEEN) ever minted. I can't easily get full melt value for it much less any numismatic premium.
@7Jaguars said:
Umm, the coin I listed would now likely go for significantly in excess of 20k USD and not the same sort of coin - again the antithesis of the OP coin.
Not only that got the looks. Series is on fire judging by most recent auction results.
I don’t know if you were replying to me or another poster. Regardless, in your earlier post you wrote
“Here is a toner that is by far the finest known and only graded at hosts for 1/3 the price”. That would equate to $2400 and change. Now you’re throwing out a figure of more than $20,000.
Whatever the coin and the price, the market is still about supply and demand.
I’m sure that each of us thinks others overpay for their coins, just as they think we overpay for ours. Maybe we’re all right, but even if so, that’s OK.
Yes, I am throwing that number out because the original figure is what it cost and now what it has appreciated to - frankly it would be scary to pin a price on that because even double the 20k figure not out of the realm of possibility. A coin of a much superior category but that rarity, colour [of frankly more honest hues] can also be found; as opposed to very common dates with "eccentric" toning.
Otherwise I agree with the last part of your post.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Additionally, I worry that someday toners may fall out of favor, and the price will bottom out. There is also the concern of whether they are stable or not. Any environmental change in the surface could ruin their eye appeal.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
@Walkerfan said:
Additionally, I worry that someday toners may fall out of favor, and the price will bottom out. There is also the concern of whether they are stable or not. Any environmental change in the surface could ruin their eye appeal.
I’ve been hearing that since the 1980’s. But in your defense, “someday” covers more than four decades.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’ve learned a few things in my 65 years of circling the sun. One of them is that if you like something and have the money, go ahead and buy it since it may not be there the next time you go to buy it. And secondly, if YOU like it, that is ALL that matters. Everyone’s taste is different…and that is a good thing or a lot of people would be lonely in life…..😉
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
This one should be the Webster's version of Monster. I could see putting this house on this one and still sleeping soundly.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
This one should be the Webster's version of Monster. I could see putting this house on this one and still sleeping soundly.
Its a beauty for sure. I imagine even non toner fans could appreciate it. But putting the house on a common date Morgan in extremely high grade with Monster toning still has a ceiling. The only question is not being able to break the ceiling every time it appears for sale, sort of like trying to find a chair before the music stops
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
This one should be the Webster's version of Monster. I could see putting this house on this one and still sleeping soundly.
Its a beauty for sure. I imagine even non toner fans could appreciate it. But putting the house on a common date Morgan in extremely high grade with Monster toning still has a ceiling. The only question is not being able to break the ceiling every time it appears for sale, sort of like trying to find a chair before the music stops
I agree it's a gamble but I'm talking the "Coin House Money" what is somewhat expendable anyway and relatively matching in size. That coin stops the music!
I’ve learned a few things in my 65 years of circling the sun. One of them is that if you like something and have the money, go ahead and buy it since it may not be there the next time you go to buy it. And secondly, if YOU like it, that is ALL that matters. Everyone’s taste is different…and that is a good thing or a lot of people would be lonely in life…..😉
One of the things I’ve learned (in only 63 years) is that our knowledge, taste, interests and sense of value are constantly changing. Which means that we sometimes come to regret earlier purchases. So “if you like it” is not all that matters.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I’ve learned a few things in my 65 years of circling the sun. One of them is that if you like something and have the money, go ahead and buy it since it may not be there the next time you go to buy it. And secondly, if YOU like it, that is ALL that matters. Everyone’s taste is different…and that is a good thing or a lot of people would be lonely in life…..😉
One of the things I’ve learned (in only 63 years) is that our knowledge, taste and sense of value is constantly changing. Which means that we sometimes come to regret earlier purchases. So “if you like it” is not all that matters.
It is... until you stop liking it.
I don't have the constitution to go out on a limb like that. I'm a cheapskate at heart. But, in my 59 years, I've learned that regrets work both ways.
My biggest numismatic regret is not buying the Tibet Pick #2 plate note from the Krause auction 20 years ago. At the time it sold for $2500 and, though I could have scraped the money together, it was a lot of money to me then. It was an XF note.
I've only seen a couple VGish notes since then. It is a very rare note. The last one sold for over $10k. The note I passed on is now likely a $50k or higher note so I will never own one, even if I could find one because I still can't bring myself to put that much money in one note.
I've handled tens of thousands of coins and notes since then. I've probably viewed hundreds of thousands. I don't regret any of my purchases or any of my passes EXCEPT that one. And that regret has nothing to do with the current price and everything to do with the gaping hole in my collection that will likely forever be open.
@Walkerfan said:
Additionally, I worry that someday toners may fall out of favor, and the price will bottom out. There is also the concern of whether they are stable or not. Any environmental change in the surface could ruin their eye appeal.
I’ve been hearing that since the 1980’s. But in your defense, “someday” covers more than four decades.😉
That’s good to know. My oldest certified Walker was purchased in the mid to late 1990s. It was stored properly and hasn’t changed, at all, in almost 30 years. So, that validates your statement and thinking.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
I’ve learned a few things in my 65 years of circling the sun. One of them is that if you like something and have the money, go ahead and buy it since it may not be there the next time you go to buy it. And secondly, if YOU like it, that is ALL that matters. Everyone’s taste is different…and that is a good thing or a lot of people would be lonely in life…..😉
One of the things I’ve learned (in only 63 years) is that our knowledge, taste and sense of value is constantly changing. Which means that we sometimes come to regret earlier purchases. So “if you like it” is not all that matters.
It is... until you stop liking it.
I don't have the constitution to go out on a limb like that. I'm a cheapskate at heart. But, in my 59 years, I've learned that regrets work both ways.
My biggest numismatic regret is not buying the Tibet Pick #2 plate note from the Krause auction 20 years ago. At the time it sold for $2500 and, though I could have scraped the money together, it was a lot of money to me then. It was an XF note.
I've only seen a couple VGish notes since then. It is a very rare note. The last one sold for over $10k. The note I passed on is now likely a $50k or higher note so I will never own one, even if I could find one because I still can't bring myself to put that much money in one note.
I've handled tens of thousands of coins and notes since then. I've probably viewed hundreds of thousands. I don't regret any of my purchases or any of my passes EXCEPT that one. And that regret has nothing to do with the current price and everything to do with the gaping hole in my collection that will likely forever be open.
Great story and I'd love to see a pic of this note or one like it. All collectors who have been around for a while will have memories of "the one that got away".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
Amazing auction price. Really nice toner! Not a toner guy so clueless there on pricing. Congrats to the buyer - enjoy your coin. CDN CAC CPG on it $165. But on any given day with toners…..
When I think what that money would buy in PCGS MS 69/70 AGE or AGB…..
There is someone who posts here who sold a phenomenally toned super high grade 1880-S Morgan for multiples of what the green $10,000 81-S P64 $1 brought.
He might respond upon seeing this (or he might not).
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
It appears the Top St Gaudens collector just bought the #1 Registry set of MS State Quarters. No joke. So, give me a few great State quarters with that $20,000! 😜
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
Here's the real question: which would you rather return to the seller?
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
Here's the real question: which would you rather return to the seller?
The Toner Absolutely a matter of taste 👅, LOL. Keeping that gorgeous Saint Gaudens👍
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
The investment/collection discussion is a long and tortured path.
However, if looking for something to maintain value, a semi-unique toner may be a better option. Saints in 67 are very common. Nearly every single Saint and Morgan in every grade is ultra-common. So any rarities are condition rarities. What is a more rare condition than one of a kind, unique toning?
You made me smile. I usually just watch these toner discussions with interest and a chuckle here and there. I think 'BagBurn' may still hold the world toner price record . . . at least for Morgans. Your comment was spot on . . . . but I do have to comment . . . the single-sided blue-green toner posted several times above is an eye-catcher. The original posted coin . . . very nice as well.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
I never invest in coins. And what I would do isn't the issue. I don't want either one of those coins. But I'm not going to question the person who does.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
And that can include coins that are 100x or 1000x more expensive than this one.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
The investment/collection discussion is a long and tortured path.
However, if looking for something to maintain value, a semi-unique toner may be a better option. Saints in 67 are very common. Nearly every single Saint and Morgan in every grade is ultra-common. So any rarities are condition rarities. What is a more rare condition than one of a kind, unique toning?
Still I was referring to a better date Saint not a common one. or perhaps a 1934 S Peace Dollar in 66. I also believe the market is thin for toners and can wildly fluctuate depending on the auction and the demand for toners at any given time. Demand will mostly be solid and more predictable for a 1934 S dollar in gem condition.-
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
The investment/collection discussion is a long and tortured path.
However, if looking for something to maintain value, a semi-unique toner may be a better option. Saints in 67 are very common. Nearly every single Saint and Morgan in every grade is ultra-common. So any rarities are condition rarities. What is a more rare condition than one of a kind, unique toning?
Still I was referring to a better date Saint not a common one. or perhaps a 1934 S Peace Dollar in 66. I also believe the market is thin for toners and can wildly fluctuate depending on the auction and the demand for toners at any given time. Demand will mostly be solid and more predictable for a 1934 S dollar in gem condition.-
FUTURE demand for any coin isn't predictable. There have been whole decades where the price slid and whole decades where they increased. Long term investment is questionable.
But, again, the flaw is thinking that the buyer cares what the future value is. If you want to make money, you buy broad- based mutual funds. If you want to collect coins, you buy the things that give you pleasure.
And if you want to make friends, you don't question how other people choose to have fun.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
The investment/collection discussion is a long and tortured path.
However, if looking for something to maintain value, a semi-unique toner may be a better option. Saints in 67 are very common. Nearly every single Saint and Morgan in every grade is ultra-common. So any rarities are condition rarities. What is a more rare condition than one of a kind, unique toning?
Still I was referring to a better date Saint not a common one. or perhaps a 1934 S Peace Dollar in 66. I also believe the market is thin for toners and can wildly fluctuate depending on the auction and the demand for toners at any given time. Demand will mostly be solid and more predictable for a 1934 S dollar in gem condition.-
Everyone's definition can vary but IMO there are very few better date saints. The UHR, and 1933 qualify. And the 20-S, 21, 26-D, 29, 30-S, 31, 31-D, and 32 are better dates. But most of those don't even exist in 67. You might be able to get an ugly one in 65 for $100k for one or two of those dates. 66 and up start at several hundred thousand dollars. Proofs might be a touch cheaper at $50-75k?
Those are better dates. And I bet you the market for a $300k coin is an awful lot thinner than for a gorgeous (or not if you don't like it), one of a kind, $20k toner.
All of your other "better dates" have populations in the thousands or tens of thousands. I would be a lot more concerned about numismatic demand falling off for one of those coins. In fact, that exact thing has happened now with the run up in gold - numismatic premiums for Saints has plummeted. The numismatic premiums for toners seems robust given the existence of this thread.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
While I accept what you are saying, it's still pretty surprising. I wonder how much of it is the scene from MAD MEN where Roger Sterling tells Don Draper to go buy a Cadillac. Roger says, "Do you know how invigorating it is to go in and write a check for sixty-five hundred dollars, and not care?"
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
I think there’s truth to what you said but I think nobody likes to lose money on their coins, and would like their coins to hold or appreciate. I own a simple type set worth perhaps $2000 that I am probably going to keep lifetime and I still like to see my coins hold there value in case I do sell or trade any.!
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
I think there’s truth to what you said but I think nobody likes to lose money on their coins, and would like their coins to hold or appreciate. I own a simple type set worth perhaps $2000 that I am probably going to keep lifetime and I still like to see my coins hold there value in case I do sell or trade any.!
Clearly, you’re not among the group of collectors I was talking about. And you’re likely in a large majority. But that doesn’t mean others don’t have very different mindsets, even if you can’t (seem to) understand it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
I think there’s truth to what you said but I think nobody likes to lose money on their coins, and would like their coins to hold or appreciate. I own a simple type set worth perhaps $2000 that I am probably going to keep lifetime and I still like to see my coins hold there value in case I do sell or trade any.!
Clearly, you’re not among the group of collectors I was talking about. And you’re likely in a large majority. But that doesn’t mean others don’t have very different mindsets, even if you can’t (seem to) understand it.
Mark has it right here. I am not Simpson or Hansen or any number of other big collectors here but I would wager that I have more money in my collection than the vast majority of collectors.
If I sell a coin for any reason, I want the most back I can get but I don't really care if I lose hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of dollars on the resale of a coin. I don't view it as a "loss". Just like I wouldn't view airplane tickets or a new set of golf clubs or lift tickets or etc etc as a loss.
I think most people can understand your viewpoint about the the importance (to you) of your coins maintaining their value, whether we agree or not. I think that the other, contradictory viewpoint is easily understood as well, even if you don't agree or couldn't relate.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
I think there’s truth to what you said but I think nobody likes to lose money on their coins, and would like their coins to hold or appreciate. I own a simple type set worth perhaps $2000 that I am probably going to keep lifetime and I still like to see my coins hold there value in case I do sell or trade any.!
Clearly, you’re not among the group of collectors I was talking about. And you’re likely in a large majority. But that doesn’t mean others don’t have very different mindsets, even if you can’t (seem to) understand it.
Mark has it right here. I am not Simpson or Hansen or any number of other big collectors here but I would wager that I have more money in my collection than the vast majority of collectors.
If I sell a coin for any reason, I want the most back I can get but I don't really care if I lose hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of dollars on the resale of a coin. I don't view it as a "loss". Just like I wouldn't view airplane tickets or a new set of golf clubs or lift tickets or etc etc as a loss.
I think most people can understand your viewpoint about the the importance (to you) of your coins maintaining their value, whether we agree or not. I think that the other, contradictory viewpoint is easily understood as well, even if you don't agree or couldn't relate.
I pretty much understand your viewpoint. I am just saying I don’t worry either as I have so many years of viewing pleasure so that if my coins drop in half it’s not a big deal. Entertainment cost.
But I am just saying psychologically people still like to see their pride and joy coins hold or appreciate in value. It’s human nature I believe.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
I think there’s truth to what you said but I think nobody likes to lose money on their coins, and would like their coins to hold or appreciate. I own a simple type set worth perhaps $2000 that I am probably going to keep lifetime and I still like to see my coins hold there value in case I do sell or trade any.!
Clearly, you’re not among the group of collectors I was talking about. And you’re likely in a large majority. But that doesn’t mean others don’t have very different mindsets, even if you can’t (seem to) understand it.
Mark has it right here. I am not Simpson or Hansen or any number of other big collectors here but I would wager that I have more money in my collection than the vast majority of collectors.
If I sell a coin for any reason, I want the most back I can get but I don't really care if I lose hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of dollars on the resale of a coin. I don't view it as a "loss". Just like I wouldn't view airplane tickets or a new set of golf clubs or lift tickets or etc etc as a loss.
I think most people can understand your viewpoint about the the importance (to you) of your coins maintaining their value, whether we agree or not. I think that the other, contradictory viewpoint is easily understood as well, even if you don't agree or couldn't relate.
I pretty much understand your viewpoint. I am just saying I don’t worry either as I have so many years of viewing pleasure so that if my coins drop in half it’s not a big deal. Entertainment cost.
But I am just saying psychologically people still like to see their pride and joy coins hold or appreciate in value. It’s human nature I believe.
I have little idea of what my collection's current market value is. Somewhere between $10k and $100k would be my guess.
@Goldbully said:
Buyer will have to hold on to his winning coin for a decade before he sees a ROI.
There’s absolutely no way to know that. The buyer might never see a profit. On the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of coins get flipped by winning bidders who were laughed at for the prices they paid.
@Cuprinkor said:
I just checked GC's auction archives. Back in October 2021 there was a PCGS MS64 CAC 1881-S $1 that brought over $10,000(!!) including commission, obviously due to the color (all green).
Yes, that’s this one:
I own it now.
Awesome!
Do you have a name for it? It reminds me of Hopi Jewel from the Battle Creek Collection. Just realized the cert number starts with 1865!
Coin looks Garish. Some collectors have taste in their feet. I know I will get push back but some of these toners selling for ridiculous prices are so overdone in color they are cartoonish, way too much color. Also the market is thin to support such high prices at large book multiples. Not a good investment but okay for the collector who will pay any price to own a coin, his free choice even if foolish
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
I think there’s truth to what you said but I think nobody likes to lose money on their coins, and would like their coins to hold or appreciate. I own a simple type set worth perhaps $2000 that I am probably going to keep lifetime and I still like to see my coins hold there value in case I do sell or trade any.!
Clearly, you’re not among the group of collectors I was talking about. And you’re likely in a large majority. But that doesn’t mean others don’t have very different mindsets, even if you can’t (seem to) understand it.
Mark has it right here. I am not Simpson or Hansen or any number of other big collectors here but I would wager that I have more money in my collection than the vast majority of collectors.
If I sell a coin for any reason, I want the most back I can get but I don't really care if I lose hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of dollars on the resale of a coin. I don't view it as a "loss". Just like I wouldn't view airplane tickets or a new set of golf clubs or lift tickets or etc etc as a loss.
I think most people can understand your viewpoint about the the importance (to you) of your coins maintaining their value, whether we agree or not. I think that the other, contradictory viewpoint is easily understood as well, even if you don't agree or couldn't relate.
I pretty much understand your viewpoint. I am just saying I don’t worry either as I have so many years of viewing pleasure so that if my coins drop in half it’s not a big deal. Entertainment cost.
But I am just saying psychologically people still like to see their pride and joy coins hold or appreciate in value. It’s human nature I believe.
And I'm saying you're mistaken to make this broad assumption about everyone's psychology or about human nature. It seems that you're projecting your own values on the populace at large. This may be correct for many or even most but certainly not all.
I would be delighted if the value of my pride and joy plummeted because I could buy more on the cheap. My pride is not based on the nominal value of my belongings and my joy is not contingent on their financial value.
If I sell a coin for any reason, I want the most back I can get but I don't really care if I lose hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of dollars on the resale of a coin. I don't view it as a "loss". Just like I wouldn't view airplane tickets or a new set of golf clubs or lift tickets or etc etc as a loss.
At least with coins, you can take a capital loss on your income tax returns.
If I sell a coin for any reason, I want the most back I can get but I don't really care if I lose hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of dollars on the resale of a coin. I don't view it as a "loss". Just like I wouldn't view airplane tickets or a new set of golf clubs or lift tickets or etc etc as a loss.
At least with coins, you can take a capital loss on your income tax returns.
In the coin game, yes, I'm fairly young I suppose... In my forties. And either fortunately or unfortunately I have plenty of capital losses to roll forward for many years without needing to involve my coin collection at all.
Comments
Very well done!
I think your post might be the most accurate one in this thread..except for this one, of course.
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's the one except mine is raw.
Yes, I am throwing that number out because the original figure is what it cost and now what it has appreciated to - frankly it would be scary to pin a price on that because even double the 20k figure not out of the realm of possibility. A coin of a much superior category but that rarity, colour [of frankly more honest hues] can also be found; as opposed to very common dates with "eccentric" toning.
Otherwise I agree with the last part of your post.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Why would you get any push back for your post?
I doubt anyone would have an issue with you saying that buyers of such coins have “taste in their feet.”or
that they have paid “ridiculous” prices
or
that the coins are “cartoonish”, with “way too much color.”
or
that the buyers are “foolish”.
Surely, you’re a top expert on these coins and know their pricing and values as well as anyone. That, of course, includes collectors who’ve participated in this market segment for years, if not decades.
Please tell me I have all of that right, because if I don’t, your comments come across as arrogant, at best.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Additionally, I worry that someday toners may fall out of favor, and the price will bottom out. There is also the concern of whether they are stable or not. Any environmental change in the surface could ruin their eye appeal.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I’ve been hearing that since the 1980’s. But in your defense, “someday” covers more than four decades.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry, got my "fans" and "lovers" mixed up.
I’ve learned a few things in my 65 years of circling the sun. One of them is that if you like something and have the money, go ahead and buy it since it may not be there the next time you go to buy it. And secondly, if YOU like it, that is ALL that matters. Everyone’s taste is different…and that is a good thing or a lot of people would be lonely in life…..😉
Price aside I happen to like the coin that is the subject of this debate.
Curiously, do you have more “fans” or “lovers”?
Never mind, please don’t answer, as that might be off topic.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Note to self: > @david3142 said:
This one should be the Webster's version of Monster. I could see putting this house on this one and still sleeping soundly.
Its a beauty for sure. I imagine even non toner fans could appreciate it. But putting the house on a common date Morgan in extremely high grade with Monster toning still has a ceiling. The only question is not being able to break the ceiling every time it appears for sale, sort of like trying to find a chair before the music stops
I agree it's a gamble but I'm talking the "Coin House Money" what is somewhat expendable anyway and relatively matching in size. That coin stops the music!
gold stickers.> @knovak1976 said:
One of the things I’ve learned (in only 63 years) is that our knowledge, taste, interests and sense of value are constantly changing. Which means that we sometimes come to regret earlier purchases. So “if you like it” is not all that matters.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It is... until you stop liking it.
I don't have the constitution to go out on a limb like that. I'm a cheapskate at heart. But, in my 59 years, I've learned that regrets work both ways.
My biggest numismatic regret is not buying the Tibet Pick #2 plate note from the Krause auction 20 years ago. At the time it sold for $2500 and, though I could have scraped the money together, it was a lot of money to me then. It was an XF note.
I've only seen a couple VGish notes since then. It is a very rare note. The last one sold for over $10k. The note I passed on is now likely a $50k or higher note so I will never own one, even if I could find one because I still can't bring myself to put that much money in one note.
I've handled tens of thousands of coins and notes since then. I've probably viewed hundreds of thousands. I don't regret any of my purchases or any of my passes EXCEPT that one. And that regret has nothing to do with the current price and everything to do with the gaping hole in my collection that will likely forever be open.
That’s good to know. My oldest certified Walker was purchased in the mid to late 1990s. It was stored properly and hasn’t changed, at all, in almost 30 years. So, that validates your statement and thinking.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I’m sorry, too, as the ‘lover’ is liable to ‘tarnish’ my reputation, if people get us confused! Pun intended… Lolol
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Okay Mr. Feld sorry for coming across so strong. But seriously a GREEN faced Morgan. Looks like a comic book character. There are many more attractive toned coins that don’t have such oversized dominant toning, one sided as well.
Great story and I'd love to see a pic of this note or one like it. All collectors who have been around for a while will have memories of "the one that got away".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Different people have their own tastes, preferences and amounts that objects are worth to them. That doesn’t necessarily make others foolish, guilty of bad taste or of paying ridiculous prices, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree. I was being judgmental. But I was trying to make some common sense opinions about the market. I can’t wrap my head around paying these multiples. Even JA has stated that he thinks it’s crazy for people to invest good money for common coins in uncommon grades. I think he was especially referring to the 1938 Mercury dime that brought $260,000.
Common coins in uncommon grades... that's the entire top end of the entire market. Why is that crazier than common coins from an uncommon mint? You can buy 300+ 1916-D dimes or S-VDB cents today, if you want. How many Green Monsters can you buy?
If you want to see irrational pricing, look at EVERY coin you own that costs more than face or bullion value. The majority of the world thinks you"re an idiot for paying that price.
Amazing auction price. Really nice toner! Not a toner guy so clueless there on pricing. Congrats to the buyer - enjoy your coin. CDN CAC CPG on it $165. But on any given day with toners…..
When I think what that money would buy in PCGS MS 69/70 AGE or AGB…..
There is someone who posts here who sold a phenomenally toned super high grade 1880-S Morgan for multiples of what the green $10,000 81-S P64 $1 brought.
He might respond upon seeing this (or he might not).
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
If someone gave you $20,000 and you had to buy either the green “monster” at a 100x book value or a scarcer MS 65-67 $20 Saint Gaudens which would you choose? To me it’s the Saint Gaudens any day any time. Much better investment.
It appears the Top St Gaudens collector just bought the #1 Registry set of MS State Quarters. No joke. So, give me a few great State quarters with that $20,000! 😜
Wondercoin.
Here's the real question: which would you rather return to the seller?
The Toner Absolutely a matter of taste 👅, LOL. Keeping that gorgeous Saint Gaudens👍
My guess is that a large percentage of the toned dollar collectors are collecting, not investing.
If so, they might not give a hoot (or even two hoots) about the Saint.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But aren’t you investing if you are spending $20,000. Unless you don’t care about future resale value as you are never selling or trading for another coin. Otherwise if you are so wealthy you don’t even care if you have spent too much. In my book a $20000 purchase is an investment as well as a collection piece.
The investment/collection discussion is a long and tortured path.
However, if looking for something to maintain value, a semi-unique toner may be a better option. Saints in 67 are very common. Nearly every single Saint and Morgan in every grade is ultra-common. So any rarities are condition rarities. What is a more rare condition than one of a kind, unique toning?
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
@Cuprinkor . . . . .
You made me smile. I usually just watch these toner discussions with interest and a chuckle here and there. I think 'BagBurn' may still hold the world toner price record . . . at least for Morgans. Your comment was spot on . . . . but I do have to comment . . . the single-sided blue-green toner posted several times above is an eye-catcher. The original posted coin . . . very nice as well.
Drunner
'BagBurn' - 2008 - 2019
I think it depends on some combination of the finances and mindset of the buyer. Believe it or not, a lot of collectors buy coins (in all different price ranges) without thinking or worrying about what type of financial return they’ll end up getting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I never invest in coins. And what I would do isn't the issue. I don't want either one of those coins. But I'm not going to question the person who does.
And that can include coins that are 100x or 1000x more expensive than this one.
Still I was referring to a better date Saint not a common one. or perhaps a 1934 S Peace Dollar in 66. I also believe the market is thin for toners and can wildly fluctuate depending on the auction and the demand for toners at any given time. Demand will mostly be solid and more predictable for a 1934 S dollar in gem condition.-
FUTURE demand for any coin isn't predictable. There have been whole decades where the price slid and whole decades where they increased. Long term investment is questionable.
But, again, the flaw is thinking that the buyer cares what the future value is. If you want to make money, you buy broad- based mutual funds. If you want to collect coins, you buy the things that give you pleasure.
And if you want to make friends, you don't question how other people choose to have fun.
Everyone's definition can vary but IMO there are very few better date saints. The UHR, and 1933 qualify. And the 20-S, 21, 26-D, 29, 30-S, 31, 31-D, and 32 are better dates. But most of those don't even exist in 67. You might be able to get an ugly one in 65 for $100k for one or two of those dates. 66 and up start at several hundred thousand dollars. Proofs might be a touch cheaper at $50-75k?
Those are better dates. And I bet you the market for a $300k coin is an awful lot thinner than for a gorgeous (or not if you don't like it), one of a kind, $20k toner.
All of your other "better dates" have populations in the thousands or tens of thousands. I would be a lot more concerned about numismatic demand falling off for one of those coins. In fact, that exact thing has happened now with the run up in gold - numismatic premiums for Saints has plummeted. The numismatic premiums for toners seems robust given the existence of this thread.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
While I accept what you are saying, it's still pretty surprising. I wonder how much of it is the scene from MAD MEN where Roger Sterling tells Don Draper to go buy a Cadillac. Roger says, "Do you know how invigorating it is to go in and write a check for sixty-five hundred dollars, and not care?"
I think there’s truth to what you said but I think nobody likes to lose money on their coins, and would like their coins to hold or appreciate. I own a simple type set worth perhaps $2000 that I am probably going to keep lifetime and I still like to see my coins hold there value in case I do sell or trade any.!
Clearly, you’re not among the group of collectors I was talking about. And you’re likely in a large majority. But that doesn’t mean others don’t have very different mindsets, even if you can’t (seem to) understand it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark has it right here. I am not Simpson or Hansen or any number of other big collectors here but I would wager that I have more money in my collection than the vast majority of collectors.
If I sell a coin for any reason, I want the most back I can get but I don't really care if I lose hundreds (or in some cases, thousands) of dollars on the resale of a coin. I don't view it as a "loss". Just like I wouldn't view airplane tickets or a new set of golf clubs or lift tickets or etc etc as a loss.
I think most people can understand your viewpoint about the the importance (to you) of your coins maintaining their value, whether we agree or not. I think that the other, contradictory viewpoint is easily understood as well, even if you don't agree or couldn't relate.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I pretty much understand your viewpoint. I am just saying I don’t worry either as I have so many years of viewing pleasure so that if my coins drop in half it’s not a big deal. Entertainment cost.
But I am just saying psychologically people still like to see their pride and joy coins hold or appreciate in value. It’s human nature I believe.
I have little idea of what my collection's current market value is. Somewhere between $10k and $100k would be my guess.
And I'm saying you're mistaken to make this broad assumption about everyone's psychology or about human nature. It seems that you're projecting your own values on the populace at large. This may be correct for many or even most but certainly not all.
I would be delighted if the value of my pride and joy plummeted because I could buy more on the cheap. My pride is not based on the nominal value of my belongings and my joy is not contingent on their financial value.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Three ounces of gold for that coin!!
Sheesh..........
Let's compare these two in five years from now.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Hard to do unless it sells again...
You must be a young man!
At least with coins, you can take a capital loss on your income tax returns.
In the coin game, yes, I'm fairly young I suppose... In my forties. And either fortunately or unfortunately I have plenty of capital losses to roll forward for many years without needing to involve my coin collection at all.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase