I just read an interview with Canseco where he says steroids can stay in your system for many years. In the past I've read the opposite. That they clear your system quickly. Canseco says there hasn't been much research done.
In reality, suing wouldn't accomplish much monetarily because I'm sure Canseco doesn't (didn't) have much to lose. BUT, if the court ordered in favor of any of them suing Canseco, it could change the commentary slightly that there was no basis for Canseco's assertions.
At this point, since there are guy who have been let in who we either know or feel (more likely than not) that they used, they should just open it up. Like I said before, though, it's the ones who have more aggressivley denied usage who most likely used that are the ones being met with equal resistance of being let in the hall. There's probably also a correlation between the aggressive deniers and guys who are jerks and not liked by the BBWA. My guess is they ultimately get in via the veterans committee.
@lahmejoon said:
In reality, suing wouldn't accomplish much monetarily because I'm sure Canseco doesn't (didn't) have much to lose. BUT, if the court ordered in favor of any of them suing Canseco, it could change the commentary slightly that there was no basis for Canseco's assertions.
At this point, since there are guy who have been let in who we either know or feel (more likely than not) that they used, they should just open it up. Like I said before, though, it's the ones who have more aggressivley denied usage who most likely used that are the ones being met with equal resistance of being let in the hall. There's probably also a correlation between the aggressive deniers and guys who are jerks and not liked by the BBWA. My guess is they ultimately get in via the veterans committee.
This is exactly what I think happens with enough time too. Get on the Veterans' Committee and these guys will get in.
@lahmejoon said:
In reality, suing wouldn't accomplish much monetarily because I'm sure Canseco doesn't (didn't) have much to lose. BUT, if the court ordered in favor of any of them suing Canseco, it could change the commentary slightly that there was no basis for Canseco's assertions.
At this point, since there are guy who have been let in who we either know or feel (more likely than not) that they used, they should just open it up. Like I said before, though, it's the ones who have more aggressivley denied usage who most likely used that are the ones being met with equal resistance of being let in the hall. There's probably also a correlation between the aggressive deniers and guys who are jerks and not liked by the BBWA. My guess is they ultimately get in via the veterans committee.
This is exactly what I think happens with enough time too. Get on the Veterans' Committee and these guys will get in.
They have already been voted on by the eras veterans committee. Bonds, Palemeiro, and Clemens needed 12 votes and they got less than four each. Mattingly got 8, Schilling 7, Murphy 6, and McGriff was unanimous with 16 for the lone enshrinee.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
@lahmejoon said:
In reality, suing wouldn't accomplish much monetarily because I'm sure Canseco doesn't (didn't) have much to lose. BUT, if the court ordered in favor of any of them suing Canseco, it could change the commentary slightly that there was no basis for Canseco's assertions.
At this point, since there are guy who have been let in who we either know or feel (more likely than not) that they used, they should just open it up. Like I said before, though, it's the ones who have more aggressivley denied usage who most likely used that are the ones being met with equal resistance of being let in the hall. There's probably also a correlation between the aggressive deniers and guys who are jerks and not liked by the BBWA. My guess is they ultimately get in via the veterans committee.
This is exactly what I think happens with enough time too. Get on the Veterans' Committee and these guys will get in.
They have already been voted on by the eras veterans committee. Bonds, Palemeiro, and Clemens needed 12 votes and they got less than four each. Mattingly got 8, Schilling 7, Murphy 6, and McGriff was unanimous with 16 for the lone enshrinee.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
Yeah, I think when the old guard shifts out of the committee, there will be people who will support their induction. I don't think Curt Schilling tested positive for PEDs, but should be in just based on his 3K strikeouts. His off-the-field antics definitly has cost him.
@lahmejoon said:
In reality, suing wouldn't accomplish much monetarily because I'm sure Canseco doesn't (didn't) have much to lose. BUT, if the court ordered in favor of any of them suing Canseco, it could change the commentary slightly that there was no basis for Canseco's assertions.
At this point, since there are guy who have been let in who we either know or feel (more likely than not) that they used, they should just open it up. Like I said before, though, it's the ones who have more aggressivley denied usage who most likely used that are the ones being met with equal resistance of being let in the hall. There's probably also a correlation between the aggressive deniers and guys who are jerks and not liked by the BBWA. My guess is they ultimately get in via the veterans committee.
This is exactly what I think happens with enough time too. Get on the Veterans' Committee and these guys will get in.
They have already been voted on by the eras veterans committee. Bonds, Palemeiro, and Clemens needed 12 votes and they got less than four each. Mattingly got 8, Schilling 7, Murphy 6, and McGriff was unanimous with 16 for the lone enshrinee.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
Yeah, I think when the old guard shifts out of the committee, there will be people who will support their induction. I don't think Curt Schilling tested positive for PEDs, but should be in just based on his 3K strikeouts. His off-the-field antics definitly has cost him.
Those players on the committee were all contemporaries of the players in question and some of those executives are new guard. Only way it happens, just like most committees, is if cronies get on. I don't know if they have allies like that.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
Is there a way to see who voted for who? I need to start a list of players I will never collect from the above.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
Is there a way to see who voted for who? I need to start a list of players I will never collect from the above.
I don't believe there is. It looks like the contemporary players already in are holding a hard line against the known users.
The beauty about it all is everyone has a choice to collect a PED user or not collect them. It shouldn't matter if Hall of Fame voters have a different opinion. If you like a guy, then collect them. If someone else doesn't like them, then they don't.
If it is a matter of making an educated guess if some player will eventually get in and you are using that as a basis for a potential uptick in prices down the road, then make the best judgement and buy away.
This thread has some great responses and is a good spectrum of why steroid era players aren't valued quite as highly as their less-likely-to-have-cheated peers. Some of this has been covered already but I have a little different explanation and opinion.
I feel like a lot of card collectors judge players on their own morals and values in addition to statistics. That's already been said. But those of us here (the individuals dedicating time to reading and responding in the PSA collector's forums) are highly likely to be much more invested than the casual collector would be. That also means that we'd have stronger opinions than a casual collector and usually would commit a larger percentage of our income towards card collecting or the trading card industry.
That being said, a lot of the steroid era players were great players but people here aren't going to spend top dollar on the players that are suspicious from that era when they don't like who the player is, what they did to break rules within the game (or society), and certainly won't overspend on cards that could lose money. Now the average Joe, he isn't throwing around a ton of money like the hard core collectors or businesses are. The players he thought were good or he grew up rooting for like players like A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa aren't going to command overwhelming amount because he's not going to spend a large amount on those players. And the market dictates that those of us that collect or buy and sell frequently aren't risking all that much if anything at all because it's not the same as getting a Ken Griffey Jr. card or a Randy Johnson rookie of that era... No controversy means we can feel comfortable about what we've invested in... Well, at least right now.
Yes, "right now" has a big impact here on this topic. It'll be interesting to see what happens In 20 years, when those of us who grew up idolizing those players while playing at the local sandlot on a Saturday afternoon in June/July have more liquid funds and the trading card industry continues to grow. I could easily see a scenario where some of those players cards increase in price simply because people get intrigued by them again. And, controversy sells. Especially if HoF opportunities within the veteran committee will bring the steroid era players back into the news which could lead to being a perfect buy and hold investment opportunity if you're willing to have the patience and guts to purchase those you think could or would make it.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
Is there a way to see who voted for who? I need to start a list of players I will never collect from the above.
I don't believe there is. It looks like the contemporary players already in are holding a hard line against the known users.
The beauty about it all is everyone has a choice to collect a PED user or not collect them. It shouldn't matter if Hall of Fame voters have a different opinion. If you like a guy, then collect them. If someone else doesn't like them, then they don't.
If it is a matter of making an educated guess if some player will eventually get in and you are using that as a basis for a potential uptick in prices down the road, then make the best judgement and buy away.
In my situation it's not so simple. Roughly 50% of my heavy collecting years: shows, auctions at card shops, bid boards at card shops, packs and sets from stores, etc. was from the 80's. For me to have the majority of the players devalued bothers me. For Christ sakes you can go online and buy a Kirby Puckett Rookie for fractions of what it should be worth and he was never implemented in PEDS. Luckily I also collected older stuff to offset all of the 80's junk wax.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
Is there a way to see who voted for who? I need to start a list of players I will never collect from the above.
I don't believe there is. It looks like the contemporary players already in are holding a hard line against the known users.
The beauty about it all is everyone has a choice to collect a PED user or not collect them. It shouldn't matter if Hall of Fame voters have a different opinion. If you like a guy, then collect them. If someone else doesn't like them, then they don't.
If it is a matter of making an educated guess if some player will eventually get in and you are using that as a basis for a potential uptick in prices down the road, then make the best judgement and buy away.
In my situation it's not so simple. Roughly 50% of my heavy collecting years: shows, auctions at card shops, bid boards at card shops, packs and sets from stores, etc. was from the 80's. For me to have the majority of the players devalued bothers me. For Christ sakes you can go online and buy a Kirby Puckett Rookie for fractions of what it should be worth and he was never implemented in PEDS. Luckily I also collected older stuff to offset all of the 80's junk wax.
It is a bummer that those cards tanked.
The game changed though, and it is an extremely odd game from that era. For instance, your 1985 Topps Mark McGwire(PED guy) is a $2,500 card in a 10 and a $100 card in a 9. You can throw all the centered 9's and 10's in a pile with a hidden grade and it would be a crapshoot to pick the 10's out of the pile. To me, that vast price difference on an opinion is far more head scratching than figuring out why some PED guys are less popular than others. It isn't a rare card in high grade, only in high opinion.
People want 10's no doubt. They don't seem to care that a 9 today could be a 10 tomorrow. Or vice versa.
You just had to hope that you have some nice centered cards that you bought back then and be lucky enough to get a 10.
@FirstBeard said:
Do you think Hank Aaron would have done better in front of congress with all of the cameras when asked about what he took during every season?
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
Is there a way to see who voted for who? I need to start a list of players I will never collect from the above.
I don't believe there is. It looks like the contemporary players already in are holding a hard line against the known users.
The beauty about it all is everyone has a choice to collect a PED user or not collect them. It shouldn't matter if Hall of Fame voters have a different opinion. If you like a guy, then collect them. If someone else doesn't like them, then they don't.
If it is a matter of making an educated guess if some player will eventually get in and you are using that as a basis for a potential uptick in prices down the road, then make the best judgement and buy away.
In my situation it's not so simple. Roughly 50% of my heavy collecting years: shows, auctions at card shops, bid boards at card shops, packs and sets from stores, etc. was from the 80's. For me to have the majority of the players devalued bothers me. For Christ sakes you can go online and buy a Kirby Puckett Rookie for fractions of what it should be worth and he was never implemented in PEDS. Luckily I also collected older stuff to offset all of the 80's junk wax.
Who should you be mad at?
I say the players, who acquired illegal substances and used them to enhance their performances.
We've gone round and round about when the MLB bargaining agreement outlawed steroids, but as far as I'm concerned, after the The Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988 which created criminal penalties for those who “distribute or possess anabolic steroids with the intent to distribute", there's no excuse for using steroids.
The MLB and the players union are not innocent here either. They saw what was going on and didn't begin testing until 2003. Gee, 15 years to get serious about it.
There's collectors and investors. If you like Barry Bonds, Sosa and the other cheater's, be happy as a collector you have their cards.
If you are an investor, you know that many factors go into what makes one guy worth more than another. Sometimes it makes no sense, why is Nolan Ryan more sought after than Tom Seaver, and why doesn't anyone collect Randy Johnson?
Guys like Bonds and McGwire got humongous. Both of them (and others) knew what they were doing and made huge money and temporary fame.
They couldn't care less if their fans lost hundreds or thousands of dollars on baseball cards because they cheated and yet they STILL continue to lie about it.
Lastly, how should I feel about the value of the Harmon Killebrew cards I have? Instead of being #7 all time, he's #11.
At least 4 (and maybe more) players are credited as having more HR lifetime.
Thankfully, I will never sell my Killebrew collection.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
The testing of steriods is just a game. I went through it in college (football) and hardly anyone or no one ever got "caught". same with the pros. and now you barely hear about it. Like i said before there is just too much money involved not to keep your body in 100% ++ condition. and would venture a guess that items like this were starting to being taken in the late 50's. In the 90's they just started taking better stuff. (make you even stronger than before).
The real issue was that people were making money off the "illegal" roids and the govt wasn't. That's why they cracked down so hard 20 or 25 years ago. They (the govt) now has that "under control."
Govt control was the real reason for the congressional hearings. Normally congress wouldn't give a crap. they only care about the money they aren't being able to pocket or the money they are getting ready to pocket.
None of that matters. The US government is always all about the money and how much they can steal from the middle class. This time some millionaires got their hands slapped. Didn't really cost them much.
The players were greedy and stupid. Steroids were illegal.
Morons like Bonds and McGwire blew themselves up beyond recognition and doubled their HR production.
Nobody cared, some still don't, but because these guys cheated (and they would do it again in a heartbeat) the biggest offenders are being "punished" by not getting in the HOF (they don't really care about that either).
The people that are "suffering" are those that bought up tons of their cards and are now mad about it. Again, mostly middle class guys trying to make a buck. Uncle Sam is ALWAYS right there with his hand out.
These IDIOTS had 15 years to use without being tested and continued to use after the testing began. They made millions of dollars with no real consequences.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Money over the Hall of Fame. But don't think Your favorite football players aren't doing them. Mauer and Helton quite possibly did too. Bagwell. Lebron? Jordan? Shaq? Karl malone? JJ watt? Tj Watt? Bosa? Jerome Harrison? Howie long? Steve Mcmichael? and the list goes on and on.......
Just because the "media" isn't covering them doesn't mean they aren't doing it. And roids have been illegal for all of Lebron's life. Right?
@olb31 said:
Money over the Hall of Fame. But don't think Your favorite football players aren't doing them. Mauer and Helton quite possibly did too. Bagwell. Lebron? Jordan? Shaq? Karl malone? JJ watt? Tj Watt? Bosa? Jerome Harrison? Howie long? Steve Mcmichael? and the list goes on and on.......
Just because the "media" isn't covering them doesn't mean they aren't doing it. And roids have been illegal for all of Lebron's life. Right?
You never know who MIGHT be doing them.
Bonds, McGwire, ARod Sosa (plus others) all got caught.
Sorry if anyone lost money on their cards. They are the ones that screwed you.
I doubt that Mauer did them, he was hurt an awful lot, maybe he was doing the wrong kind or not enough?
Helton and Bagwell? Who knows?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
One thing can't be denied - all of this brought people back to baseball after the strike and also captivated outside audiences, which had to equate to more $ for everyone involved in MLB. So, of course nobody cared when it was happening.
@lahmejoon said:
One thing can't be denied - all of this brought people back to baseball after the strike and also captivated outside audiences, which had to equate to more $ for everyone involved in MLB. So, of course nobody cared when it was happening.
I didn't lose anything (money wise) on these players. But I do believe their are some very good opportunities to invest in them. Prices are really low. And all it takes is Sheffield to get in or Manny... just one and then it's on.
@olb31 said:
I didn't lose anything (money wise) on these players. But I do believe their are some very good opportunities to invest in them. Prices are really low. And all it takes is Sheffield to get in or Manny... just one and then it's on.
There is an opportunity there, but sometimes getting into the HOF doesn't mean much for card values.
Randy Johnson for example, should be a much more in demand player, and he doesn't have the baggage the juicers do.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
The testing of steriods is just a game. I went through it in college (football) and hardly anyone or no one ever got "caught". same with the pros. and now you barely hear about it. Like i said before there is just too much money involved not to keep your body in 100% ++ condition. and would venture a guess that items like this were starting to being taken in the late 50's. In the 90's they just started taking better stuff. (make you even stronger than before).
The real issue was that people were making money off the "illegal" roids and the govt wasn't. That's why they cracked down so hard 20 or 25 years ago. They (the govt) now has that "under control."
50's is a good call. Prior to that all body builders looked normal. Since the 60's on they are all bigger than naturally possible.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
It's also interesting that every time I hear one of these stories the, facts, change. If I search the internet it's real hard to find good information. I doubt Canseco's book is 100 percent accurate. Probably shouldn't be considered the only source of information going in to the future.
>
>
Canseco's book is the only source of information that comes from a player who used steroids.
Since he has never been sued by any of the players he said also used, I'm assuming he's telling the truth.
Did you ever read either of his books?
I'll bet many here haven't bothered.
Doing nothing ofttimes is the smartest move. If they had sued the discovery process would have incinerated them.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
It's also interesting that every time I hear one of these stories the, facts, change. If I search the internet it's real hard to find good information. I doubt Canseco's book is 100 percent accurate. Probably shouldn't be considered the only source of information going in to the future.
>
>
Canseco's book is the only source of information that comes from a player who used steroids.
Since he has never been sued by any of the players he said also used, I'm assuming he's telling the truth.
Did you ever read either of his books?
I'll bet many here haven't bothered.
Doing nothing ofttimes is the smartest move. If they had sued the discovery process would have incinerated them.
If I were innocent and had the funds to sue someone who slandered me, I would do it.
Jose is much to blame as well for the steroid issue, but at least he "came clean".
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
Jose is much to blame as well for the steroid issue, but at least he "came clean".
Nobody is going to buy that book if Canseco doesn't say that stuff. Canseco could have just said that stuff for the money.
Somebody earlier said nobody has ever proved Clemens did steroids. Canseco saying he did is the only thing keeping Clemens out of the hall? What if Canseco just didn't like Clemens. An Introduction to my theory.
@JoeBanzai said:
Jose is much to blame as well for the steroid issue, but at least he "came clean".
Nobody is going to buy that book if Canseco doesn't say that stuff. Canseco could have just said that stuff for the money.
Somebody earlier said nobody has ever proved Clemens did steroids. Canseco saying he did is the only thing keeping Clemens out of the hall? What if Canseco just didn't like Clemens. An Introduction to my theory.
It's obvious you didn't read the book.
Canseco did NOT SAY he was aware of Clemens using, and he seemed to like Roger, not dislike him.
I have always been curious about steroids, so I read his book soon after it came out. Pretty hard to believe some of the stuff he was claiming at the time.
Then one by one, the guys he claimed to have direct knowledge of steroid use were caught using or admitted to it.
By the way, he also never said he was sure Bonds used, but he did say he didn't think anyone could put on muscle as fast as Bonds did without using steroids. He says he had a brief discussion about it with Barry, and Bonds smiled and didn't admit or deny anything.
Of course, since then Barry has admitted to using and has had some of his old tests rechecked and failed.
You can pick up a copy of "Juiced" on eBay for $5.00. It's an interesting read, his follow up book "Vindicated" is also pretty good too.
Do yourself a favor and actually read it, you might learn something and/or enjoy it!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I enjoy reading books written by people who actually were there as opposed to by a writer observing and interviewing others.
Here's a few others for those of you who like to get their information from the "Horse's Mouth";
"Ball Four" written by ex big league pitcher Jim Bouton. Absolutely hilarious read about his rise to being a top Yankee pitcher, getting hurt, and struggle to make it back to the big leagues.
Yes, he told some stories that other players didn't like, but this is not only the best baseball book I've ever read, but one of the best books on any subject.
"The Umpire Strikes Back" by former Major League umpire Ron Luciano. Another funny and very informative book. This is the tale of a huge baseball fan who happens to become an Umpire and gets to hang out with his baseball heroes. Fantastic read!
"My Turn at Bat" by Ted Williams. The guy was truly bigger than life. This is a must read. This guy was an American hero. Secondly, he was probably the best hitter who ever lived. This guy is NOT AFRAID to give you his opinions.
"All My Octobers" by Mickey Mantle. Not as great a read, but you get Mickey's accounting of his World Series experiences. Every Mantle fan should enjoy this.
"Juiced" by Canseco. Still the only book I am aware of where a player who used steroids talks about it.
Plenty of others, but those come to mind off the top of my head. The first two are simply great books.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I enjoy reading books written by people who actually were there as opposed to by a writer observing and interviewing others.
Here's a few others for those of you who like to get their information from the "Horse's Mouth";
"Ball Four" written by ex big league pitcher Jim Bouton. Absolutely hilarious read about his rise to being a top Yankee pitcher, getting hurt, and struggle to make it back to the big leagues.
Yes, he told some stories that other players didn't like, but this is not only the best baseball book I've ever read, but one of the best books on any subject.
"The Umpire Strikes Back" by former Major League umpire Ron Luciano. Another funny and very informative book. This is the tale of a huge baseball fan who happens to become an Umpire and gets to hang out with his baseball heroes. Fantastic read!
"My Turn at Bat" by Ted Williams. The guy was truly bigger than life. This is a must read. This guy was an American hero. Secondly, he was probably the best hitter who ever lived. This guy is NOT AFRAID to give you his opinions.
"All My Octobers" by Mickey Mantle. Not as great a read, but you get Mickey's accounting of his World Series experiences. Every Mantle fan should enjoy this.
"Juiced" by Canseco. Still the only book I am aware of where a player who used steroids talks about it.
Plenty of others, but those come to mind off the top of my head. The first two are simply great books.
Good stuff, thanks Joe. It's hockey, not baseball, but another book that should always be in a list under that "Horse's Mouth" category is "The Game" by Ken Dryden.
I enjoy reading books written by people who actually were there as opposed to by a writer observing and interviewing others.
Here's a few others for those of you who like to get their information from the "Horse's Mouth";
"Ball Four" written by ex big league pitcher Jim Bouton. Absolutely hilarious read about his rise to being a top Yankee pitcher, getting hurt, and struggle to make it back to the big leagues.
Yes, he told some stories that other players didn't like, but this is not only the best baseball book I've ever read, but one of the best books on any subject.
"The Umpire Strikes Back" by former Major League umpire Ron Luciano. Another funny and very informative book. This is the tale of a huge baseball fan who happens to become an Umpire and gets to hang out with his baseball heroes. Fantastic read!
"My Turn at Bat" by Ted Williams. The guy was truly bigger than life. This is a must read. This guy was an American hero. Secondly, he was probably the best hitter who ever lived. This guy is NOT AFRAID to give you his opinions.
"All My Octobers" by Mickey Mantle. Not as great a read, but you get Mickey's accounting of his World Series experiences. Every Mantle fan should enjoy this.
"Juiced" by Canseco. Still the only book I am aware of where a player who used steroids talks about it.
Plenty of others, but those come to mind off the top of my head. The first two are simply great books.
Good stuff, thanks Joe. It's hockey, not baseball, but another book that should always be in a list under that "Horse's Mouth" category is "The Game" by Ken Dryden.
I love hockey!
Just bought the book on eBay, $5.00 delivered.
Looking forward to reading it.
Thank you!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Good stuff, thanks Joe. It's hockey, not baseball, but another book that should always be in a list under that "Horse's Mouth" category is "The Game" by Ken Dryden.
I love hockey!
Just bought the book on eBay, $5.00 delivered.
Looking forward to reading it.
Thank you!
Glad to hear it! I am certain that you will love it.
Maybe someday we'll get a book on the history of drugs in sports.
amphetamines
cocaine
testosterone
amphetamines (again)
corticosteriods
anabolic steriods
now the latest debate is around ADD/ADHD medications. (so back to amphetamines I guess).
Keeping players on the field has always been a priority, until mores change a bit and the mob latches on to the next thing destroying civilization.
As for valuations. I think that the demand will come for the 90s cards of Jeter and Rodriguez especially with the condition sensitivity of those examples mentioned.
Comments
I just read an interview with Canseco where he says steroids can stay in your system for many years. In the past I've read the opposite. That they clear your system quickly. Canseco says there hasn't been much research done.
https://nbcnews.com/id/wbna8815447
In reality, suing wouldn't accomplish much monetarily because I'm sure Canseco doesn't (didn't) have much to lose. BUT, if the court ordered in favor of any of them suing Canseco, it could change the commentary slightly that there was no basis for Canseco's assertions.
At this point, since there are guy who have been let in who we either know or feel (more likely than not) that they used, they should just open it up. Like I said before, though, it's the ones who have more aggressivley denied usage who most likely used that are the ones being met with equal resistance of being let in the hall. There's probably also a correlation between the aggressive deniers and guys who are jerks and not liked by the BBWA. My guess is they ultimately get in via the veterans committee.
This is exactly what I think happens with enough time too. Get on the Veterans' Committee and these guys will get in.
They have already been voted on by the eras veterans committee. Bonds, Palemeiro, and Clemens needed 12 votes and they got less than four each. Mattingly got 8, Schilling 7, Murphy 6, and McGriff was unanimous with 16 for the lone enshrinee.
These were the people who voted on that committee:
Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Derrick Hall, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser
Next vote for that era is 2025
You can't tell the story of baseball without Barry Bonds. So I do think he will get in at some point.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
Yeah, I think when the old guard shifts out of the committee, there will be people who will support their induction. I don't think Curt Schilling tested positive for PEDs, but should be in just based on his 3K strikeouts. His off-the-field antics definitly has cost him.
Those players on the committee were all contemporaries of the players in question and some of those executives are new guard. Only way it happens, just like most committees, is if cronies get on. I don't know if they have allies like that.
Is there a way to see who voted for who? I need to start a list of players I will never collect from the above.
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Do you think Hank Aaron would have done better in front of congress with all of the cameras when asked about what he took during every season?
I don't believe there is. It looks like the contemporary players already in are holding a hard line against the known users.
The beauty about it all is everyone has a choice to collect a PED user or not collect them. It shouldn't matter if Hall of Fame voters have a different opinion. If you like a guy, then collect them. If someone else doesn't like them, then they don't.
If it is a matter of making an educated guess if some player will eventually get in and you are using that as a basis for a potential uptick in prices down the road, then make the best judgement and buy away.
This thread has some great responses and is a good spectrum of why steroid era players aren't valued quite as highly as their less-likely-to-have-cheated peers. Some of this has been covered already but I have a little different explanation and opinion.
I feel like a lot of card collectors judge players on their own morals and values in addition to statistics. That's already been said. But those of us here (the individuals dedicating time to reading and responding in the PSA collector's forums) are highly likely to be much more invested than the casual collector would be. That also means that we'd have stronger opinions than a casual collector and usually would commit a larger percentage of our income towards card collecting or the trading card industry.
That being said, a lot of the steroid era players were great players but people here aren't going to spend top dollar on the players that are suspicious from that era when they don't like who the player is, what they did to break rules within the game (or society), and certainly won't overspend on cards that could lose money. Now the average Joe, he isn't throwing around a ton of money like the hard core collectors or businesses are. The players he thought were good or he grew up rooting for like players like A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa aren't going to command overwhelming amount because he's not going to spend a large amount on those players. And the market dictates that those of us that collect or buy and sell frequently aren't risking all that much if anything at all because it's not the same as getting a Ken Griffey Jr. card or a Randy Johnson rookie of that era... No controversy means we can feel comfortable about what we've invested in... Well, at least right now.
Yes, "right now" has a big impact here on this topic. It'll be interesting to see what happens In 20 years, when those of us who grew up idolizing those players while playing at the local sandlot on a Saturday afternoon in June/July have more liquid funds and the trading card industry continues to grow. I could easily see a scenario where some of those players cards increase in price simply because people get intrigued by them again. And, controversy sells. Especially if HoF opportunities within the veteran committee will bring the steroid era players back into the news which could lead to being a perfect buy and hold investment opportunity if you're willing to have the patience and guts to purchase those you think could or would make it.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/BH0AAOSwpDBlFeVp/s-l1600.webp
Just another cardboard addict. Always buying, trading and selling.
In my situation it's not so simple. Roughly 50% of my heavy collecting years: shows, auctions at card shops, bid boards at card shops, packs and sets from stores, etc. was from the 80's. For me to have the majority of the players devalued bothers me. For Christ sakes you can go online and buy a Kirby Puckett Rookie for fractions of what it should be worth and he was never implemented in PEDS. Luckily I also collected older stuff to offset all of the 80's junk wax.
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It is a bummer that those cards tanked.
The game changed though, and it is an extremely odd game from that era. For instance, your 1985 Topps Mark McGwire(PED guy) is a $2,500 card in a 10 and a $100 card in a 9. You can throw all the centered 9's and 10's in a pile with a hidden grade and it would be a crapshoot to pick the 10's out of the pile. To me, that vast price difference on an opinion is far more head scratching than figuring out why some PED guys are less popular than others. It isn't a rare card in high grade, only in high opinion.
People want 10's no doubt. They don't seem to care that a 9 today could be a 10 tomorrow. Or vice versa.
You just had to hope that you have some nice centered cards that you bought back then and be lucky enough to get a 10.
Yes
Who should you be mad at?
I say the players, who acquired illegal substances and used them to enhance their performances.
We've gone round and round about when the MLB bargaining agreement outlawed steroids, but as far as I'm concerned, after the The Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988 which created criminal penalties for those who “distribute or possess anabolic steroids with the intent to distribute", there's no excuse for using steroids.
The MLB and the players union are not innocent here either. They saw what was going on and didn't begin testing until 2003. Gee, 15 years to get serious about it.
There's collectors and investors. If you like Barry Bonds, Sosa and the other cheater's, be happy as a collector you have their cards.
If you are an investor, you know that many factors go into what makes one guy worth more than another. Sometimes it makes no sense, why is Nolan Ryan more sought after than Tom Seaver, and why doesn't anyone collect Randy Johnson?
Guys like Bonds and McGwire got humongous. Both of them (and others) knew what they were doing and made huge money and temporary fame.
They couldn't care less if their fans lost hundreds or thousands of dollars on baseball cards because they cheated and yet they STILL continue to lie about it.
Lastly, how should I feel about the value of the Harmon Killebrew cards I have? Instead of being #7 all time, he's #11.
At least 4 (and maybe more) players are credited as having more HR lifetime.
Thankfully, I will never sell my Killebrew collection.
Joe,
The testing of steriods is just a game. I went through it in college (football) and hardly anyone or no one ever got "caught". same with the pros. and now you barely hear about it. Like i said before there is just too much money involved not to keep your body in 100% ++ condition. and would venture a guess that items like this were starting to being taken in the late 50's. In the 90's they just started taking better stuff. (make you even stronger than before).
The real issue was that people were making money off the "illegal" roids and the govt wasn't. That's why they cracked down so hard 20 or 25 years ago. They (the govt) now has that "under control."
Govt control was the real reason for the congressional hearings. Normally congress wouldn't give a crap. they only care about the money they aren't being able to pocket or the money they are getting ready to pocket.
None of that matters. The US government is always all about the money and how much they can steal from the middle class. This time some millionaires got their hands slapped. Didn't really cost them much.
The players were greedy and stupid. Steroids were illegal.
Morons like Bonds and McGwire blew themselves up beyond recognition and doubled their HR production.
Nobody cared, some still don't, but because these guys cheated (and they would do it again in a heartbeat) the biggest offenders are being "punished" by not getting in the HOF (they don't really care about that either).
The people that are "suffering" are those that bought up tons of their cards and are now mad about it. Again, mostly middle class guys trying to make a buck. Uncle Sam is ALWAYS right there with his hand out.
These IDIOTS had 15 years to use without being tested and continued to use after the testing began. They made millions of dollars with no real consequences.
Money over the Hall of Fame. But don't think Your favorite football players aren't doing them. Mauer and Helton quite possibly did too. Bagwell. Lebron? Jordan? Shaq? Karl malone? JJ watt? Tj Watt? Bosa? Jerome Harrison? Howie long? Steve Mcmichael? and the list goes on and on.......
Just because the "media" isn't covering them doesn't mean they aren't doing it. And roids have been illegal for all of Lebron's life. Right?
You never know who MIGHT be doing them.
Bonds, McGwire, ARod Sosa (plus others) all got caught.
Sorry if anyone lost money on their cards. They are the ones that screwed you.
I doubt that Mauer did them, he was hurt an awful lot, maybe he was doing the wrong kind or not enough?
Helton and Bagwell? Who knows?
One thing can't be denied - all of this brought people back to baseball after the strike and also captivated outside audiences, which had to equate to more $ for everyone involved in MLB. So, of course nobody cared when it was happening.
A+++!!
I didn't lose anything (money wise) on these players. But I do believe their are some very good opportunities to invest in them. Prices are really low. And all it takes is Sheffield to get in or Manny... just one and then it's on.
There is an opportunity there, but sometimes getting into the HOF doesn't mean much for card values.
Randy Johnson for example, should be a much more in demand player, and he doesn't have the baggage the juicers do.
50's is a good call. Prior to that all body builders looked normal. Since the 60's on they are all bigger than naturally possible.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
When you watch late 50's movies like Cleopatra (or something akin to this), the dudes were freakin pumped.
Doing nothing ofttimes is the smartest move. If they had sued the discovery process would have incinerated them.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
If I were innocent and had the funds to sue someone who slandered me, I would do it.
Jose is much to blame as well for the steroid issue, but at least he "came clean".
Nobody is going to buy that book if Canseco doesn't say that stuff. Canseco could have just said that stuff for the money.
Somebody earlier said nobody has ever proved Clemens did steroids. Canseco saying he did is the only thing keeping Clemens out of the hall? What if Canseco just didn't like Clemens. An Introduction to my theory.
It's obvious you didn't read the book.
Canseco did NOT SAY he was aware of Clemens using, and he seemed to like Roger, not dislike him.
I have always been curious about steroids, so I read his book soon after it came out. Pretty hard to believe some of the stuff he was claiming at the time.
Then one by one, the guys he claimed to have direct knowledge of steroid use were caught using or admitted to it.
By the way, he also never said he was sure Bonds used, but he did say he didn't think anyone could put on muscle as fast as Bonds did without using steroids. He says he had a brief discussion about it with Barry, and Bonds smiled and didn't admit or deny anything.
Of course, since then Barry has admitted to using and has had some of his old tests rechecked and failed.
You can pick up a copy of "Juiced" on eBay for $5.00. It's an interesting read, his follow up book "Vindicated" is also pretty good too.
Do yourself a favor and actually read it, you might learn something and/or enjoy it!
Good info Joe.
Thanks Tim!
I enjoy reading books written by people who actually were there as opposed to by a writer observing and interviewing others.
Here's a few others for those of you who like to get their information from the "Horse's Mouth";
"Ball Four" written by ex big league pitcher Jim Bouton. Absolutely hilarious read about his rise to being a top Yankee pitcher, getting hurt, and struggle to make it back to the big leagues.
Yes, he told some stories that other players didn't like, but this is not only the best baseball book I've ever read, but one of the best books on any subject.
"The Umpire Strikes Back" by former Major League umpire Ron Luciano. Another funny and very informative book. This is the tale of a huge baseball fan who happens to become an Umpire and gets to hang out with his baseball heroes. Fantastic read!
"My Turn at Bat" by Ted Williams. The guy was truly bigger than life. This is a must read. This guy was an American hero. Secondly, he was probably the best hitter who ever lived. This guy is NOT AFRAID to give you his opinions.
"All My Octobers" by Mickey Mantle. Not as great a read, but you get Mickey's accounting of his World Series experiences. Every Mantle fan should enjoy this.
"Juiced" by Canseco. Still the only book I am aware of where a player who used steroids talks about it.
Plenty of others, but those come to mind off the top of my head. The first two are simply great books.
Good stuff, thanks Joe. It's hockey, not baseball, but another book that should always be in a list under that "Horse's Mouth" category is "The Game" by Ken Dryden.
I love hockey!
Just bought the book on eBay, $5.00 delivered.
Looking forward to reading it.
Thank you!
Glad to hear it! I am certain that you will love it.
"Juiced" was an interesting read. Read it 2 years ago. Doug Harvey's book on his baseball umpiring career was good as well.
Maybe someday we'll get a book on the history of drugs in sports.
Keeping players on the field has always been a priority, until mores change a bit and the mob latches on to the next thing destroying civilization.
As for valuations. I think that the demand will come for the 90s cards of Jeter and Rodriguez especially with the condition sensitivity of those examples mentioned.