1994 UD SP Alex, 1992 Pinnacle Manny,
olb31
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Both are selling for such a small amount. The Alex goes for $50 in psa 8 and a psa 10 1992 pinnacle manny goes for around $100. What the crap? Are these cards totally undervalued? Too much supply? The Alex Sp card is like the UD griffey or the 1993 sp jeter. All three were/are iconic.
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I personally believe the SP A Rod is way undervalued. But I also understand people have very strong opinions about his career based on all the steroid allegations.
The one that baffles me is the 1993 SP Jeter. That is an iconic card of an iconic player and 8's can currently be had for around $325. If you look at the population report on the SP Jeter it is actually very similar to the population report for the 1986 Fleer Jordan. I know Jeter is not Jordan but Jeter is probably the most iconic (not the best, the most iconic) player of his generation. I think the Jeter may be the most undervalued modern card in the hobby.
based on just pure baseball stats and ability, AROD has to be in the Top 10 of All-time. Bonds cards seem to sell pretty decent and AROD isn't far behind Barry, if not equal to Barry in ability. Puzzling.
1992 Pinnacle Nolan Ryan and Ken Griffey Jr cards sell for more than Manny's rookie. Absolutely absurd. I am a Dodger fan so this has nothing to do with it's "my team."
it cant be a mystery to you. I mean, you must know why the rookies of those 2 all time greats are so low. they both tested positive multiple times and the general public still hates ped users.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Not just ped users, jerk ped users.
I think a lot of people who are investing big $ in cards stay away from certain players regardless of their numbers. I know I would
of course i know why. but they let bagwell in and sheffield got close, bonds and clemens rookies sell for right much.
manny helped boston overcome history, twice. arod was just a beast and currently a commentator.
heck gooden and strawberry cards pretty good too.
it just seems some roid players pay the price and others don't.
heck even oj cards sell for a good amount. arod and manny didn't do that.
OJ is still in the football HOF. He did something worse.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
I don't think Bagwell or Clemens ever failed a test, but they are guilty in a lot of people's minds. Seems unfair to me, but in the (some) investors thoughts you avoid even guys who might be innocent.
What I think is a shame is that if Bonds and Arod had stayed clean, they might have been the two best players ever, or at least legitimately in the top 5.
Gooden and Strawberry are a little different, their issues probably shortened their careers, so I don't think they benefitted from drugs. Two more great talents kind of wasted.
You can go on and on about certain players who are overvalued and undervalued.
If I was an investor, I would stick with the "Blue Chip" players and avoid guys like Bonds and Arod. Sheffield also suffers from several issues.
Rafael Palmeiro has some bigger key stats than Manny and Sheffield, plus 3000+ hits, but he might be more hated than ARod or Bonds.
^Very true^
Good job on Palmeiro, another fantastic player. So we are just supposed that all these guys played. That from 1992 through 2007 baseball didn't really exist?
Supposed to forget.
Canseco, Palmeiro, Sheffield, Mcgwire, sosa, ramirez, Clemens, AROD. These are some of the biggest names of all-time, just to forget about. Mauer and Helton, don't even come close to any of these guys. In fact the general public has no idea who Mauer and helton even are. But they know just about all the ones mentioned above.
And Joe, could be right, just don't collect them because their "might' be roid issues. Just seems silly to me. Mcgwire and Sosa pretty much saved baseball in the 90's. Without them, Ichiro, Pujols and Trout might not be that important.
Pete Rose was asked if Roger Clemens should be in the HOF. He said 7 cy Youngs come on.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
Don't get me started on Pete. LOL!! Feels like there are just about as many HOFers who can't get in as ones that should and are in
Cool story. You're hopefully learning that there's more to a player's worth than their stats.
Would those mentioned cheats would have achieved those great numbers without "help"? And if they did, would they have displaced the Mantles,Aarons,Mays in baseball's pecking order?
I know someone who really cheated the Astros, ya'll have any problem with those players? That's what REAL cheating is. Altuve, Verlander and more. People worry about taking PED's more than real cheating. Here's a clue for everyone. If you are in the pros, you are probably doing something to make yourself better or to continue on with your career. I played college football at a DI major university and a large %, of all sports, take something.
You are extremely naive to believe that college and pro athlete's "Just lift weights", to get better. There is way too much money involved to "just get a few swings in" every day - approach.
That's the shame of it. Guys like Bonds, ARod and Clemens were already great players but their egos made them fly too close to the sun. I bet all three would have been HOFers without PEDs.
Canseco, Palmeiro, Sheffield, Mcgwire, sosa, ramirez, Clemens, AROD - All HOFERS. If Mauer can get in, Jose should have been a lock.
I guess I don't buy into taking PED's makes you a skilled baseball player. Powerlifters probably take stuff that doesn't mean they can throw 100 mph fastballs or be able to hit 100 MPH fastballs. Just makes you stronger. Their are huge differences in raw strength vs skill.
But stealing people's plays (pitches, hits - signs), is definitely cheating. and does effect the game. If Lou F. (the hulk) went to bat for the Dodgers in his hay day (1980 or so), I doubt that would have helped LA.
People choose whether they want to give it weight or not. The one that gets me the most is David Ortiz. People want to ignore that one so much. Because they liked him. We wont count that. He tested positive but you know uh maybe it was a false test. Sosa and Bonds were vilified because of how large they got. Hat size. Any negative thing you could throw their way to discount them it was done. Bonds never failed a test. Ortiz did. Not saying Bonds did not do PEDs. Just saying passing tests was easy to do. Ortiz did not pass. First ballot. You could dismiss the Clemens allegations the same way it was done with Ortiz. Ortiz was outstanding when he was 35 and older. Hit .315 with 38 HRs at age 40 and noone said a word. No red flags there. Who does that at that age with no PEDs? Well Nelson Cruz and he was totally...oh wait. Barry Bonds.
Its hard to tell why it matters more for some people. Palmeiro its like it invalidated him. He never existed. He got the full force of it for some reason. 500 HR 3000 hits are kind of impressive but he was dismissed. I think sometimes baseball says you can do it. You just cant be the best. Bonds and Clemens no. You were too good. Top 10 players of all-time. Cant let them into the HOF. Scarlet letter 212th? Okay sure. If we like you. If you have the amount of friends Palmeiro does, sorry, not you. McGwire, you broke a record once, no not you.
Nice post Ulysses, This is the type of answer/response I was looking for from the board. I think Bagwell was in the mix too. Instead of just trying to guess or say he did it or the next dude did it, just awesome either all of them did it or none of them did it. Make no sense to pick and choose.
Nolan Ryan. Rickey Henderson. Cal Ripken. Lebron James. Why the pass for some?
exactly!!
Respectfully what are you two doing? Why the Salem witch hunts?
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
If any of you watched the congressional hearing where McGwire, Palmiero, Sosa, and Canseco appeared, it was embarassing for the first three, which is why I think they are villified more than others.
McGwire repeatedly wasn't there to talk about the past. He didn't admit useage and didn't deny it either, but continued to deflect.
Sosa pretended not to understand English and was able to skirt direct questions becuase of a language barrier.
Palmiero put up his finger and said he did not use PEDs, period.
Interesting.
I saw this and it was obvious McGwire was guilty, he refused to talk about the "past".
Sosa faked not knowing what was going on, another indication of guilt and Palmiero came out aggressively stating his innocence. He was actually convincing.....until he tested positive shortly after. Made him look pretty bad.
Yeah, that is why Palmiero has been hit the hardest of all of them. His aggressive denials, in retrospect after his positive test, made him look arrogant and cocky, in addition to a flat out liar.
So you're saying that if a guy says he didn't do it, that's an indicator of guilt? It seems pretty understandable that he would be aggressive considering how all of this has gone down. These guys names have pretty much been ruined. Proof or not. If there is no proof wouldn't accusations be defamation? Many of these guys have surely lost out on tons of money.
I remember the case against Palmiero being really weak. Like, he had a story that was backed up by his doctor and medical records or something. I've never heard anybody talk about all the tests he passed. These guys are tested a ton aren't they?
if it comes from the media, i wouldn't believe much of it.
Not sure if you are responding to me, but as I said, I thought his denial was pretty believable at the time.
"These guys" chose to cheat and got a lot of benefits from it, financial and popularity. Now they are paying the price.
The case against Palmiero was certainly not weak, he tested positive for stanozolol. He now says his wife injected him with vitamins from a tainted vial he got from Tejada. I suppose that's possible but he's still responsible for what's in his body. Funny how "these guys" all were injecting vitamins.
I don't know if you bothered to read Canseco's book, but pretty much everything he claimed ended up being proven true.
He wouldn't tell them anything anyway. Kind of like the baseball players didn't tell them anything either. Schilling had made comments prior to the hearing about players using PED and them looking like cartoon characters as a result, and then he backtracked in Congress:
"WAXMAN: Well, let me ask Mr. Schilling. Did players know? You‘ve spoken out against this. Did you know that other players were using steroids?
SCHILLING: I think there was suspicion. I don‘t think any of us knew. Contrary to the claim of former players, I think, while I agree it‘s a problem, I think the issue was grossly overstated by some people, including myself.
WAXMAN: You grossly overstated it?
SCHILLING: I—absolutely.
WAXMAN: Why did you do that?
SCHILLING: I think at the time it was a very hot situation and we were all being asked to comment on it, and I think my opinion at the time was to go with someone who maybe had a better idea than me, but given the chance to reflect—when I made comments to that effect afterwards, when I look back on what I said, I‘m not sure I could have been any more grossly wrong."
@olb31 original point, I think you make some valid points. Some are certainly treated more harshly than others. Manny was a beloved player by fans more so than even guys like Bonds(as many saw Bonds as a tool), yet Manny is an afterthought despite being an amazing hitter. Manny's teammate gets a pass and is in the HOF.
Sheffield is right on the cusp of the HOF and Manny was clearly better than Sheffield.
Arod was always viewed as a tool even before steroid scandals, but his career is on par with Bonds. So they are equal tools and equal careers, yet Arod is downgraded more than Bonds.
Arod is still involved in baseball though and his perception could possibly change. I think it is a good call taking a look at his RC.
I believe this 100% I have a friend who had access to the Patriots locker room back in the early 80s. He said MANY of those guys were on gear. and LOTS of it. He told me that one of my vary favorite Patriots was a user, though never "caught" He said that Hog Hannah was definitely on PED, and before games he can remember that Hannah would take something that made him shake all over. He believed it was some sort of amphetamine or upper that he took right before game time.
I am sure that the vast majority of our "heros" were users of one thing or another. at this point, it doesnt really bother me that much. you can believe that modern day players are also using. the thing is, the drug makers are always a few steps ahead of the testers. what they are using now, will only be "against the rules" years from now when it is identified and there are tests to detect it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
other than a failed test or an admission, it is utterly impossible to know 100% who did and who did not use. Lots of players have suspicions or allegations against them, but that is not proof of use. there are also more popular players who have never had anyone question their "cleanness" completely unfair. I think that the steroid era should be judged as just another era. Palmiero and others should not be thrown out because they tested positive. Bagwell, Piazza, Clemens and others should also not be discounted because of suspicions or allegations, neither of which are proof of anything.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What about arod and David Ortiz? Different rules for the MLB and media apparently.
Craig44 - right on the money bro.
I agree, just picked the Jeter up!
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
You've got to think that AROD Manny, that time frame will pick up eventually.
Arod SP and electric diamonds
Manny opc, gold and gold winner, Pinnacle
Thome cards are really cheap - I like the 1992 Leaf Gold and 1992 Topps gold and winner
1991 Bowman's are awesome, but way too many 10's.
Jim Edmonds, Jeff Kent, too.
That would indeed be an incredible feat. Catfish Hunter died in 1999.
Nice!!!!
I didnt' make that assertion that if a guy denies, it's an indicator of guilt. If you had watched the hearing, I think you would understand where I'm coming from. I grew up a Canseco/McGwire fan, so I was as big of an apologist for McGwire than most. However, after watching the hearing, it was disappointing because you could infer his usage by how he was responding (or not responding) to questions. I agree that Palmiero was the most convincing becasue if I was falsely accused, I would also come out guns-a-blazing like he did. However, his confirmed usage made him look like a total jerk after his testamony.
I would say that I find what the A$$tros did to be much more dispicable.
How many times was Palmeiro tested during his career? Did he fail his only test?
In the court of public opinion, it doesn't matter. The thing people are left with is the vision of him in court, and then the embarassment of a failed test. Not saying it's fair, but that's the way it goes.
To take your argument, we can look at it the opposite way with all these guys - they may have passed a bunch of tests, but what were they taking that went under the radar or was not being tested for?
I think the line has been drawn with the guys who vigorously denied useage, but then either positive tests came out or there was enough circumstantial evidence to say that they, more likely than not, used. Again, not saying it's fair, but that seems to be a common theme. I think had the Bonds, Clemens, McGwires, Sosas, A-Rods, Mannys, Palmieros, etc came out and admitted they used or detailed how they used, public perception might have swung toward a more favorable opinion of them. The arrogance of the denail is met by the court of public opinion with equal opposition.
Maybe people a older than I am are left with that vision. I've never seen that. Also whatever was caught on video is only a very small percentage of the event. And what you're being shown you're only seeing because some editors wanted you to see that.
I've heard that steroids have advanced to the point where they can't even be tested for anymore.
I think it's pretty significant if the guy were tested 20 or 30 times and failed once. I would think it would be more of an indicator that something is wrong with whatever he is using. These guys are all hugging the line. They're being paid millions of dollars. They're gong to use anything they think is legal. Maybe he should have asked his doctor about these vitamins. This guy has 500 home runs and 3000 hits. If some drug made it so he could do that, sign me up. That's Captain America kind of stuff. Unless there's some other explanation.
It's also interesting that every time I hear one of these stories the, facts, change. If I search the internet it's real hard to find good information. I doubt Canseco's book is 100 percent accurate. Probably shouldn't be considered the only source of information going in to the future.
How does everyone view players who took a substance before it was banned?
Mike Piazza admittedly took Andro in the 90s before it was collectively bargained a banned substance.
Keep in mind, collectively bargained league-wide testing was not implemented until the 2005 season. Before the 2005 season, it was all permitted.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Craig is on top of it. Great question.
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Canseco's book is the only source of information that comes from a player who used steroids.
Since he has never been sued by any of the players he said also used, I'm assuming he's telling the truth.
Did you ever read either of his books?
I'll bet many here haven't bothered.
What do you think them suing would accomplish? I don't think either side can prove anything. Well, maybe except a failed test. Bunch of lawyers get rich. I don't think 1 test should decide this guys future. I don't understand how he could have only been tested once. There should be more test results.
We got tested weekly when I played college football. But they wouldn't test the ones they knew were using, at least not very often. I just picked up an SGC 9.5 1992 opc Manny for $35. seemed like a very low price to me.