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Should The Buffalo Nickel Be Graded By A Different Standard?
Walkerlover
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I was just wondering if the Iconic Buffalo Nickel should be graded by a different standard. Most coins are graded by the obverse with some points potentially be deduced from the final grade for extra reverse contact marks, and in a few rare cases the reverse may lift the grade a tiny bit.
My point is I think the reverse Buffalo side is arguably more important and looked at than the obverse by many collectors. There is a reason it’s called a Buffalo Nickel by collectors and coin guides not Indian Head Nickel. So perhaps the reverse should be the dominant side or the grading should be 50/50. I think the raised Buffalo is not so well protected on the reverse and might not cause much more inflated grades. Any thoughts. Just my humble opinion.
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No
Unless you have an odd strike or some other anomaly, any coin should be graded as a whole, not by one supposedly dominant side. Even if you have a coin struck on one side by a fresh die and the other by a worn die, after circulating for awhile both sides will have about equal amounts of commercial wear.
Well it is a fact that the obverse of any coin is the determining factor for a third party grade. The reverse can only really lower the grade not improve the grade. Example MS 65 obverse MS 63 reverse = MS 64 grade. MS 65 obverse MS 67 reverse = MS 65 grade
And all these years I thought a ms65 Obv MS63 Rev = MS63, learn something every day, thank you
I have noticed over the years, a lot of grade creep re: the completeness of the Buffalo's horn and what a Buff nickel should grade vs. what the horn looks like. I wouldn't mind hearing from old-timers "who were there" if the Buff nicks were really hard to define as true VF or better, if the horn wasn't complete.
There is a reason it’s called a Buffalo Nickel by collectors and coin guides not Indian Head Nickel
What about the "Lincoln Memorial" Cent?? Look at all the Gold coins that are referred to as "Eagles" which is the primary design of the reverse. I think coins pick up a name which the public or collectors most easily associate with and then we're stuck with it.
I've always thought that they should be graded by another standard.
Perhaps adding another designation, such as 'Strike' to the process. Much the same as the added designations used in grading ancients.
The branch mint strikes can vary by such a great degree, it would help a lot.
Different standard? Hmmmm...no. But maybe a Full Horn designation?
Could you provide proof of this "fact"?
I don't know of ANY respected TPG that uses the obverse for "the determining factor" with the reverse only lowering a grade. They look at both sides. Period.
In fact, the Buffalo nickel that you point to is proof of what I'm saying. Two key grading points are the horn and tail of the Bison.
I've wondered what a worn Buffalo nickel would look like if the design had been struck incuse. Full horn will always equal XF reverse in old school circles. Having said this, the Buffalo nickels series has it's weakly/poorly struck issues with some years being notorious for poor quality Buffalo nickels. A carefully assembled complete set of Buffalo nickels in any collector grade is a set to behold, but especially so if the nickels all have at least 1/2 of the Buffalo's horn present. 1/2 horn is F reverse. At least 1/2 horn seen for the teens and twenties issues, full horns seen for the 30's issues makes for a nice set of these, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The best proof I have is the respected opinion of the experienced former grader and respected numismatist Mark Feld who has stated to other forum members that the reverse can lower the grade of a coin while rarely increasing its grade except perhaps for special toning or cameo. How often do you see a MS 65 obverse Walker with a mint state 67-68 reverse grade higher than 65, almost never.
The fact is you won’t accept the truth that the grade is really established by the obverse and possibly lowered by the reverse. Show me a coin that improved in grade by a superior reverse and I will sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
What you stated isn't quite the same as what Mark has said. The obverse is weighted more but it is not the sole determining factor. And "rarely" increasing it is different than only lowering it.
And if you've got a MS62 reverse and a 64 obverse and the coin grades 62 is that the reverse lowering the grade or the obverse failing to raise the grade.
How about the 1922 no-P Lincoln cent? I primarily used the reverse to grade Lincolns as a youngster, but they were generally low-grade Lincolns.
I grade SLHs using both sides, but with the obverse as the primary determinant of grade. I check the reverse for borderline calls. A nice reverse will push it to the next grade.
Shouldn't you GIVE me the Brooklyn Bridge? You could sell it to me now. It's only a prize of you give it to me.
Another good example. Wheat ear separation is a key grading element.
It becomes a question of emphasis. In most cases, the grade will be the grade of the lower side. The other side will occasionally give you a small boost, but it rarely significantly raises the grade.
It is true that the obverse is more likely to give you a boost than the reverse but that's not what the OP appears to be saying.
Both sides come into play.
On a Buff, the reverse will tell the tale almost all of the time.
Most of the key grading areas are on the reverse. That's not to say that the obverse doesn't count. More grading PUPs are on the reverse side, though.
There is no strict rule on grading, as it is all just an opinion anyway. But if a grader gets a better impression of both the obverse and reverse as a whole, it could influence his final decision.
I personally take the entire coin into account.........including the "flash" factor and overall look for uncirculated specimens and the amount of wear on BOTH sides of the coin,
Strike also comes into play but doesn't drastically affect the final decision. I've seen horribly struck coins that have attained 63 and above status, but they are not prevalent.
At least that's how I see it.
Pete
The reverse lowering the grade
No - not at all. Soon there will be safe grading AI, not to worry.
Except it's not. It's the grader assigning the lower side as the overall grade because they look at both sides. If the obverse is 62 and the reverse is 64 you still get a 62.
Now, you are more likely to get a 63 in the obverse 64/ reverse 62 than the other way around. That is what @MFeld was saying. But in neither case is the reverse irrelevant. It is more likely that you get a 62 in both cases.
It usually is. There are some times when one side will raise the overall grade but you usually end up with the lower side's grade. You have to have an exceptional side to raise the overall grade.
Here's a curious example of the dominance of the obverse vs reverse in grading. The obverse shows uneven wear such that the upper torso is a G, while the shield and lower drapery are VF+. Meanwhile, the reverse shows even, VF35-EF40 wear. The grade is F15. MY guess is one could submit this coin three different times and get three different grades. I guessed VF30 and chalked up the weak upper torso to grease.
Interesting coin. A coin that shows that both sides matter.
I don't have the patience to go back and find it, but back when I was putting my Buffalo set together (that I sold in 2014), I posted on the forum that I thought the reverse should be the dominant side for grading Buffalo nickels. Coinguy1 (MFeld) set me straight that even for Buffalo nickels, the obverse is the principal side for grading.
I don't think that means that the reverse can only lower a grade, just that in most cases the obverse will be more important in determining the final grade.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
While each coin is different, I disagree rather strongly with your above comments - at least with respect to coins graded 60 and higher.
Because a coin’s obverse is weighted more heavily, I believe the 65/63 example would be more likely than not to grade at least 63+. On the other hand, in the case of a 63/65, the assigned grade would probably be limited to 63. In any event, a 65/63 typically has a much better chance at an assigned grade above 63 than a 63/65 does.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Regardless of grade, I really like how that coin's surfaces present. Neat coin!
Thanks! Here's its predecessor with a similar look for comparison. It's graded VF35, which I agree with as the obverse shows VF35 wear while the reverse is EF40. I have no idea what's going on to the left of the date. Perhaps a repair?
I agree that the 65/63 has a better chance at 63+/64 relative to the 63/65. {Start with the agreement!
}
I assume you are suggesting that for circ grades, a 30/40 or 40/30 is more likely than not to end up 30 not 35.
As for UNC grades, I think we're also in agreement that you start at the grade of the lower side, do we not? So a 65/63 and 63/65 start at a 63 not a 65?
If so, then our only small disagreement is statistical: does a 65/63 have a greater than 50% or less than 50% chance of being 63+ or higher? I'm certainly not going to argue the point as I don't have statistics either way.
Which returns me to my original objection to the characterization by the OP who said: "Well it is a fact that the obverse of any coin is the determining factor for a third party grade." Would you agree or disagree with that statement?
I find "the determining factor" to be overstating the obverse bias. I think this is especially true for certain series in circ grades.
Happy Thanksgiving!!!
First of all, thank you and happy Thanksgiving to you, too.
I look at far more 60 and better grade coins than circulated ones. However, in the case of a 30/40 or 40/30 coin, I don’t necessarily think it more likely than not that each ends up 30, not 35.
For unc. grades, I start at the grade of the obverse (as opposed to that of the “lower side”) and proceed from there. And the reverse is far more likely to reduce than raise my initial grade.
I do believe that a 65/63 has a much greater than 50% chance of grading 63+ or higher.
I disagree with the statement “Well it is a fact that the obverse of any coin is the determining factor for a third party grade." But I’d agree with it if it read “Well it is a fact that the obverse of any coin is given considerably more weight than the reverse in determining a third party grade."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can live with all of that. Lol.
Happy holidays!!!
I think each year and each mint for that year would have different grading standards! A 1937 should be graded different than one from 1926.
Another neat coin! I don't see a repair there in the negative sense; I see a "repair" where I would bet a black glob of something (tar?) or whatever sat there for decades, was nudged off with a fingernail, and sat for yet more decades until the present day. Just part of a coin's life -- doesn't detract from the appeal for me.
I think we are in basic agreement JM, just a matter of semantics. I never said both sides of a coin aren’t fully considered, it’s just that the obverse will always be the deciding decision of the coins full grade, with the reverse usually being the modifier either neutral or slightly downgrading the obverse grade, or in exceptional cases of impressive toning possibly lifting the obverse grade. I own an exceptional MS 65 Walker MS 65 CAC with incredible luster and a hammered strike as usual for a 1943 slightly distracting line through but the reverse is amazing 67-68 look which maybe pushed the sticker somewhat. Exception to the rules
That the way it is you can spin it any way you want.
Fair enough.
Happy Thanksgiving
Happy Thanksgiving 😊
YES!!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Why??
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Because of this..........In my opinion.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Is that a scratch or cut above the Indians head you are referring to?
Because of “this”, as in what? AU58 looks reasonable, regardless of which side receives greater weight.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What Mark said is the way all coins are graded with the obverse the principal side for grading and that’s the current standard. My thought was perhaps the Buffalo Nickel might be considered sort of a unique situation where the reverse side should be at least equally weighted
. I don’t think there are any Buffalo Nickel collectors who would buy a coin that doesn’t have an attractive Buffalo reverse image. When I buy a Buffalo nickel I look at the Buffalo side at least equally in making my decision, not so for other 20th century coins
Not sure where you're looking but there are no cuts of scratches on this coin. It's straight graded.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
As of the grade. I keep thinking this coin is way under grader compared to others I've seen. But you're probably right. If it was a significant date, I might be tempted to cross it........ but it's not.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
.
Because of what I believe is a low grade.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Another coin where the reverse seems to be primary for determining the grade is VF-XF Barber halves.
The way it's pictured, it could garner AU or MS guesses, if it were raw. Unless holding the coin in hand, I sometimes hesitate to guess at slider or some flavor of unc, when it comes to late date Buffs, especially as the photos can be taken to enhance their best angle.
I know. Those are the best pictures I can take. It's not a show stopper. I guess it is what it is.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )