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How did really old red coppers stay red?
lsica
Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭✭
How did really old red coppers stay red in the years before air tight or even air limiting coin holders? Did you have to keep them in dark closed and inert containers (what was even inert back then? Maybe glass?) and never take them out to look at them?
Philately will get you nowhere....
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Good question. I've often wondered the same thing.
Encasing them in shellack for 200 years and then removing the shellack?
Viola, mint red old coppers.
The braggert guy with the cane who frequented the bidboard at Chino About Rare Coins claimed he bought some stuff from France that would make copper market accectable Red, I found out his selling number and avoided buying his coins. I do believe he did get some stuff past the TPG's.
The proof is in the pudding...............
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Artificially Red....
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Chemistry.
Dave
It seems like some old copper coins don't tone for some reason. It probably has something to do with what the mint used to clean the planchets and how well they rinsed them. After that it was pure dumb luck. That not to say that your luck won't run out.
Most of them have been "enhanced" however. Many of them are going to turn, sometimes in a short period of time. I've been burned on that. That's the reason why I won't buy them.
I have seen some conder tokens with some original red. I think it can happen and may have happened for some pieces. How many are legit? No idea. Probably a rare set of circumstances are required.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
This 1784 British half penny has traces of red. I am pretty sure it's original.
Ditto for this 1773 Virginia half penny, which has more red. These are hoard coins, and Mint State pieces are not unusual.
The environment/location that it is stored in could be a major factor.
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Maybe they could be waxed? Or maybe they could be in a dark, dry container surrounded by other coins. Just some guesses.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON
Prior to the invention and widespread distribution of plastics in the mid 20th century, there was no such thing as an "airtight container" for coins. I suppose theoretically one could have put coins into a glass jar and sealed it with wax, or even had a glassblower seal it off completely, but why would anybody have done such a thing, since coins sealed in a glass jar can neither be used as money nor viewed as collectables? Coin collectors generally kept their coins in "coin cabinets", made from certain woods like mahogany that didn't out-gas any sulfurous chemicals. But a coin cabinet alone wouldn't stop a copper coin from darkening, since air and moisture could still easily get in.
Almost all of the 200+-years-old bright-red copper and bronze coins, were lacquered for most of their history. There wasn't really any other way of stopping a piece of copper/bronze from turning not-red. Shellac (a natural plastic derived from the secretions of wood-boring insects native to India) was a main form of preservation; plain old beeswax (another natural plastic) was another. Various oils and liquid waxes (paraffins) were also used, though these sometimes contained sulfur and/or otherwise allowed the coins to go dark.
These coatings are easily removed with solvents - shellac readily dissolves in ethanol, for example - so the coins can now continue their existence unvarnished and wrapped in modern plastic, whether that be slab or 2x2. If a lacquered coin is submitted direct to a TPG, they generally won't grade it, but if submitted through a conservation service, they will remove the lacquer then straight-grade the coin.
Ironically, this process probably does more long-term harm to the coins than simply leaving them lacquered would. Slabs are less airtight than a nice thick layer of lacquer. The lacquer has worked to preserve the coin for 200+ years, and would probably keep working for a thousand more years before eventually degrading. A red copper coin in a slab or 2x2 won't last anywhere near that long. Shellac is still used today, and is actually gaining popularity as a trendy ecologically-friendly substitute for people who reject modern petroleum-based plastics and waxes.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Despite its name, "Renaissance Wax" hasn't been around since the Renaissance; it's a petroleum-based wax that was invented by the British Museum in the 1950s.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Copper colored paint?
What do you mean Bill by enhanced? In what way?
The best way is to dip a copper or bronze coin. The trouble is the exposed virgin metal is very susceptible to toning over again.
The worst I have seen were a couple of Proof Indian cents that got “the treatment.” The coin doctors actually succeeded in getting into slabs. They weren’t rinsed properly. The coins disintegrated in the holders leaving nothing but dust.
Same reason that some silver dollars are fully white while others show a wide range of color and intensity.
I believe that it's all about what the coin was and wasn't exposed to through air and direct contact over the years since striking.
Many Morgan silver dollars spent close to a century in bags away from the air and light. That's why they are bright white. Most of the legitimate toned ones had one side facing the bag. The chemicals in the bag caused to the coins to tone, sometimes with attractive colors. Of course coin doctors have added to that population.
Once again I’m going to take a minority view, sharing some thoughts/observations, but without explanations.
My friend @DeplorableDan just taught me a new phrase that I’ll use here: “Please holster your tomatoes” lol.
Here are three red coins that have each been FULLY “exposed” for well over a hundred years. As noted, I don’t believe having it holdered for 15 or 25 extra years vs just a few years provides any real extra physical stability, but only provides a false sense of psychological comfort.
Steve
Over 170 years old:
Almost 160 years old:
Over 120 years old:
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@winesteven, great explanation. Would totally agree with you on this.
Again, I have no explanatory "proof", but only my observations, and my personal conclusions from those observations.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@winesteven For the sake of clarity are we starting to think that perhaps a red coin or a red/brown coin will turn BECAUSE of the holder?
That's not what I'm suggesting. I agree we all see plenty of examples of coins that turn darker in their holders.
MY guess, is that happens due to the way those coins are currently stored, compared to how they were stored for the 100+ years before being slabbed. Let's not forget that the VAST majority of copper coins turned brown during the time BEFORE being slabbed. Very few were able to retain an original red color or red/brown with a lot of red.
So does the slabbing cause the coin to all of a sudden (over several years) turn darker? My guess is no. As noted, my guess is the way the coin was stored after slabbing that causes it to turn. Also as noted, I have absolutely NO proof of this. This is just my personal belief from what we all see. I admit i could be wrong.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Good stuff Steve. I've said before and I'll say again, I've been collecting RD & RB copper for 45 years and have never had one "turn" om me. I can't believe that I'm in the minority on this.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
I'm imagining great old numismatic rarities deemed Red being stored in a big vat of UNC modern cents that would serve as a sacrificial oxidation sink, kinda like the guy with the garage full of cents and a red Ferrari
A look at the dates of the Red Braided Hair Cents from 1839-1857 might provide some kind of evidence. The PCGS pop report for those dates lists a total of:
--- 785 coins graded MSRD.
--- of that total, 749 are dated 1850-1857.
--- of that total, 454 are from two dates, 1853 and 1855/upright 55.
I'm not well acquainted with these issues but I do know that kegs of coins were found in bank vaults during the 1933 "Bank Holiday" undertaken during the Great Depression. I seem to recall that there were entire kegs of 1855's. I also remember the "Randall Hoard" and 22 coins dated 1820 and graded MSRD by PCGS could have come from that. As far as IHC's are concerned, those graded MSRD could have been stored in bags for a long time. That might help explain where some Red Cents could have come from and how they maintained their color for many years.
Still, I have always believed that many of the Red Large Cents we see have been helped, the appearance is unnatural to me.
As to in-holder stability, any foreign substance on a coin's surface can cause it to change. That is accentuated once a coin is trapped inside of a capsule.
Decades ago I found this group of coins on ebay. The description read that they were lacquered. Apparently that word was anathema to most buyers because I bought them for very little money. I'm very happy with them the as they are.
I am one that is strongly biased to holders that are 10 years plus for red copper. My main reasoning is fear that the coin was miss handled either in grading or in preparation for grading because obviously, you’re correct part of that they’ve stayed red all this time…
Years ago I worked for a dealer that sent a bunch of 1940s wheat cents to NGC and got a lot of 66 and 67 red coins.
Over the next few years, I checked and found that most of them were very dark red-brown, and other coins that we had in stock, in older holders remained bright red.
I can only assume that they were either miss handled by him in the preparation for grading or were miss handled in the grading room at NGC.
I agree though a lot of these red coins in the new holders are probably going to be just fine.
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In a previous life, used to work quite a bit with copper. Copper starts to turn when exposed to O2.
I have a hard time believing that 100+ yr old copper hasn't been 'helped'. Or kept away from oxygen.
King Farouk used shellac on copper coins to arrest oxidation. It might have been more common than just him. I have long suspected a lot of the Red copper on the market is not exactly original though, especially pieces with that unsettling orange hue.
So please share with me your theory of exactly HOW 120+ year old Red copper IHC’s get straight graded, and many also get approved by CAC, and many get approved by Rick Snow, the worlds foremost expert on IHC’s? The TPG’s reject many coins for artificial toning, Rick rejects many “Blue” IHC’s, and CAC rejects a large majority of Gold coins due to various surface treatments. Yes, they each make occasional errors in both directions, but the pass rate for so many Red IHC’s still needs a logical explanation based on your comment.
Please share your thoughts on how this occurs?
Thanks.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
As long as the lacquer is removable, I would have no problem with it. It would actually give me some piece of mind, knowing that it was protected (not as much as a slabbed coin though).
Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON
I used to buy numerous Federal Reserve bank rolls and US Mint bags of cents dating from the 1930’s to the 1960’s starting in 1964 when I was 11 years old.
I listened to the old timers explaining their methods of preserving red copper coins from the 1920’s and 1930’s (at the age of 11!)
as well as observed the old time methods used since the 1920’s to help preserve copper coins as full red. They include:
1) aluminum foil wrapping around the roll then wrapping it with the paper wrapping. The aluminum would corrode after 70 years showing that it sacrificed itself to save the red copper coins
2) keeping the US Mint bags intact helped to preserve the cents well inside the middle of the bags as full red as not exposed to oxygen..
3) keeping copper far away from the warm and salty ocean air which is ruinous to red copper coins.
4) glass tubes
5) mineral oil previously olive oil which was inferior.
6) vacuum sealed environment
7) simply storing 100 rolls of unopened Federal Reserve bank rolls of uncirculated cents inside a USMint bag was successful in preserving at least 80% of the couns as full red as long as temperature remained stable and not too humid.
8) avoiding extreme hot and cold variation in temperatures such as attic storage.
9) avoiding extreme hot and cold safe deposit boxes in thin outer bank walls facing north OR south.
10) sprinkling cheap sacrificial escort copper coins to absorb the
11) clean air not polluted air
12) the mini thingie (forget the name at the moment) inserted in safe deposit box or safe to absorb the offending “bad air.”
13) later on….intercept boxes.
14) more but too tired to recall.
I did recall older wax and shellac methods as well but did not like them as it required removing the original skin of the copper coin when removing shellac or wax.
I did see some paper rolls encased in wax as well which had mixed results.
This does not explain how NDN cents from nearly a century earlier survived as fully red .
I think Oreville answered the question better than I ever could. How they were stored and preserved.
I wasn't around in 1870 or 1930 to know how copper oxidation was dealt with. Surely some collector must have made notes on how to handle newly minted red copper. I'm not a researcher.
Yes, avoiding salty, warm air absolutely helped, as did many of the points made above. However, my main objection was the use of the quotes around ‘helped’, which to me, implied artificial chemical or other similar treatments is one of the main reasons we have RED coins today. I do agree things that minimized exposure to oxygen absolutely helped, but I don’t believe we have RED coins today because they were kept away from oxygen.
That’s my “Two Cents”, lol.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
There may be a bit of natural chemistry for the mix, aside from the obvious use of artificial treatments and cleansers. I don't know if it is has been directly observed for copper, so this is just a theory.
Aluminum stays shiny because the outermost atoms of the sheet or block will bond into aluminum oxide, as you might expect with exposure to the air, however the outermost layer of atoms somehow protects the layers beneath and is thin enough to be transparent to the human eye. In the event that the inner layers become exposed either by cutting the aluminum or brushing away the outermost layer with high energies (like from fire), then the formation of the protective layer of aluminum oxide starts all over again. If the layer is breached all together by high energies (again, fire!) then more of the aluminum is subjected to oxidation.
The same must occur with coins and the degrees to which they tone. Copper can oxidize and be forcibly turned to rust, but we don't see that thorough oxidation happen on coins, rather the outermost layers are all that are affected. Of course we see mention of that when a coin is dipped and fresh metal is exposed, thus this oxidized layer is essentially washed away so the process begins again.
We also know that copper, when alloyed such as bronze or brass, obtains different visual properties. What if the final mix used for a planchet is a factor in toning? Can the right balance of impurities prevent toning from becoming visible? I'll also add here that gold is in the same family on the periodic table as copper and has some of the best resistance to chemical bonding.
My theory for pieces that stay red is they have already toned in an ultra thin, protective layer that is too thin to be registered in visible light.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).
That's one type of coin that have a sunset on their guarantees at the grading services. I wonder whether cac has an unlimited guarantee on the copper and copper nickel coins they sticker?
My understanding is that CAC and CACG do NOT guarantee the color suffixes on the coins they sticker or grade. I agree with that position, as there's absolutely no doubt that some coins do indeed change in the holder from RD to RB.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996