Civil War Token F-54/296f Army Navy in silver - PCGS says damaged
Windycity
Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
Would like to hear other opinions about what might have happened to this token. I is a Army $ Navy Fuld-54/296f that has been doubled struck and has a flattening at about 9 o'clock. Even appears to show a die crack through the flattened area. The die crack shows no indication of flattening. Struck in silver and in my research, I find no other silver examples. Welcome opinions.
<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.mullencoins.com">Mullen Coins Website - Windycity Coin website
0
Comments
Just checking the reference book - Fuld assigns an R9 (est. 2-4 known).
It shows a raised line in the flattened area. There is no reason to think that line or the rest of the flattening happened at the same time the rest of the design was struck.
"Damaged" is the correct description for flattening that happened after the strike.
To me the "damage" looks to be caused by the 2nd strike. While it's not particularly attractive, I would've thought it to receive a straight grade.
Maybe an expert like @FredWeinberg could chime in or Mike from @NewEnglandRarities. Assuming this was struck in a screw press
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Interesting! I’m on the road for work, but will look at this more tonight! First glance, it is interesting and not convinced it is PMD, but I am the first to admit I’m not anywhere near an error expert. The silver pieces in CWTs have some oddities compared sometimes to their “regular” strike counterparts. I’m going to look at this some more and get back!
IMO the preponderance of the evidence is consistent with PMD. I see nothing that indicates the flattened area was formed during the striking process.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
@Windycity Any chance you have an edge picture. While the photo looks like PMD because of the flattening, what is interesting to me is the consistency of strike and the die break so clearly not flattened in that area. Silver CWTs are so rare, and mostly in early die states (before mass production). I have a suspicion of how this was struck, but I would love to see the edge around the flattened area. Is that part much thinner than the rest of the coin? I have seen a silver example of this also double struck, but without the anomaly shown here. I agree with @DCW, this is how it was made and I do not believe it is damaged, however we need an error expert to chime in here. The die crack is clearly unaffected by the flattened area. Also, the roughness in the planchet above would have been struck “out” and not there above the planchet crack if the die could reach there. Still, as an admitted novice on errors in general, I would default to the resident gurus; while it is odd, I think it is undamaged and as made.
I don’t have any reference books as I’m on the road, does this variety have that die crack on regular strikes of that obverse in other metals(copper)? If so, no chance it’s damaged, as flattening in that area would have distorted the die break. Notice that the break extends almost to the obverse bust, beyond where the flattening seems to be.
Someone check this, ugh.
I do not know if any of this will help - I drew what is close to a circle (my simple photo draw is for elipse so a little estimation in the roundness) around the obverse and reverse. The token does not appear as out of round with the circle drawn in as it does without, to me at least. Note, the reverse is more out of round and is seen in the obverse true view with what appears to be the reverse edge outside the obverse edge.
Something kind of cool - Also I noticed first on the reverse the letter Y and partial M below and right of the ARMY. So the first strike was shifted and rotated (about 30 degrees) from the second. Can also see this with the bottom of swords and the leaves. Note the leaf at 3 o/c, the right edge profile appears to match the one above it better. Then on the obverse the shift and rotate is seen with the feathers, a light line for the edge of the bottom hair curl and the lips on the jaw. Note, on the feathers the rotation would put the first feather (second strike) to the left of the impression (first strike) and then the shift would move it to the right where the impression is (I think
). This would match the bottom hair curl and lips.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I sincerely appreciate the comments and help. Here are more close up photos of the edge (though hard to ger through PCGS holder), the rough area on planchet, the die breaks and reverse noting what is at least a triple strike. Let me know if additional photos would be helpful.
If it was damaged enough to flatten the design, why wasn't the die crack also flattened? Perhaps it was struck on a tapered planchet.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Looking at the coin again, I am a bit confused about the reeded edges? I am unaware of any CWT with reeded edge except those struck of US coins. Looking for expert opinions on this.
Interesting thread.
It appears to be damaged.i don't think the thinner out of round area would have a reeded edge. To have reading it would need to remain in the collar and would be round. Broadstruck coins are a good example of what I am trying to explain.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Did you send it in to be graded as an error? Mr Sullivan is highly knowledgeable on error coins.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Did not submit as an error. Might have to do that.
Before sending this in again and paying for it to be graded as an error, why not ask Mr. Sullivan who is a member here for his assessment? There are a number of members here that may have knowledge on this tokens appearance.
@SullivanNumismatics
@FredWeinberg @ctf_error_coins
Regarding what @gumby1234 said: It is true for normal coins that the reeding would have to be put there while the planchet was in collar and struck, but what if the planchet for this token was prepared with the reeding separately?
Remember these were most likely struck on a screw press and lots of things could happen to flatten out that area.
I still think this was done during the striking process, but I'd love to hear from the error guys.
Good luck
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
The photos make the coin look like it is post mint damage, but it's a coin I'd have to see in hand to make a firm assessment. It's a double-strike for sure, and possibly has the damage under the 2nd strike, but as with many coins with potential pre-strike damage, you have to carefully examine them in person to figure them out. Sorry I can't be conclusive...
Jon, thanks. Happy to send it to you for your examination.
Many Civil War tokens, especially storecards, were struck with reeded edges. In fact so many storecards have reeded edges or both plain & reeded that the storecard catalog devotes a column describing the edge in the main description of each merchant. A significant number of merchants have tokens with both plain and reeded edges. If the edge is the only determinant of variety the catalog number notes this with an additional 1 at the end of the catalog # (-1a1, -6a1, etc.). There are hundreds of varieties with reeded edges.
Reeded edges on Patriotic CWTs are much less common. When a reeded edge occurs in the Patriotic series it is noted in the written description of the token and not in the catalog number. The catalog states (& I mostly concur) that the "reeded edge tokens are mainly numismatic strikes", Die sinker Horter abused the #54 die with several overstrikes, off-metal strikes and long use of the die with resulting die cracks & cuds. Most silver Patriotics were struck over dimes but a number of the made-to-order post-war numismatic strikes were done on regular silver planchets. A regular reeded silver planchet is not mentioned for the OP die combination.
Tokenpro, thanks for info. Very helpful. When I first purchased this token I thought it might be struck over a US dime but I can't find any evidence of a dimes devices except the reeded edge. Sill wonder if that might be the case and die sinker just kept striking planchet to erase dime devises and took it a bit too far... hence the "damage."