Been years since my last post but this is warranted
belz
Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
I’ve been submitting vintage to PSA for a very long time. It’s been a few years other than some occasional modern cards.
So, I have been sitting on a stack of 50 gorgeous 1975s great centering and sharp corners. Love the two-tone color vintage cards. Finally sent these in. In the past these 50 cards would easily get 8s and sprinkle in some 9s with maybe a 10 or two. Again, I’ve been doing this for a very long time.
My grades just came back and the heavy majority came back as a 6 with some 7s and a sprinkle of 8s and lower grades.
I am so fed up with how things have changed in this hobby and especially the grading standards. It’s no longer fun or worth the time and money and PSA will not get another penny from me. It’s literally that simple.
On the other hand it’s nice to have the cards encapsulated but these cards look just as good if not better than most 8s and 9s.
The grading portion of the hobby for an old timer (53yo) like me is sadly becoming a thing of the past.
Thanks for listening.
Comments
That is a real bummer. You have to wonder why this is happening. are they grading tougher because they are trying to drive people to crack and resub over and over? It would be a pretty big revenue stream. or are they protecting the pop reports?
I think it is safe to say the pops of the 75 Brett and Yount in 9 and 10 are pretty secure at this point.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I suspect the later. Making and protecting the market. This could backfire on PSA if some of the other TPG's grade fairly and the market actually accepts their opinion. I missed the grading train a long time ago. 95% of what I own is raw and for the foreseeable future will remain that way.
@belz Sorry for your lousy grades.
Mark
You're not alone in your experience / sentiment towards PSA at the moment.
There is zero consistency in their grading right now - other than being extremely harsh on anything that is not ultra-modern. Whether it's due to inexperienced graders or just a tightening up of the grading standards - no one outside of PSA really knows. But, many well-versed submitters are not pleased with the results they are receiving. And many, including myself, have stopped sending in anything for grading right now. It is just not worth it.
What I’m seeing is a complete disregard for their own published standard.
I also see that is you have say a card that’s a $50 card in 8, you’ll get the 8 BUT if it’s a $200 card in 8 you’ll get the 7. My submission that popped yesterday and another this morning were both that way. If it’s an expensive card, guaranteed you will get a grade or 2 lower than what you expect.
When 90% of the submitters here are all saying the same thing. Something is up
Sorry to hear, and the hobby is really in trouble if this trend continues.
If PSA doesn’t realize that customers will walk away from their product soon, then we’re all in uncharted territory.
Forum members on ignore
Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
it appears they are grading the surface tougher. any small issues with the cardboard itself, not necessarily the colors or print dots, seems to be taken more into account than let's say 10 years ago. I examined my last order and I found that the surface issues that I overlooked when i sent them in, were the main problem.
I think the 1970's psa 10's are going to be bought up in a hurry due to this. Just won't be that many 10's for that decade. I will say there were slight issues with surfaces on the ones that got 7's.
But I did get some decent graded
1976 carew psa 9
2 1974 jacksons psa 8
1974 winfield psa 8
2 1976 bench's psa 8
1978 munson psa 9
and many 1979 and 1980 psa 9's.
but sprinkled in were several psa 7's.
You're right. PSA is definitely turning off all the vintage collectors and graders with their current process. I've spoken to several PSA-only folks who are seriously considering changing to a different grading company over this, and I don't blame them.
I'm a PSA-only guy, but the number of cards I have that I'll send to them is probably no more than 1/3 what it was before the shutdown. At this point I'll only send in ones that are as pristine as a modern right out of the box. Everything else I'll probably send to SGC. That way I'll have a decent shot at more 9s and 10s even if they're not all PSA.
Companies in all fields lose their market share over time, and it's generally due to self-inflicted decisions. Seems like the same happening here.
I worry about this. Will the market get flooded with under graded beauties and what affect will that have overall? How will this play out long term? There are so many possibilities!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I think that PSA-8s, 8.5s, 9s and 10s vintage (1980 and earlier) would be more valuable. JMHO
You should experiment and crack a few out, send them to SGC and CGC and see what they say....
It is ridiculous. Besides packs, since Steve Hart is the draw there, I don't understand why anyone would put PSA on a pedestal over others. The rush to hire during the surge was enough for me to realize a lot of these new graders either have no clue or have no history or experience with grading cards. Now how many thousands of "overgraded" cards are out there in old slabs?
Great opinions for sure and thx for the validation. I can let myself go down a rabbit hole with this whole thing but I’m probably just going to let it go for now. If I can figure a half way decent way to crack them out and resub to sgc that’s probably a good option.
It truly is a problem for PSA and customers like us who have been collecting/investing for 35 plus years.
I have an incredible PSA 9 Brett that according to what I submitted would have received a 7 in this grouping, no doubt.
I can go on, but like I said..feel better letting it go. This forum is great for something like this so thank you.
Welcome back and sorry to hear you got slammed. Many of us are in the same boat.
Regarding buying up older 10s, I never bought into the hype and I'm even less sold now that standards have tightened again. Would PSA grade those 10's from 2016 as a 10 today? If not, what are you really buying? In my opinion, 10s are the most subjective grade. I've kept most of the small percentage of 10s I've received in my subs over the years but I never buy them on the open market. What I've received 10s on haven't been notably better than the stronger 9s I've received back. I recall one specifically that I was not even going to submit due to a light machine grove on the surface. Why that got a 10 and other strong 9s didn't is a head scratcher.
I have about 15 I plan to crack and I probably will on resubmit 1/3 of them. Not sure who I'm going to have grade them at this point. One of them is a LBJ bazooka with Joe rookie gold that hit an 8. As a 9 I would have made money with the price I paid for the card raw with grading but as an 8 in the PSA slab I will lose.
Maybe the graders are looking for our cards on ebay to buy and get regraded by themselves/friends for a bonus. Doubtful but you never know.
One of my favorite things in the hobby has been to crack those and send to PSA. It makes me really check the cards more thoroughly than raw, and I've generally done pretty well at getting the same grade or higher. Now I will probably have to start going the other direction!
This change is great for those already holding high grade - in lots of cases, now over graded- slabs. And those that simply collect and don’t see this as investment.
Being able to get yesterdays 9s in 7 wrappers creates a fantastic buying opportunity. Just bought a card I chase, newly graded a 7, that looks better then my current stack of 8’s. 40 bucks for a second year card of a top 5 NHL player all time. Will prob crack it and put in a CS1.
Does suck for those that have stacks waiting to be graded but thats a potential problem for PSA, not me. Just means my stack of cards stays in CS1’s.
A wise man once said, if a grading leader such as PSA would only take the extra 10 seconds to provide feedback on why each card received the grade it did (ex: sub-grades), all of this frustration could be avoided. Of course the grading company would then have the issue of explaining how a card with 9 corners, edges, surface and reverse along with a 10 centering received an overall grade of 7.
Good to see you posting Belz. Sorry for the crappy grades and hope you have better luck next time. Don’t be a stranger on here,
KC
They could generate more revenue more quickly and consistently by assigning higher grades and upcharging due to the higher values. I can't understand how consciously choosing to grade more strictly is a good business model when so many of us would submit many more cards if we were satisfied with the consistency of the product currently being offered.
Or maybe those holding high grade cards have fairly graded cards? I personally have a 1955 Jackie Robinson that is a beauty, every collector, dealer I showed it to said 7 maybe 8, it came back a 5 somI understand the frustrations with PSA. IF I ever submit any vintage again it will be to SGC.
I think we are saying the same thing.
But if your 5 used to be a 7 or 8, and PSA has moved the goal posts, then by the new grading scale those legacy cards are over-graded. Same way that 5 years ago we would say those cards in 15 year old flips, that were based on THAT older standard, were over graded.
And herein lies the problem with changing the grading standards. What good is grading if we don’t have a common understanding on what a mint card is?
I think all the grading companies are tough on color bordered cards(like baseball 71, 75, 87 topps)
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I have noticed that values for PSA 8 or higher cards, including commons, have risen significantly over the past few years, perhaps indicative of shrinking supply. As a collector, I have noticed in general that PSA has gotten tougher on vintage though not as harshly as some other seem to feel. I think part of that may be the byproduct of grading mostly modern cards on a daily basis so when the graders finally see vintage card stock across the desk they are a bit harsher than they should be.
This is also why buying the card, and not the grade on the flip, has always been the best advice, as those cards will always measure up no matter when they were graded or what era the flip is from.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Haven’t modern cards been around since 1990 ?
I realize there’s more today, but they’ve always handled modern.
Forum members on ignore
Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Thx KC and others…cool to be back..looking forward to checking out other posts. Some of my higher end psa rookie cards will be in the November big HA auction. Need to balance out the negative madness. Hope you’re well.
Tim’s comment on buy the card is what I’m hopeful for down the road with these recent cards. I’m over it for now, was just shocked yesterday and realize there is now very little credibility in grades anymore. Buy an older flip and reholder…it’s all a mess in the wild.
The volume of modern and non sports cards being graded today dwarfs anything PSA has seen from past years. Not even close.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Everyone (I included) thinks their cards are better than the assigned grade. In a recent review (1961 Mantle PSA-7.5 and 1955 Koufax PSA-7)…my initial reaction was being very upset when grades posted w/no bump. I was almost livid! Then…when the cards arrived back to me, there were sticky notes on each card pointing to the reason that neither was bumped ( a practice that I would hope PSA embraces going forward w/tougher grading standard in place). After critically reviewing the cards again when in hand and focusing on the point of contention…I felt that both cards were properly graded and justifiably not bumped. Either way ( bumped or not)…each card stands on its own merit and presents very well. In the end…I think the review was fair.
I would like to see someone from PSA (Reza?) make a video discussing PSA's philosophy on the grading standards and how they've evolved since PSA's inception and what PSA does to ensure consistent standards across graders, particularly in light of all the new graders that have been hired in the past three years.
We all have our theories but it would be nice to get feedback from the horse's mouth.
It would be nice if they did that but they never will.
question about all of the "overgraded" cards that have been referenced a few times, are they overgraded or are the correctly graded? If today's cards are "undergraded" , does that make them correctly graded? Makes your head spin. lol
So is it the opinion that PSA would rather grade modern as it’s much easier because of everything being pack fresh? Or is it because the graders are seeing so much pack fresh they’ve gotten accustomed to that and see vintage and blast it?
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Or (to go deep down a conspiratorial hole) maybe they use the modern as the template because more cards are being graded there and they want to keep that gravy train rolling? Vintage has to be a smaller market share and tighter grading keeps the grading spread/market more stable?
I'm not saying I believe any of that, but it could be plausible.
yeah usually (90%) of the time it's easier to understand once you examine he card more carefully. The surface issues like I said before. seem to be a grade difference than 10 years ago, in some instances. Not all.
So it that’s the case, why would anyone buy an older graded card? What PSA would be doing is devaluing many collections. I think it’s the inexperienced graders.
I am very happy with my vintage collection of older PSA 9's and will continue to buy older flips when the price is right. I will never crack out a 9 and try to resub now for an upgrade, even though I know I may have a few 10's sitting in 9 cases. When it is time for me to sell, I think the older flips will only go up in value due to the scarcity of high grades. I believe that due to the current grading standards, there will be a greater demand for higher graded cards. I know the old adage is to buy the card not the grade, but I think this might change for collectors to buy the grade instead of the card.
This thought absolutely crossed my mind. It may not be but I was not born yesterday. We will start massively undergrading your cards and then we will heavily market this idea that you should sell the cards that we grade. All this talk of people being very upset with vintage grades coincides with this option to list with Goldin. Pick which cards you want to keep and which you want to sell. Look you have all these great choices. Now that you have been royally hosed by us and your dollar is worth a quarter, please sell your quarter, that is actually a dollar wink wink, through us. If any of your dollars are still dollars keep those, in our vault or we ship it back to you. But all this stuff you no longer like because of our opinion of it. Sell it. Sell that stuff. Please. Let us help. We will help you move that junk. The timing feels a little too raised eyebrow and convenient. Could be no connection at all but there is no way on Earth I will let them undergrade my card and then work with them to put it on the market so it can be bought cheap. Then submitted to SGC for a huge increase in value or reevaluated by them for an improved grade and a nice bump in value. I'll keep it and send it to SGC myself. And the whole game of sending vintage to see what PSA thinks of it, for the most part is over. Maybe a handful that were originally bought with the intention to go there, that fit with other cards of the same year I have in PSA holders. But if those grades are awful, crossover attempt with them too.
This use to be a paid service by PSA. That probably answers that 10 second question. I’m not sure if they still offer the review service.
With the exception of centering, print defects, focus, and to some degree corners and edges, it is usually very difficult to judge the accuracy of a grade when buying online. A card with a grade of 5 might appear to be undergraded when examining the scan or photo of the card on your computer monitor or phone, but when you receive the card and are able to examine it more closely the reason(s) for the low grade might become readily apparent. That surface wrinkle or indentation that was not detectable online all of a sudden is and the basis for the assigned grade becomes clear, revealing that you did not in fact purchase an undergraded card. One of the reasons why third party grading became worthwhile is that it is supposed to take most of the risk out of purchasing cards that you are unable to examine in person. If that is no longer the case, then I will personally no longer have any need for third party grading.
I would agree that holding the card in hand is very important to accurately assess the grade and that surface issues are often undetectable from a computer screen, but there are also higher end and lower cards within the same grade, too, and I've passed on PSA 9s to keep higher end 8s for my sets because I liked the 8 better.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
At the National I took two of my higher end cards to SGC and had their big wigs look at them and let me know if they would cross and bump. Was told they were gorgeous cards, but they showed me two things where i was like ok I can see it now and thank you for pointing it out - said it would bump maybe 20% possibly 30% or the time. IMO a service where they show you the flaws would be worth it, but it would also lower their subs if people know why and won’t try to cross/bump.
Here are two examples - one where I know the issue and one where I scratch my head. The 56 Mantle looks like a 7/8, but in a photo you cannot see it but in the right border there is a small indentation at the correct angle so the grade is spot on. Eye appeal wise it looks as nice as my 8’s I own.
On the 58 Mantle I can’t tell you why it is not an 8 nor have I tried to bump. Several have seen it in person and show me an 8/8,5 that looks better. Centering, color, corners…. Finally agreed to sell it to a fellow collector but he backed out due to $$ issues and in a way I am glad I kept the card. Don’t think I can pay $15k for an 8 that would look as nice.
They’ve always handled plenty of modern.
It’s not only the 9’s now 8’s
It’s the 6’s now 5’s.
So much confusion.
Forum members on ignore
Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
In the end I really think we are analyzing this too much. The graders (probably quite inexperienced) have a certain quantity and quota on a daily basis in order to move things along so PSA doesn’t ever run into backlog again. Regardless of the reason, the concern for getting a numerical grade correct is not priority…this is clear as day to me. Can you imagine a young adult getting a job handling an expensive card, assigning a grade and moving on to the next card etc…nobody cares and who’s checking for accuracy? Nobody.
Like I said in the beginning, I’m glad my nice cards are slabbed but there’s zero chance I’m selling any of them while grades and price go hand in hand-there’s nothing equal about it anymore in my eyes. I’m a psychotherapist…if a patient comes in and describes a sad situation but laughs instead, I’m not believing it’s funny just bc they’re laughing.
Received 6 6’s on 80’s including the below. Nines would have been disappointing. No surface issues, nada. I have been subbing for 25 years and have not received one 6 on 80’s, let alone 6. They are factory set and the graders are not likely educated on these, however I received two sixes on non factory set issues. Again, this is stealing.
Dan, nice Mint card in a 6 holder
I have several similar experiences in the last 6 months.
Whoever graded that card needs to be relieved of his job duties
I spoke with someone who supposedly was a manager of quality who admitted he knew zero about grading. Quality is for making sure the card is encapsulated and shipped out smoothly. There is no double checking the quality of the grades given. Those Quality levels 6 and 7 is basically taking the final pictures and posting them before shipping
Another beautiful 6, again no surface issues
I honestly cannot see why anyone would still be subbing vintage cards. This strict grading has been happening for close to 2 years now with no end in site. Keep your ungraded cards in your safes and safety deposit boxes until PSA can get a handle on this.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Exactly
Why throw away money
Forum members on ignore
Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Yes, I am done. Obviously, these are not high dollar cards, however a standard is a standard and that has changed.
I had a 27 card sub of 80’s special. Opened 5 boxes of ‘87 and 2 boxes of ‘88 Topps football. I sent in 27 cards that should’ve been around PSA 9 quality. I was hoping for mainly 9’s with some 8’s and 10’s and a couple cards I was hoping for 8’s but could see 7’s. What I received was much lower. I got a couple 5’s, a few 7’s, mostly 8’s with a few 9’s. I was trying to upgrade my PC with this submission. I was able to upgrade one card. An absolute train wreck. The cards are probably worth half of what grading them cost. I will be taking a break from grading for a while.
@dan89 i just received a different Bo Jackson with similar results.
Nice Bo 10 in a five holder!!! For real that is dime quality for that issue and top to bottom is always an issue and this one is dead nuts.