If you look at the pathology you can see that some subject develop on only one or two different directions. Assimilate with the a specific kind of behaver we will mark the name before the diagnostic.
Are mean that this subject develop directional to "prices".
PS : On 26 years in Obstetric - Gynecology. Radio Oncology and Medical Sport Imaging, on my estimate I was successful in 60 to 70 % of the patients to eradicate this diagnostic.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Addendum: If I was trying to sell this coin for $20k i would try to justify my asking price.
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
He has a responsibility as a professional to explain his reasoning offering such a high price and clearly disputing the TPG opinion.
If you do not think he has any responsibilities posting merchandise without clarification then you relegate the hobby to a simple "catch lightning in a bottle" marketing strategy.
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
He has a responsibility as a professional to explain his reasoning offering such a high price and clearly disputing the TPG opinion.
If you do not think he has any responsibilities posting merchandise without clarification then you relegate the hobby to a simple "catch lightning in a bottle" marketing strategy.
I said that I didn’t think explaining his reasoning would make a meaningful difference - I didn’t comment about his responsibilities as a professional seller.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I appreciate when dealers offer an explanation or reasoning as to why they are asking higher than average prices for a coin. That being said, I don’t see how any type of reasoning can justify why a $30 coin is being listed at $20,000.
I would wager a large sum that the coin was purchased under $100, Sure, we can convince ourselves that it’s “his prerogative” , but I would never condone egregious overpricing, whether it’s numismatics or any other type of business. If my grandmother called a plumber who quoted her $10,000 to replace a toilet, I would be on a flight the next day making a trip to his office.
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
He has a responsibility as a professional to explain his reasoning offering such a high price and clearly disputing the TPG opinion.
If you do not think he has any responsibilities posting merchandise without clarification then you relegate the hobby to a simple "catch lightning in a bottle" marketing strategy.
I said that I didn’t think explaining his reasoning would make a meaningful difference - I didn’t comment about his responsibilities as a professional seller.
@MapsOnFire said:
That seller has carried that Columbian in his stock as a "proof" for 3 or 4 decades. It never looked like a proof to me, nor to anyone else I know. He has many other coins with MOON prices, especially early dollars. He's still a great guy; everyone trusts him.
Looking at the prices of some others in that store, I can definitely see that this gentleman doesn't mind holding inventory for a long while.
Though his prices are robust, every now and then he has a coin that I cannot resist for its look and quality. This Long Island from this seller is one of my favorite circulated, classic commemoratives.
After reading this thread the only questions I have are if he doesn't agree with the TPG why doesn't he crack it out and sell it raw calling it whatever he thinks it is. As a seasoned dealer he should know what the coin is and likely truly believes it to be a proof.
If NGC or PCGS disagrees with him the only choice is to put his reputation behind it.
If someone buys it and has it graded after paying $20,000 would he have a problem?
Is this why he leaves it in the holder?
It really does look "different" thank the others. That's what I don't understand. If it's not a proof would it the be considered PL?
Why wouldn't the TPG add that to the slab?
@Watchtower said:
After reading this thread the only questions I have are if he doesn't agree with the TPG why doesn't he crack it out and sell it raw calling it whatever he thinks it is. As a seasoned dealer he should know what the coin is and likely truly believes it to be a proof.
If NGC or PCGS disagrees with him the only choice is to put his reputation behind it.
If someone buys it and has it graded after paying $20,000 would he have a problem?
Is this why he leaves it in the holder?
It really does look "different" thank the others. That's what I don't understand. If it's not a proof would it the be considered PL?
Why wouldn't the TPG add that to the slab?
Because it was deemed 'Polished'
DPOTD-3 'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
@ajaan said: Is it ethical to call this coin a proof........
The logical extension of the OP's question is that the eBay seller is unethical.
Seems like a typical forum piling-on reaction. I would ask if it's "unethical" for any of us to have an opinion?? Isn't that what the seller has offered, his opinion?? Then he listed what he feels is a reasonable price based on his opinion. The single most unappealing thing about this forum is threads and opinions like those contained in this thread. We can disagree with each other but why does it so often go past that??
Do some deep diving into the archives and you'll see that Dennis, @JadeRareCoin and later @numisma, once had a Columbian Half-Dollar that was discussed at length here. He wasn't called "unethical" because he thought so. Strangely, the subject eBay seller, who is/was a member here, gave an opinion in the thread on page one. That member @Julian, is a well respected dealer with many years in the Hobby, he isn't just some hack.
@Maywood said: @ajaan said: Is it ethical to call this coin a proof........
The logical extension of the OP's question is that the eBay seller is unethical.
Seems like a typical forum piling-on reaction. I would ask if it's "unethical" for any of us to have an opinion?? Isn't that what the seller has offered, his opinion?? Then he listed what he feels is a reasonable price based on his opinion. The single most unappealing thing about this forum is threads and opinions like those contained in this thread. We can disagree with each other but why does it so often go past that??
Do some deep diving into the archives and you'll see that Dennis, @JadeRareCoin and later @numisma, once had a Columbian Half-Dollar that was discussed at length here. He wasn't called "unethical" because he thought so. Strangely, the subject eBay seller, who is/was a member here, gave an opinion in the thread on page one. That member @Julian, is a well respected dealer with many years in the Hobby, he isn't just some hack.
I agree. The seller isn't hiding anything. And identifying proofs in this period isn't always automatic.
I'm a little concerned about the details grade but a local collector had a Columbian straight grade MS65 which really looks SP or PR. Tremendous strike, squares rims, etc.
The coin shown doesn't look exceptional on the obverse, but the reverse does have strike characteristics that would at least cause one to ask the question: is it a proof? Being wrong is not unethical nor is disagreeing with a TPG.
Why are some folks trying to turn this into a discussion about "ethics"? Julian has forgotten more coins than I might ever see in my lifetime. If he believes the coin to be a proof, you or I might agree or not, but that doesn't deprive him of a right to his opinion. I have actually seen that coin in-hand and do not believe it to be a proof, but it does have some qualities over which an argument might be made.
Julian, God love him, can get stubborn on coins he likes. Frankly I think this isn't a proof but more likely an early business strike piece that may have been perhaps struck with recycled dies used on the proofs. There are some other PL looking pieces out there that I suspect came from this same die pair. I think that in this case, one side had some toning that a previous owner didn't like and unfortunately he/she cleaned it, leading to the grade on the label. But Julian's convinced it's one of the proofs. For $20K it's going to sit around until he can get the PF designation on the label.
Please ask to see the coin in person. There have been many disagreements proof/commercial strikings in all of numismatics. I am not G-d, but neither are any of the services. I am entitled to my professional opinion, as I have been doing this now for several weeks.
@therealjulian said:
Please ask to see the coin in person. There have been many disagreements proof/commercial strikings in all of numismatics. I am not G-d, but neither are any of the services. I am entitled to my professional opinion, as I have been doing this now for several weeks.
Julian, you’ve given new meaning to the words “several weeks”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Funny how it never seems to work out a dealer owns a slabbed expensive certified coin labeled Proof yet believes it is a common business strike that has been cleaned.
@braddick said:
Funny how it never seems to work out a dealer owns a slabbed expensive certified coin labeled Proof yet believes it is a common business strike that has been cleaned.
This is what I was wondering. In law, an "admission against interest."
I'll bet Mr J has made some at one time or another.
Why doesn’t this dealer take his evidence that the coin is a proof directly to NGC and get them to change the label? NGC is very easy to communicate with and will listen to a rational explanation.
Wasn’t there a dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins? I see no difference in this case except laziness. This guy has a polished coin and just calls it whatever he wants, despite the respected tpg slab. He could at least fake the slab/insert to match the p.o.s. inside.
@braddick said:
Funny how it never seems to work out a dealer owns a slabbed expensive certified coin labeled Proof yet believes it is a common business strike that has been cleaned.
You wouldn't know. They would break it out and sell it that way.
@1madman said:
Why doesn’t this dealer take his evidence that the coin is a proof directly to NGC and get them to change the label? NGC is very easy to communicate with and will listen to a rational explanation.
Wasn’t there a dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins? I see no difference in this case except laziness. This guy has a polished coin and just calls it whatever he wants, despite the respected tpg slab. He could at least fake the slab/insert to match the p.o.s. inside.
That's ridiculous. You think it would be better for him to hide the disagreement with a FAKE label? No one is forced to buy that coin based on his opinion just like you aren't forced to buy AT coins that the TPG's have straight graded.
How is disagreeing with a label the same as doctoring coins or faking a label?
@telephoto1 said:
Julian, God love him, can get stubborn on coins he likes. Frankly I think this isn't a proof but more likely an early business strike piece that may have been perhaps struck with recycled dies used on the proofs. There are some other PL looking pieces out there that I suspect came from this same die pair. I think that in this case, one side had some toning that a previous owner didn't like and unfortunately he/she cleaned it, leading to the grade on the label. But Julian's convinced it's one of the proofs. For $20K it's going to sit around until he can get the PF designation on the label.
I saw a Columbian in hand that I thought was 50/50 a proof. Incredible strike. Squared rims and well defined denticles. Absolutely flat fields with great reflectivity. NGC called it an MS64. I still think it could be a proof as does the coin owner and another dealer. NGC could be right, but it wouldn't be the first time they were wrong. It could be, as you say, a repurposed proof die or just a very early strike. This coin reminds me of the one I saw in hand, cleaning excepted. I just don't understand all the accusations. Julian isn't hiding anything.
@1madman said:
Why doesn’t this dealer take his evidence that the coin is a proof directly to NGC and get them to change the label? NGC is very easy to communicate with and will listen to a rational explanation.
Wasn’t there a dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins? I see no difference in this case except laziness. This guy has a polished coin and just calls it whatever he wants, despite the respected tpg slab. He could at least fake the slab/insert to match the p.o.s. inside.
Maybe he already discussed the coin with NGC and/or resubmitted it and they disagreed.
I don’t know of any dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins, but regardless, that has absolutely nothing to do with Julian and this coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the seller wants to try convince me that every one of his coins , conveniently, are undergraded by 1-2 full points (no cac stickers in sight, mind you), and every one of the "unc details" coins listed for the price of an equivalent straight graded unc is in fact incorrectly labeled as "cleaned", "questionable color", or "polished", be my guest. Im curious why someone would continue to patronize NGC, or even bother to have a coin graded if they disagree with NGC's opinion on every coin. I'm still waiting for for someone to yell "April fools!".
@DeplorableDan said:
If the seller wants to try convince me that every one of his coins , conveniently, are undergraded by 1-2 full points (no cac stickers in sight, mind you), and every one of the "unc details" coins listed for the price of an equivalent straight graded unc is in fact incorrectly labeled as "cleaned", "questionable color", or "polished", be my guest. Im curious why someone would continue to patronize NGC, or even bother to have a coin graded if they disagree with NGC's opinion on every coin. I'm still waiting for for someone to yell "April fools!".
Maybe he bought most or all of the coins in those holders and isn’t patronizing any particular grading company?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@1madman said:
Why doesn’t this dealer take his evidence that the coin is a proof directly to NGC and get them to change the label? NGC is very easy to communicate with and will listen to a rational explanation.
Wasn’t there a dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins? I see no difference in this case except laziness. This guy has a polished coin and just calls it whatever he wants, despite the respected tpg slab. He could at least fake the slab/insert to match the p.o.s. inside.
Maybe he already discussed the coin with NGC and/or resubmitted it and they disagreed.
I don’t know of any dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins, but regardless, that has absolutely nothing to do with Julian and this coin.
Wouldn’t you think this dealer would submit the coin to a tpg that agrees it’s a proof? Why leave it in an incorrect NGC slab? Crack it, sell it raw if he’s so confident.
So I can go take my garden shears and cut 6 clips into a new 2023 Bessie Coleman quarter, submit to NGC and get it in a details damaged holder, and sell it as a rare multiclip planchet for thousands of dollars?
Just because this guy has worked with coins for years doesn’t give him the right to rip people off. Senile is not an excuse. Illiterate is not an excuse either, read the NGC slab.
@DeplorableDan said:
If the seller wants to try convince me that every one of his coins , conveniently, are undergraded by 1-2 full points (no cac stickers in sight, mind you), and every one of the "unc details" coins listed for the price of an equivalent straight graded unc is in fact incorrectly labeled as "cleaned", "questionable color", or "polished", be my guest. Im curious why someone would continue to patronize NGC, or even bother to have a coin graded if they disagree with NGC's opinion on every coin. I'm still waiting for for someone to yell "April fools!".
Maybe he bought most or all of the coins in those holders and isn’t patronizing any particular grading company?
Perhaps, but that would only strengthen my viewpoint. If the coins were all purchased in their current holders, then that would suggest that the seller paid closer to fair market value at the time of purchase.
Mark, if this happens to be the subject that we finally disagree on, than so be it. Let me ask you though, when you were a dealer, did you ever list a coin at 13X retail price guide?
@DeplorableDan said:
If the seller wants to try convince me that every one of his coins , conveniently, are undergraded by 1-2 full points (no cac stickers in sight, mind you), and every one of the "unc details" coins listed for the price of an equivalent straight graded unc is in fact incorrectly labeled as "cleaned", "questionable color", or "polished", be my guest. Im curious why someone would continue to patronize NGC, or even bother to have a coin graded if they disagree with NGC's opinion on every coin. I'm still waiting for for someone to yell "April fools!".
Maybe he bought most or all of the coins in those holders and isn’t patronizing any particular grading company?
Perhaps, but that would only strengthen my viewpoint. If the coins were all purchased in their current holders, then that would suggest that the seller paid closer to fair market value at the time of purchase.
Mark, if this happens to be the subject that we finally disagree on, than so be it. Let me ask you though, when you were a dealer, did you ever list a coin at 13X retail price guide?
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
I disagree. He has another purportedly struck from a proof obverse die on eBay, which would imply some sort of diagnostic die marker. If that is the basis, I would absolutely identify those identifying diagnostics with sources linking them to known proof coins.
You’d think this guy could somewhat accurately grade after being in business for like 50 years.
I’d love to see his heirs take these priceless treasures to a coin shop and get a reality check on values. Don’t quit your day job kids.
I think you are wright, and I doubt that the original owner put the prices or one of his children's. To me seem a third generation from him, work with those coins and they go by the flow of the crazy newcomers prices. Seem to me they go more versus Etsy prices then collectable.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
I disagree. He has another purportedly struck from a proof obverse die on eBay, which would imply some sort of diagnostic die marker. If that is the basis, I would absolutely identify those identifying diagnostics with sources linking them to known proof coins.
PCGS and NGC have graded just one Proof example, each.
The NGC coin had an auction appearance, but its description didn’t mention any diagnostics. And I couldn’t find an offering of the PCGS coin. So I’d very much like to see proof of a Proof obverse die.
If Julian has such information, I’m going to give the young novice 😉the benefit of the doubt and guess that he’s already offered it to one or more of the major grading companies. But if not, perhaps he will choose to do so soon. That said, while I’d love to be wrong, I’m skeptical that there are any recorded diagnostics.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@therealjulian, I have never talked to you and I'm just some guy in the hobby. I have no right to interrogate you. But, as you can see from this post - your mode of posting coins slabbed as business strikes and pricing them as proofs is unconventional - maybe even "controversial."
Respectfully, the questions: why not break them out of their slabs and sell them raw, so as not to incite this kind of cognitive dissonance?
And, do folks buy them, knowing that the resale might be challenging? If a tenured personage like you, with a clientele, still has these coins sitting in inventory after months - how could an unknown collector like me ever hope to resell the item, or have my heirs resell it?
The 1829 half dime you have (in an NGC MS4 slab) is priced at $21k. I think it's a pretty coin. I might even pay a premium for it over the same die marriage without the eye appeal. But what's the upside of your owning it forever, never selling it, and inspiring the occasional outburst like this?
PS. Thanks @Watchtower for pointing out the man was present in the thread!
@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.
This. You took the words right out of my mouth.
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
I disagree. He has another purportedly struck from a proof obverse die on eBay, which would imply some sort of diagnostic die marker. If that is the basis, I would absolutely identify those identifying diagnostics with sources linking them to known proof coins.
PCGS and NGC have graded just one Proof example, each.
The NGC coin had an auction appearance, but its description didn’t mention any diagnostics. And I couldn’t find an offering of the PCGS coin. So I’d very much like to see proof of a Proof obverse die.
If Julian has such information, I’m going to give the young novice 😉the benefit of the doubt and guess that he’s already offered it to one or more of the major grading companies. But if not, perhaps he will choose to do so soon. That said, while I’d love to be wrong, I’m skeptical that there are any recorded diagnostics.
Maybe @FlyingAl can do a die analysis compared to auction appearances of a designated specimen.
I took a look, and discovered that there are no die markers that are unique to the proofs. What I mean by this is that there are die markers on all of the proofs, but they also appear on coins that are clearly MS. Therefore, the markers can't be used to distinguish the proofs from MS coins. I suppose they could be used to rule out suspected proofs as MS.
I could not see the die markers on Julian's coins (pictures weren't good enough).
With that all said, I do remember doing some research into these coins a while ago, and I remember at the conclusion of my research I had come to the conclusion that no proofs were struck. I believe my evidence was due to the lack of evidence of authorization, and the lack of medal press use. For whatever reason, I was unable to relocate my sources, so this is all my memory.
Do I find this Ebay listing unethical? Not really - it's pretty clear what NGC called the coin. However, I think it's a pretty bad look for the seller.
If was a proof for 1893??? Good question. 1892 has proof on same design and coins, so the logic will say 1893 could have also.
Markers??? No. From end of 17's the proof was strike twice. I think this will be the marker. Strike once or twice?. the proof in time do not necessary has special polish. After so many years and different storage environments and manipulations I thing to say Proof is just a speculation or personal point of view about the period and the different degrees of the coins.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN
In my area of interest, Capped Bust Half Dimes, I'm a skeptic about proofs. There's a spectrum between poorly struck coins (like the 1837 LM-2 and LM-3) and some of the really well struck ones (some of the early 1829 coins are hammered, frosty, mirrored coins). But I can't say I see a clear difference in proofs vs. business strikes, and that makes me averse to paying 20 times the price of a nice MS coin.
I'm also aware of oddballs like the 1884/1885 3 cent nickels, which (I believe) have MORE proofs than business strikes. I've heard talk of people actually taking a proof coin and wearing it down to appear to be the (rarer) non-proof. (That is CLEARLY unethical).
I like proofs that are unequivocal proofs. For example, some modern coins where the proofs were all made exclusively in San Francisco, and San Fran didn't mint any business strikes. The inclusion of that nice little "S" mintmark is a useful die marker! :-)
Comments
If you look at the pathology you can see that some subject develop on only one or two different directions. Assimilate with the a specific kind of behaver we will mark the name before the diagnostic.
Are mean that this subject develop directional to "prices".
PS : On 26 years in Obstetric - Gynecology. Radio Oncology and Medical Sport Imaging, on my estimate I was successful in 60 to 70 % of the patients to eradicate this diagnostic.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
That sounds fine and dandy. But on a practical basis, what do you think he could say that would make a meaningful difference?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
He could state somewhere in his listing that he disagrees with NGC’s designation and he thinks the coin is proof and nobody would think that he incorrectly listed the coin. It also would be helpful if he stated why he thinks the coin is proof.
Addendum: If I was trying to sell this coin for $20k i would try to justify my asking price.
Based on the asking price and listing of the coin as a Proof, it’s already obvious that he disagrees with NGC’s designation. And I don’t think there’s anything he could add/say that would make a meaningful difference. He could state multiple reasons why he thinks it’s a Proof, but who would buy the coin as such at anywhere near the asking price? No one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
He has a responsibility as a professional to explain his reasoning offering such a high price and clearly disputing the TPG opinion.
If you do not think he has any responsibilities posting merchandise without clarification then you relegate the hobby to a simple "catch lightning in a bottle" marketing strategy.
I said that I didn’t think explaining his reasoning would make a meaningful difference - I didn’t comment about his responsibilities as a professional seller.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I appreciate when dealers offer an explanation or reasoning as to why they are asking higher than average prices for a coin. That being said, I don’t see how any type of reasoning can justify why a $30 coin is being listed at $20,000.
I would wager a large sum that the coin was purchased under $100, Sure, we can convince ourselves that it’s “his prerogative” , but I would never condone egregious overpricing, whether it’s numismatics or any other type of business. If my grandmother called a plumber who quoted her $10,000 to replace a toilet, I would be on a flight the next day making a trip to his office.
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I agree with you 100% even your name it is "Deplorable"
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
OK I misunderstood.
Though his prices are robust, every now and then he has a coin that I cannot resist for its look and quality. This Long Island from this seller is one of my favorite circulated, classic commemoratives.
Julian has always treated me well, graciously showing me monsters.
His coin...
Random ebay auction
I’ll take the random coin all day long
After reading this thread the only questions I have are if he doesn't agree with the TPG why doesn't he crack it out and sell it raw calling it whatever he thinks it is. As a seasoned dealer he should know what the coin is and likely truly believes it to be a proof.
If NGC or PCGS disagrees with him the only choice is to put his reputation behind it.
If someone buys it and has it graded after paying $20,000 would he have a problem?
Is this why he leaves it in the holder?
It really does look "different" thank the others. That's what I don't understand. If it's not a proof would it the be considered PL?
Why wouldn't the TPG add that to the slab?
Because it was deemed 'Polished'
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
@ajaan said: Is it ethical to call this coin a proof........
The logical extension of the OP's question is that the eBay seller is unethical.
Seems like a typical forum piling-on reaction. I would ask if it's "unethical" for any of us to have an opinion?? Isn't that what the seller has offered, his opinion?? Then he listed what he feels is a reasonable price based on his opinion. The single most unappealing thing about this forum is threads and opinions like those contained in this thread. We can disagree with each other but why does it so often go past that??
Do some deep diving into the archives and you'll see that Dennis, @JadeRareCoin and later @numisma, once had a Columbian Half-Dollar that was discussed at length here. He wasn't called "unethical" because he thought so. Strangely, the subject eBay seller, who is/was a member here, gave an opinion in the thread on page one. That member @Julian, is a well respected dealer with many years in the Hobby, he isn't just some hack.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/350494/the-proof-1892-columbian-half-mystery-updated-6-14-06
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I agree. The seller isn't hiding anything. And identifying proofs in this period isn't always automatic.
I'm a little concerned about the details grade but a local collector had a Columbian straight grade MS65 which really looks SP or PR. Tremendous strike, squares rims, etc.
The coin shown doesn't look exceptional on the obverse, but the reverse does have strike characteristics that would at least cause one to ask the question: is it a proof? Being wrong is not unethical nor is disagreeing with a TPG.
Why are some folks trying to turn this into a discussion about "ethics"? Julian has forgotten more coins than I might ever see in my lifetime. If he believes the coin to be a proof, you or I might agree or not, but that doesn't deprive him of a right to his opinion. I have actually seen that coin in-hand and do not believe it to be a proof, but it does have some qualities over which an argument might be made.
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
Julian, God love him, can get stubborn on coins he likes. Frankly I think this isn't a proof but more likely an early business strike piece that may have been perhaps struck with recycled dies used on the proofs. There are some other PL looking pieces out there that I suspect came from this same die pair. I think that in this case, one side had some toning that a previous owner didn't like and unfortunately he/she cleaned it, leading to the grade on the label. But Julian's convinced it's one of the proofs. For $20K it's going to sit around until he can get the PF designation on the label.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Please ask to see the coin in person. There have been many disagreements proof/commercial strikings in all of numismatics. I am not G-d, but neither are any of the services. I am entitled to my professional opinion, as I have been doing this now for several weeks.
Julian, you’ve given new meaning to the words “several weeks”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Funny how it never seems to work out a dealer owns a slabbed expensive certified coin labeled Proof yet believes it is a common business strike that has been cleaned.
peacockcoins
I've been watching the price on his "proof" MS-64 half dime for a long time. It appears to be a lovely coin, although the photos are a little hard to parse. It's priced at $21,945. https://juliancoin.com/collections/half-dimes-1792-1873/products/1829-proof-capped-bust-silver-half-dime-5c-coin-ngc-ms-64-toned-proof-rare
I thought about calling up their shop and saying something like "did you mean $1,945?" but I don't think that would go over well.
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
This is what I was wondering. In law, an "admission against interest."
I'll bet Mr J has made some at one time or another.
Well here is your chance. He just posted so maybe you'll get an answer.
Why doesn’t this dealer take his evidence that the coin is a proof directly to NGC and get them to change the label? NGC is very easy to communicate with and will listen to a rational explanation.
Wasn’t there a dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins? I see no difference in this case except laziness. This guy has a polished coin and just calls it whatever he wants, despite the respected tpg slab. He could at least fake the slab/insert to match the p.o.s. inside.
You wouldn't know. They would break it out and sell it that way.
That's ridiculous. You think it would be better for him to hide the disagreement with a FAKE label? No one is forced to buy that coin based on his opinion just like you aren't forced to buy AT coins that the TPG's have straight graded.
How is disagreeing with a label the same as doctoring coins or faking a label?
I saw a Columbian in hand that I thought was 50/50 a proof. Incredible strike. Squared rims and well defined denticles. Absolutely flat fields with great reflectivity. NGC called it an MS64. I still think it could be a proof as does the coin owner and another dealer. NGC could be right, but it wouldn't be the first time they were wrong. It could be, as you say, a repurposed proof die or just a very early strike. This coin reminds me of the one I saw in hand, cleaning excepted. I just don't understand all the accusations. Julian isn't hiding anything.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/191836401112?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=E3DNVmR2SJ-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=vNwu7E9LSDO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Pcgs price guide -$4,000
Ask price : $37,493
https://www.ebay.com/itm/181640561729?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=E3DNVmR2SJ-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=vNwu7E9LSDO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Pcgs price guide - $5,000
Ask price - $30,745
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201550044291?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=E3DNVmR2SJ-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=vNwu7E9LSDO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Pcgs guide - $7,500
Ask price: $56,575
Need I say more?
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Maybe he already discussed the coin with NGC and/or resubmitted it and they disagreed.
I don’t know of any dealer who went to jail for doctoring coins, but regardless, that has absolutely nothing to do with Julian and this coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the seller wants to try convince me that every one of his coins , conveniently, are undergraded by 1-2 full points (no cac stickers in sight, mind you), and every one of the "unc details" coins listed for the price of an equivalent straight graded unc is in fact incorrectly labeled as "cleaned", "questionable color", or "polished", be my guest. Im curious why someone would continue to patronize NGC, or even bother to have a coin graded if they disagree with NGC's opinion on every coin. I'm still waiting for for someone to yell "April fools!".
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Maybe he bought most or all of the coins in those holders and isn’t patronizing any particular grading company?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Wouldn’t you think this dealer would submit the coin to a tpg that agrees it’s a proof? Why leave it in an incorrect NGC slab? Crack it, sell it raw if he’s so confident.
So I can go take my garden shears and cut 6 clips into a new 2023 Bessie Coleman quarter, submit to NGC and get it in a details damaged holder, and sell it as a rare multiclip planchet for thousands of dollars?
Just because this guy has worked with coins for years doesn’t give him the right to rip people off. Senile is not an excuse. Illiterate is not an excuse either, read the NGC slab.
You’d think this guy could somewhat accurately grade after being in business for like 50 years.
I’d love to see his heirs take these priceless treasures to a coin shop and get a reality check on values. Don’t quit your day job kids.
Perhaps, but that would only strengthen my viewpoint. If the coins were all purchased in their current holders, then that would suggest that the seller paid closer to fair market value at the time of purchase.
Mark, if this happens to be the subject that we finally disagree on, than so be it. Let me ask you though, when you were a dealer, did you ever list a coin at 13X retail price guide?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/190697829538?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=E3DNVmR2SJ-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=vNwu7E9LSDO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
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Not that I recall, Dan - no major disagreement, just yet.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I disagree. He has another purportedly struck from a proof obverse die on eBay, which would imply some sort of diagnostic die marker. If that is the basis, I would absolutely identify those identifying diagnostics with sources linking them to known proof coins.
I think you are wright, and I doubt that the original owner put the prices or one of his children's. To me seem a third generation from him, work with those coins and they go by the flow of the crazy newcomers prices. Seem to me they go more versus Etsy prices then collectable.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
PCGS and NGC have graded just one Proof example, each.
The NGC coin had an auction appearance, but its description didn’t mention any diagnostics. And I couldn’t find an offering of the PCGS coin. So I’d very much like to see proof of a Proof obverse die.
If Julian has such information, I’m going to give the young novice 😉the benefit of the doubt and guess that he’s already offered it to one or more of the major grading companies. But if not, perhaps he will choose to do so soon. That said, while I’d love to be wrong, I’m skeptical that there are any recorded diagnostics.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@therealjulian, I have never talked to you and I'm just some guy in the hobby. I have no right to interrogate you. But, as you can see from this post - your mode of posting coins slabbed as business strikes and pricing them as proofs is unconventional - maybe even "controversial."
Respectfully, the questions: why not break them out of their slabs and sell them raw, so as not to incite this kind of cognitive dissonance?
And, do folks buy them, knowing that the resale might be challenging? If a tenured personage like you, with a clientele, still has these coins sitting in inventory after months - how could an unknown collector like me ever hope to resell the item, or have my heirs resell it?
The 1829 half dime you have (in an NGC MS4 slab) is priced at $21k. I think it's a pretty coin. I might even pay a premium for it over the same die marriage without the eye appeal. But what's the upside of your owning it forever, never selling it, and inspiring the occasional outburst like this?
PS. Thanks @Watchtower for pointing out the man was present in the thread!
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
Mea culpa. The obverse proof die strike was an 1892 and no specifics about diagnostics were shared:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201033506390?hash=item2ece87de56:g:yb0AAOxyOlhS9UIH
1892 NGC PF 64 Columbian 50c:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/190765870913?hash=item2c6a882f41:g:vNgAAOxyK~hRG3rA
1893 Columbian Commemorative Half Dollar NGC UNC BU (PROOF)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/182465299416?hash=item2a7bc783d8:g:fmQAAMXQ8odRG8Nq
1893 Proof Columbian Commemorative Half Dollar, NGC Details (Polished)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/182372419517?hash=item2a763e47bd:g:qecAAMXQ8odRGpUY
All from Julian.
Maybe @FlyingAl can do a die analysis compared to auction appearances of a designated specimen.
I took a look, and discovered that there are no die markers that are unique to the proofs. What I mean by this is that there are die markers on all of the proofs, but they also appear on coins that are clearly MS. Therefore, the markers can't be used to distinguish the proofs from MS coins. I suppose they could be used to rule out suspected proofs as MS.
I could not see the die markers on Julian's coins (pictures weren't good enough).
With that all said, I do remember doing some research into these coins a while ago, and I remember at the conclusion of my research I had come to the conclusion that no proofs were struck. I believe my evidence was due to the lack of evidence of authorization, and the lack of medal press use. For whatever reason, I was unable to relocate my sources, so this is all my memory.
Do I find this Ebay listing unethical? Not really - it's pretty clear what NGC called the coin. However, I think it's a pretty bad look for the seller.
Edit: this was for the 1892s only.
If was a proof for 1893??? Good question. 1892 has proof on same design and coins, so the logic will say 1893 could have also.
Markers??? No. From end of 17's the proof was strike twice. I think this will be the marker. Strike once or twice?. the proof in time do not necessary has special polish. After so many years and different storage environments and manipulations I thing to say Proof is just a speculation or personal point of view about the period and the different degrees of the coins.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
The coin was also sent to PCGS. I assume they didn't call it a proof also.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
In my area of interest, Capped Bust Half Dimes, I'm a skeptic about proofs. There's a spectrum between poorly struck coins (like the 1837 LM-2 and LM-3) and some of the really well struck ones (some of the early 1829 coins are hammered, frosty, mirrored coins). But I can't say I see a clear difference in proofs vs. business strikes, and that makes me averse to paying 20 times the price of a nice MS coin.
I'm also aware of oddballs like the 1884/1885 3 cent nickels, which (I believe) have MORE proofs than business strikes. I've heard talk of people actually taking a proof coin and wearing it down to appear to be the (rarer) non-proof. (That is CLEARLY unethical).
I like proofs that are unequivocal proofs. For example, some modern coins where the proofs were all made exclusively in San Francisco, and San Fran didn't mint any business strikes. The inclusion of that nice little "S" mintmark is a useful die marker! :-)
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com