Counterfeit Civil War Token from China

EagleEye · December 20, 2010 4:58AM

These have the wrong edge, and are too heavy.

Just beware - they'll make anything!

coinsarefun · December 20, 2010 5:16AM

That's just sad, nothing is out of reach for these guys

BillJones · December 20, 2010 5:20AM

Counterfeit Civil War tokens were being made before the Chinese got into the game. It's hard to understand why they are bothering with this because a real token of these types is worth no more than $20. These Chinese counterfeiters make me want to puke.

EagleEye · December 20, 2010 5:25AM

A guy named Higgins was making fake Civil War Tokens in 1863! He took well-made Waterbury Button Company tokens and made copy dies from them. These are very popular with collectors and are known as "Indiana Primitives"

JamesMurray · December 20, 2010 5:52AM

<< Counterfeit Civil War tokens were being made before the Chinese got into the game. It's hard to understand why they are bothering with this because a real token of these types is worth no more than $20. These Chinese counterfeiters make me want to puke.

>>

Like the man said , they will copy anything and do.Even commen date nickels and dimes with low values,i think thats what makes it so threatening to collectors.The market could well be awash with low value fakes and probably is.

BillJones · December 20, 2010 6:01AM

I have a small collection of Indiana Primitives. I have an example of all of the Higgins' patriotic token dies except for the very rare #404. That is only found on the 9/404a variety, and it is very rare with just three examples known to my knowledge. I've turned down two of them because they were very worn and very ugly. It's hard to pay $3,000 or more for something that looks that bad.

Here is the original Monitor variety and Henry Higgins' Monitor. The dies copied from the Waterberry tokens are nice, but Higgins' own dies are much more interesting with their horns, flowers and uneven letters.

Original Monitor token

Copy by Henry D. Higgins with his "homemade" reverse.

This reverse is one of his more civilized works. Usually they looked more like this with a letter left off when he ran out of room. "Value me as you pleas"

Broadstruck · December 20, 2010 6:05AM

EagleEye, Most CWT's are crudly struck as is, so this is highly informative!!!

Teva · December 20, 2010 6:24AM

<< These have the wrong edge, and are too heavy.
Just beware - they'll make anything! >>

I am not saying your wrong but I would like to know how you conclude they are fakes from china with these two observations?
The minting of CW tokens by no means where under any strict manufacturing tolerances and there where many types minted.
I have recently started collecting CW tokens and the fact that most examples are raw makes it a fairly easy target for fakes.
So I am very intrested in why you believe these coins to be China fakes or are you useing China as a metaphor for counterfit?

JamesMurray · December 20, 2010 6:54AM

<< 

<< These have the wrong edge, and are too heavy.
Just beware - they'll make anything! >>

I am not saying your wrong but I would like to know how you conclude they are fakes from china with these two observations?
The minting of CW tokens by no means where under any strict manufacturing tolerances and there where many types minted.
I have recently started collecting CW tokens and the fact that most examples are raw makes it a fairly easy target for fakes.
So I am very intrested in why you believe these coins to be China fakes or are you useing China as a metaphor for counterfit? >>

Its possible to buy them knowing they are fake right off ebay and a lot of people do for whatever reasons.Whether it be seeing for themselves the quality of the copy and weight as well as composition or indeed others for more nefarious reasons.
Have a look through some of the chinese ebayers in replicas , they have thier own section , not bad eh ? Nothing goes uncopied.

EagleEye · December 20, 2010 7:09AM

After looking at thousands of CWT's you know when something it wrong.

EagleEye · December 20, 2010 10:29AM

I am not saying your wrong but I would like to know how you conclude they are fakes from china with these two observations?
The minting of CW tokens by no means where under any strict manufacturing tolerances and there where many types minted.
I have recently started collecting CW tokens and the fact that most examples are raw makes it a fairly easy target for fakes.
So I am very intrested in why you believe these coins to be China fakes or are you useing China as a metaphor for counterfit?

I got these from an eBay sale where they were sold as Chinese counterfeits with a bunch of other fakes (Bust half, and some Flowing Hair half-dimes). I paid $15 for 8 different fakes. None are deceptive. Some CWTs are crudely made (real ones). They are made quickly with little regard for quality. The edges of these fakes show extra tooling to make them rounded. A real CWT would not show this workmanship. Also, the fakes are about twice the thickness of the real CWTs. There are off-metal pieces and thick planchets of many CWTs but these are not one of those, again because of the edge treatment.

RedTiger · December 20, 2010 11:03AM

<< Counterfeit Civil War tokens were being made before the Chinese got into the game. It's hard to understand why they are bothering with this because a real token of these types is worth no more than $20. These Chinese counterfeiters make me want to puke.

>>

They do it because the fakes cost 2 cents to 25 cents to make depending on the quantity. Sell them for a $1 and that's a big profit, sell them near retail price of the real item at $15 to $20 and its a virtual goldmine for folks that might earn $100 month. It is unfortunate, but low value, low cost coins are no longer a place to hide from the counterfeiters. Tokens, foreign minors, common American coins such as Ikes, have all now been reported as far as finding modern fakes. Virtually everything is now suspect. It is sad, and it has the potential to ruin large swaths of the hobby.

For those that say education is the way out, I don't think so. Fewer than 5% of collectors will ever have enough expertise to authenticate against even the mid-level fakes. Sure, collectors can learn to be able to spot the crudest, cheapest fakes, with a bit of study, but the better counterfeiters often do a little homework and get the basics correct.

JamesMurray · December 20, 2010 11:12AM

<< 

<< Counterfeit Civil War tokens were being made before the Chinese got into the game. It's hard to understand why they are bothering with this because a real token of these types is worth no more than $20. These Chinese counterfeiters make me want to puke.

>>

They do it because the fakes cost 2 cents to 25 cents to make depending on the quantity. Sell them for a $1 and that's a big profit, sell them near retail price of the real item at $15 to $20 and its a virtual goldmine for folks that might earn $100 month. It is unfortunate, but low value, low cost coins are no longer a place to hide from the counterfeiters. Tokens, foreign minors, common American coins such as Ikes, have all now been reported as far as finding modern fakes. Virtually everything is now suspect. It is sad, and it has the potential to ruin large swaths of the hobby.

For those that say education is the way out, I don't think so. Fewer than 5% of collectors will ever have enough expertise to authenticate against even the mid-level fakes. Sure, collectors can learn to be able to spot the crudest, cheapest fakes, with a bit of study, but the better counterfeiters often do a little homework and get the basics correct. >>

Sadly you are correct , i've seen some of the base metal fakes , shield nickels and large cents and so on , they are the right weight and material as well as beautifully struck to the naked eye.They are known to use the correct silver content in high value fakes too.

johnny9434 · December 21, 2010 3:12AM

<< That's just sad, nothing is out of reach for these guys

>>

i know and what a pisser

JamesMurray · December 21, 2010 3:36AM

For as long as there is a market for these it will continue.I know as a community almost all coin collectors are of the same opinion that it's out of hand and dangerous to the hobby , but theres a lot of people buying these and it's commen knowledge the coin you recieve wont be marked copy so for now its a free for all and very much buyer beware.I don't just associate the fakes being sold with the Chinese , theres lot of dealers and ordinary ebayers making money off these at our expense.All you need to is look at the Chinese fake merchants feedback , overnight powersellers almost and a lot of red star buyers.Tells its own story.

mrearlygold · December 21, 2010 3:46AM

I just don't get it. HOW is this crap allowed to continue? WHERE are our "representatives" on this? Having freaking dim sum with the s.o.b's ??

They should get the rope and I'm not talking about the chinese.

Thanks for posting this.

ebaybuyer · December 21, 2010 3:51AM

educating thyself is the only way to avoid the fakes. i still see people bidding up chinese seated dollars, any person contemplating the purchase of a raw seated dollar should be well aware of the fakes, there is no excuse for ignorance of that caliber. "you can lead a person to education, but you cant force him to think"

JamesMurray · December 21, 2010 3:51AM

US Customs are not doing a good job , they can find time to bust open every package my Mom sends from the UK but these fakes from China are flooding the market.I know of a lot of dealers who have quietly sold up and got out the hobby.I was close to doing so as a collector but still on the edge with it...teetering.

mrearlygold · December 21, 2010 3:55AM

How long would it take for law enforcement to come-a-busting-your-door-down if a dealer was selling fakes on this website?

Why hasn't that happened to Ebay?

But then again, even Tiffany lost it's suit against those bas_tards. Unbelievable.

BillJones · December 21, 2010 3:58AM

Don't feed the pig!!!

Avoid eBay, or at least deal only with those dealers you know if you are buying on eBay at all. To me eBay is a menace to our hobby because they refuse to clean up their act.

JamesMurray · December 21, 2010 4:01AM

<< educating thyself is the only way to avoid the fakes. i still see people bidding up chinese seated dollars, any person contemplating the purchase of a raw seated dollar should be well aware of the fakes, there is no excuse for ignorance of that caliber. "you can lead a person to education, but you cant force him to think" >>

I think thats a somewhat weak argument , the days of educating oneself on replicas is past.The copies are flawless in every respect , weight , composition and well struck , they even fake circulated coins very well.Yes there are fakes that can be spotted but i can assure you there are many more that can't be even by experts.They fooled PCGS didnt they ?

JamesMurray · December 21, 2010 4:09AM

<< Don't feed the pig!!!

Avoid eBay, or at least deal only with those dealers you know if you are buying on eBay at all. To me eBay is a menace to our hobby because they refuse to clean up their act. >>

Im a long time power seller on the bay , 100% track record and i agree with you Bill.Perhaps as a community ( coin collectors ) who happen to be powersellers and hence making ebay a ton of money were to sign a petition outlining our concerns they would listen.A massive one day or one week boycott of all who sign the petition will get noticed.I don't just mean this forum , every coin forum.Most of the members here are members elsewhere.Maybe the future of coin collecting is in our own hands.
Hit them in the pocket i say , they understand that.

yellowkid · December 21, 2010 4:58AM

<< Counterfeit Civil War tokens were being made before the Chinese got into the game. It's hard to understand why they are bothering with this because a real token of these types is worth no more than $20. These Chinese counterfeiters make me want to puke.

>>

Why bother with something worth so little??/

JamesMurray · December 21, 2010 5:04AM

<< 

<< Counterfeit Civil War tokens were being made before the Chinese got into the game. It's hard to understand why they are bothering with this because a real token of these types is worth no more than $20. These Chinese counterfeiters make me want to puke.

>>

Why bother with something worth so little??/ >>

Many a mickle makes a muckle , it's that simple.

CIVITAS · December 21, 2010 5:55AM

FWIW, they are a match for these copies currently being offered on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/REPLICA-OLD-US-CIVIL-WAR-TOKEN-DATE-1863-COPY-/160521608177?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item255fd55bf1

http://cgi.ebay.com/REPLICA-OLD-US-CIVIL-WAR-TOKEN-DATE-1863-COPY-/160521608400?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item255fd55cd0

Teva · December 21, 2010 5:59AM

<< I am not saying your wrong but I would like to know how you conclude they are fakes from china with these two observations?
The minting of CW tokens by no means where under any strict manufacturing tolerances and there where many types minted.
I have recently started collecting CW tokens and the fact that most examples are raw makes it a fairly easy target for fakes.
So I am very intrested in why you believe these coins to be China fakes or are you useing China as a metaphor for counterfit?

I got these from an eBay sale where they were sold as Chinese counterfeits with a bunch of other fakes (Bust half, and some Flowing Hair half-dimes). I paid $15 for 8 different fakes. None are deceptive. Some CWTs are crudely made (real ones). They are made quickly with little regard for quality. The edges of these fakes show extra tooling to make them rounded. A real CWT would not show this workmanship. Also, the fakes are about twice the thickness of the real CWTs. There are off-metal pieces and thick planchets of many CWTs but these are not one of those, again because of the edge treatment. >>

Thanks EagleEye that is some very usefull information.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they would make
fakes of such low quality common coins.

Greynick63 · April 1, 2023 1:34PM

Greynick63 · April 1, 2023 1:36PM

People are trying to tell me this was fake…. Couldn’t be more real right from my grandfathers old chest in a tin box he got from his Dad.

Zoins · April 1, 2023 2:13PM

@EagleEye said:
A guy named Higgins was making fake Civil War Tokens in 1863! He took well-made Waterbury Button Company tokens and made copy dies from them. These are very popular with collectors and are known as "Indiana Primitives"

The Indiana Primitive counterfeits by Henry Darius Higgins of Mishawaka, Indiana seem to have quite a following, selling for thousands of dollars.

Zoins · April 1, 2023 2:15PM

@JamesMurray said:

@BillJones said:
Counterfeit Civil War tokens were being made before the Chinese got into the game. It's hard to understand why they are bothering with this because a real token of these types is worth no more than $20. These Chinese counterfeiters make me want to puke.

Like the man said , they will copy anything and do.Even commen date nickels and dimes with low values,i think thats what makes it so threatening to collectors.The market could well be awash with low value fakes and probably is.

This thread and these posts are from over 10 years ago.

From what I've seen, Civil War Tokens don't seem to have been hit very hard with modern counterfeits, but I mostly collect higher quality slabbed specimens. The situation with CWTs seems nothing like Morgan Dollars and other coins.

Counterfeit Civil War Token from China

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